Jesus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for more than 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.
You forget the parallel in Mark 3:28
28 I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. 29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
Clearly, this is not talking about any other sin except blasphemy of the holy spirit. It does not indicate that there are other sins. and the verse in matthew doesnt prove there is an age of purgatory.
"when this text says that the sin against the holy spirit will not be forgiven in this age or in the age to come, this is simply a jewish idiomatic way of saying that the sin will never be forgiven."
In this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell. So where is the rich man? He is not in hell... he is in purgatory.
The rich man is in hell, and Lazarus is in heaven. You show me a verse that says there is no compassion for the familys of those who are the way to hell unless they repent, and I will accept this. Its a parable. Hell is a place of weeping, weeping is an emotion, and compassion is an emotion. And your right, there is no suffering in heaven. Thats why lazarus is just chillin.
Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him. But there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.
Onesiphorus is not dead, he is never shown to be dead. That is an irresponsible assumption. I pray that God will have mercy on me in my daily life, that things go well, that what i plan succeeds. Since Onesiphorus is never shown to be dead, is it not irrational that Paul is praying that he be successful or something of the sort.
the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits were in purgatory.
It is not purgatory. All contexts of when it says "made perfect" refer to that exact moment when they accept Jesus into thier life.
Christ died for our sins, yes. But we can't use that as a free license to sin. As St. Paul tells us we must always work out our salvation with fear and trembling. It is an on going struggle for us Christians. We are commanded to go and sin no more and yet each day we all still sin.
No we cant use our salvation as a lisence to sin. Galations and Romans. Whats to work out? Paul doesnt tell us to continue to work out our salvation he tells us to keep faith in Jesus who died for us, and who purified us.
1 John 3:2
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is. 3 Everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as he is pure.
I have shown verse sthat say having faith in christ is what purifies us. From that moment and as long as we keep the faith. Part of the faith is knowing that we can sin and do sin.
That everyone who believes Jesus, knows what he did for us on the cross, and accepting that whole heartedly has been purified. "that when he appears" refers to the second coming, and is a bodily ressurection.
Acts 15:9
9 He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.
Purified, by faith. It Doesnt say they are purified in the age to come.
1PE 1:22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
"It is not that I have already taken hold of it or have already attained perfect maturity, but I continue my pursuit in hope that I may possess it, since I have indeed been taken possession of by Christ Jesus".
To be taken possession of by Christ does not mean that one has already arrived at perfect spiritual maturity. Paul and the Philippians instead press on, trusting in God.
In fact look a few verse down at 14:
"I continue my pursuit toward the goal, the prize of God's upward calling, in Christ Jesus."
St. Paul is working towards a goal, he doesn't freely have it. It is something even he had to work for!
I don't read it that way at all. I see it as Jesus telling us to follow His commandments. If you want to be perfect "sell your possessions" (do as I say). We are made perfect by listening to Christ day in and day out. Guess what? We are humans we sin, and we fall away, which is why Christ gave us the healing sacrament of confession.
Keep goin to verse 15
PHP 3:15 All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.
The term born again, makes you think of a baby believer. Well when you mature you should "take such a view of things." Yes you are saved, but thats no excuse to lag in devotion to Christ. That God will make it clear to you is to mean that God is not meant to be a complacent part of your life. Keep living the faith, Paul understood that he could turn his back anytime, but he urges you to press on torward the goal. IE Heaven. Paul later states in 2 Timothy
2 Timothy 4:7
7 "I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day..."
Paul believed in Christ right up till then end. He did not lose his faith even though he was a sinner. He knew about his crown in heaven. He did not say that he needed to be purified one last time before he could see heaven.
That is right - that is bad tradition (lowercase t). However the Bible does speak of real and good Tradition (The church uses a capital T).
"Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours." - 2 Thess. 2:15 -
Paul commands us to obey Sacred Apostolic Tradition. He says stand firm and hold to the Traditions which you were taught, either by word of mouth or letter. This verse proves that for apostolic authority, oral and written communications are on par with each other. Protestants must find a verse that voids this commandment to obey oral Tradition elsewhere in the Bible, or they are not abiding by the teachings of Scripture.
I do not disagree with what Paul says in 2 Thess.
"Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours." - 2 Thess. 2:15
The fact of the matter is that the scripture was taught vocally by Paul and the other apostles till it could be written down. I urge you to focus on either by a oral statement or by a letter of ours See Paul explicitly states where these traditions come from.
Read 2 Timothy 3:16
16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Paul doesnt pull these traditions out of a hat. They were taught by Jesus to the apostles. Of course you know this. But scripture is also useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training. If tradition does not match up with scripture you can not do it.
Read Acts 17:11
11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
If we are to recognize apostolic tradition as being true, we have to find it in the scriptures to see if its true. And because we have the writings of some of the original Apostles we can do that.
Jesus himself determined truth from scripture, and used it to prove his points over and over again. Since he was God, that also allowed him to teach new things to the apostles, which he did, and which they wrote down.
If you argue that well they didnt write everything down. Theres your answer right there. There you go to do it without scriptural support is wrong. Lets follow Jesus example in focusing on scripture.
To quote you
Paul commands us to obey Sacred Apostolic Tradition.
To examine these dates you gave me concerning the assumption and what not, they fall way beyond the end of the apostolic era. Which ended in roughly 100 A.D.
Therefore the Virgin is immortal to this day, seeing that he who had dwelt in her transported her to the regions of her assumption" (Homily on Simeon and Anna [A.D. 400]).
Thats some 400 years after the last apostle died! How can you rightly say that this was a teaching of the apostles when it didnt appear till then? Or any of your traditions appearing so long after.
You can quote Luther all day long, the fact is he is 1000 years after the fact, a bit late.
(continued below)
If so, why did Christ spend so much time using parables to teach?
Im getting tired.. I would have finished this along time ago but my lady friend called.
