Discussion Ex-Charismatics, thoughts on what this means and on their ideas.

robert skynner

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On that I agree.
Indeed, Paul agreed with that point as well.

1 Corinthians 12:30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?

Rhetorical question with the obvious answer: NO.

Thank you, that's my only point: not everyone spoke in languages then, therefore you cannot argue today that all could or should speak in languages today. I cannot tell you the number of times I've been told that as ALL Christians spoke in tongues on the day of Pentecost, therefore it is a give for every christian today.
 
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Dave-W

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I cannot tell you the number of times I've been told that as ALL Christians spoke in tongues on the day of Pentecost, therefore it is a give for every christian today.
That is an extreme version of classical pentecostalism; and is by no means mainstream, even among classical pentecostals.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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robert skynner

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I have just been looking at these:
Aorist (Ancient Greek) - Wikipedia
Perfective aspect - Wikipedia
Imperfect - Wikipedia
Can you explain how it supports the idea of "have believed" being limited to a few?

Not all speak in tongues, some ask for other gifts. These gifts are evidence someone has received Christ.


Hello Golden King, well the aorist is completed action in Greek, thus it's often translated as a past tense (to imply that the action has already taken place).
 
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robert skynner

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You are misreading the text. By verse 14 the "tongues" part of it was over. Peter was speaking to the crowd in either Aramaic or Hebrew, (probably Aramaic) which as Jews, they would have understood quite well, regardless of their home countries.

Yes i know that it was over, but my point is that the tongues speakers numbered 1 plus 11 = 12 not 1 plus 119 = 120.
 
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Dave-W

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Yes i know that it was over, but my point is that the tongues speakers numbered 1 plus 11 = 12 not 1 plus 119 = 120.
Maybe - and maybe not.

We are not given an actual head count in those first few verses to tell us exactly who was experiencing this unique gifting. So we really cannot say one way or the other. If it really mattered, Luke would have told us.
 
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robert skynner

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Maybe - and maybe not.

We are not given an actual head count in those first few verses to tell us exactly who was experiencing this unique gifting. So we really cannot say one way or the other. If it really mattered, Luke would have told us.


Yes we are told. At Acts 2:43 we are told that the signs and wonders (languages) were done by the APOSTLES who numbered 12, no 120 or 3,000 or 3,120. What does the Bible have to say to convince you?
 
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Dave-W

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Yes we are told. At Acts 2:43 we are told that the signs and wonders (languages) were done by the APOSTLES who numbered 12, no 120 or 3,000 or 3,120.
then signs and wonders of verse 43 were AFTER Peter's speech.

What does the Bible have to say to convince you?
Put "signs and wonders" BEFORE verse 14.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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I see, so to clarify you are a universalist who believes that unsaved people such as me will go to heaven, as you reject the concept of eternal conscious torment in hell. You stated clearly that I am unsaved, thus as an unsaved person, you believe that I will not go to hell, as no unsaved person goes to hell, you reject the concept .... right?

The Bible says that we must all give an account of ourselves to God in how we lived our lives. It also says that it is appointed for man once to die and after that comes the judgement. No one is condemned to hell at this present time because the day of judgement has not arrived. The invitation for people to accept and embrace Christ is extended, and those who take up the invitation will have confidence when they stand before Jesus Christ at the judgement. There is the story that Jesus told about the enemy who came along and planted weed among the wheat. The farmer couldn't uproot the weeds because some of the wheat would have been uprooted as well, so he waited until the harvest where the wheat and the weeds were harvested together. Then the weeds were sorted from the wheat and put on the rubbish heap and burned. The point of the story is that our world is made up of a mixture of people, and God is the only one who knows the heart of people. So we cannot judge from ourselves who will be saved and who will be condemned. God is the only judge. So, when the day of judgement comes, He will sort out those who He sees are right with Him and who are not. It will be then the decision will be made as to who will be condemned to exist in eternity outside of the joys of heaven. Jesus talks of people being cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. What I am saying to you now will be used in evidence at the judgement, that you are being warned about it. Also, your statement that you are not a born again Christian and that you reject Christianity will also be used as evidence in the judgement. I hope that your comments will not end up biting you in the hind quarters!
 
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OK so am I going to heaven then?
It's not up to me to say where you are going. That will be God's decision at the judgement. My previous posts explains it more fully.
 
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robert skynner

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It's not up to me to say where you are going. That will be God's decision at the judgement. My previous posts explains it more fully.

Are unbelievers in your God going to heaven or hell? Is everyone going to be saved or will some be lost, I am not specifically asking of any named individuals, I am just making general statements.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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God is like a star at the centre of Heaven, everything sources and returns to Him in loving worship. Heaven with unclean hearts and actions happening in it would not be Heaven. No murders of fornications... Then the clean can meet God as in the Beatitudes, and we move when we love. Love does no harm and builds up.
 
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robert skynner

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Also, your statement that you are not a born again Christian and that you reject Christianity will also be used as evidence in the judgement. I hope that your comments will not end up biting you in the hind quarters!

Christianity is used by many people today to refer to the corrupt Church system which they reject as anti-Christ, many people around the world are coming to a harsh and firm rejection of labels such as a born-again and evangelical Christian due to the scandals associated with these terms and people who use such terms. Thus many people around the world today have a faith, but not in these labels or in the church system. Allow me to illustrate, on a youtube channel called "exposing the wolves" you can see me outside Plymouth Christian Center asking 7 congregants, on camera, why I was told at an Alpha course at this church by two leaders that "Jesus was the Father, Son and Holy Spirit." By the way I was also told that Jesus made an atonement in hell to the devil and not on the cross by one of these Alpha leaders. I have asked for years, but nobody at this church will discuss these things with me, this church is an Elim Church is supposedly Trinitarian in it's doctrinal statement of faith, yet it's definition of the Trinity by several leaders is clearly modalism. This is the problem, on this video you can see me challenging these "Christians" on camera, the problem is that they call themselves Trinitarian but are in fact anti-trinitarian modalists, whilst my position is obviously creedal Trinitarianism, yet due to the fact that the so many evangelical Christians have abandoned the protestant / Trinitarian faith, I prefer as many others also do across the world to insist that I use no label to identify myself with this corrupt evangelical faith. I do argue the Bible, taking a solidly Trinitarianian and old time reformed position non most subjects, yet amazingly, people such as yourself don't listen to me and attack me, assuming that my position is like Richard Dawkins, when I do not share his convictions. Please do check out: "Seven Plymouth Christian Center Congregants deny the Trinity on video." I tire of your constant preaching, kindly address my questions rather than preach to me! Across the world many people are coming to regard much organised religion as opposed to Christ, I am one of these people, and you are wrong in condemning me, as nowhere in the Bible does it say or are we commanded to use words such as "I am born again," or "I am a Christian" in order to be saved. I would argue that the vast majority of Church people are lost and that using labels and titles, is actually irrelevant to your state before God. I believe that Christ will say to many church people ... "I never knew you" (Matthew 7), so joining some building and using a label on yourself i.e. saying "I am born again" is actually irrelevant to salvation. On one of my Youtube videos (Christian Comedy Channel), you can see brief video clips preachers dancing on tithe money (Creflo Dollar), telling congregants to eat grass (Leseco Daniel of South Africa), feeding a live rat to a congregant who then eats the tail (Prophet Penuel of South Africa), and many other things of a sexual nature on other video clips which are too disgusting to mention here, as the admins would not permit me to mention such disgusting sexual things which are incredible to see on my video as brief clips. One of my videos (The top 20 most evil black preachers) now has over 1 million hits! I am a man who will take no more of this blasphemy, the most evil and satanic people whom I have ever met are people who call themselves Christians, why is there so much sin and evil in the churches, and why is it that people such as you excuse sin and don't stop preaching to others, rather than getting your own house in order?
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Christianity is used by many people today to refer to the corrupt Church system which they reject as anti-Christ, many people around the world are coming to a harsh and firm rejection of labels such as a born-again and evangelical Christian due to the scandals associated with these terms and people who use such terms. Thus many people around the world today have a faith, but not in these labels or in the church system. Allow me to illustrate, on a youtube channel called "exposing the wolves" you can see me outside Plymouth Christian Center asking 7 congregants, on camera, why I was told at an Alpha course at this church by two leaders that "Jesus was the Father, Son and Holy Spirit." By the way I was also told that Jesus made an atonement in hell to the devil and not on the cross by one of these Alpha leaders. I have asked for years, but nobody at this church will discuss these things with me, this church is an Elim Church is supposedly Trinitarian in it's doctrinal statement of faith, yet it's definition of the Trinity by several leaders is clearly modalism. This is the problem, on this video you can see me challenging these "Christians" on camera, the problem is that they call themselves Trinitarian but are in fact anti-trinitarian modalists, whilst my position is obviously creedal Trinitarianism, yet due to the fact that the so many evangelical Christians have abandoned the protestant / Trinitarian faith, I prefer as many others also do across the world to insist that I use no label to identify myself with this corrupt evangelical faith. I do argue the Bible, taking a solidly Trinitarianian and old time reformed position non most subjects, yet amazingly, people such as yourself don't listen to me and attack me, assuming that my position is like Richard Dawkins, when I do not share his convictions. Please do check out: "Seven Plymouth Christian Center Congregants deny the Trinity on video." I tire of your constant preaching, kindly address my questions rather than preach to me! Across the world many people are coming to regard much organised religion as opposed to Christ, I am one of these people, and you are wrong in condemning me, as nowhere in the Bible does it say or are we commanded to use words such as "I am born again," or "I am a Christian" in order to be saved. I would argue that the vast majority of Church people are lost and that using labels and titles, is actually irrelevant to your state before God. I believe that Christ will say to many church people ... "I never knew you" (Matthew 7), so joining some building and using a label on yourself i.e. saying "I am born again" is actually irrelevant to salvation. On one of my Youtube videos (Christian Comedy Channel), you can see brief video clips preachers dancing on tithe money (Creflo Dollar), telling congregants to eat grass (Leseco Daniel of South Africa), feeding a live rat to a congregant who then eats the tail (Prophet Penuel of South Africa), and many other things of a sexual nature on other video clips which are too disgusting to mention here, as the admins would not permit me to mention such disgusting sexual things which are incredible to see on my video as brief clips. One of my videos (The top 20 most evil black preachers) now has over 1 million hits! I am a man who will take no more of this blasphemy, the most evil and satanic people whom I have ever met are people who call themselves Christians, why is there so much sin and evil in the churches, and why is it that people such as you excuse sin and don't stop preaching to others, rather than getting your own house in order?
Well yes, we hate the false teaching and abuse of new converts, like in Africa. We gave offerings for them and sent missionaries, and they must not be fed substandard teachings. Modalism being taught in a Trinitarian church is what seems to be the typical fringe group oddity that is used to give the mains a bad name.
 
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robert skynner

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Well yes, we hate the false teaching and abuse of new converts, like in Africa. We gave offerings for them and sent missionaries, and they must not be fed substandard teachings. Modalism being taught in a Trinitarian church is what seems to be the typical fringe group oddity that is used to give the mains a bad name.

Here in Plymouth, in the UK, evangelicalism is in such a bad state that many evangelical leaders are either modalists or tri-theists! I have been told so many times that Jesus is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit and that is the Trinity! I've also been told that Jesus became God at his baptism when he received the Holy Spirit, that God is three separate persons or even spirits. Honestly, I took a long hard look at both my own faith as well as the local churches and I have come to the conclusion that what calls itself Christianity, in my locality is mostly demonic, I feel so strongly that I refuse to identify myself with churches, with people who call themselves "born again," as I see nothing but evil and laziness in most evangelical churches which seem to be swayed so much by the nonsense which they see on Plymouth based GOD TV!
 
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robert skynner

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Well yes, we hate the false teaching and abuse of new converts, like in Africa. We gave offerings for them and sent missionaries, and they must not be fed substandard teachings. Modalism being taught in a Trinitarian church is what seems to be the typical fringe group oddity that is used to give the mains a bad name.

I left the church in 2010, for in the UK, many churches are putting ignorant and uneducated people in leadership positions, this is why people in many churches affirm the Trinity on their websites, but then such leaders will define the trinity as either modalism or tritheism. The endless sexual scandals, the false doctrine and the imbibing of the latest nonsense of Christian TV has lead me to completely reject what calls itself Christianity today. I am honestly done with church, I see no fidelity, no love for Christ in most who call themselves Christians and endless false doctrines and scandals in so many churches local to myself. I am not attacking or disrespecting people on this forum, neither am I naming specific churches local to myself. But with local papers listing a church sex scandal every six months or so, and the national press reporting on other scandals, I see no benefit to myself by associating with such people, in fact as I dislike hypocrisy, it's in my interest to avoid religion completely.
 
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robert skynner

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You are ignoring 1 Corinthians 12-14

No I'm not, I agree that after Acts 2 which is over a 20 year period, other people in Acts 10, Acts 19 and 1st Corinthians 14 also spoke in languages, I am not denying that, but it is completely irrelevant to the point which I am trying to make. Which is, that one the actual day of Pentecost only 12 men (not every Christian, not the entire 120 or the 3,000 converts spoke in languages). If I can prove this, (what happened 20 years later in 1st Corinthians 14 is irrelevant to my specific point), then I have proven that you can be a fully justified, saved, completely born-again (born from above) person, without ever speaking in tongues. If every single Christian spoke in languages in Acts 2 (as I have been told by some Pentecostals), then it has been argued and I have been told that without speaking in tongues today, I am not a real christian and all non-tongues speakers are actually lost and going to hell. So I am not arguing for cessationism in my post, I am attempting to prove that the Bible does not state that you must speak in tongues to be saved, Acts 2:13-15, 43 tells us quite clearly that as only 12 men spoke in tongues on the day of Pentecost, therefore both the 3,000 converts as well as at least 108 of the 120 were saved yet did not speak in tongues.
 
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robert skynner

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I am not really sure what difference that makes.

The point is the day it happened - Shavuot/Pentecost - the anniversary of God coming down on Mt Sinai with fire and smoke and speaking out the 10 commandments in 70 languages (for the mixed multitude gathered at foot of the mountain).

So the devout worshippers came out of the temple after the morning sacrifices and prayers with that image of God coming down on the mountain fresh in their minds and then Acts 2 happens. And since the streets are so narrow in the Old City, the only place spacious enough for the 3000 to hear and get baptized was at the Temple Mount.


I am also not sure what the events of Acts 2 have to do with being an EX charismatic/pentecostal.

Acts 2:43 and 2:13-15 proves that only 12 men spoke in languages on that day. By proving this you disprove the claim that I have heard for years, that EVERY Christian spoke in tongues on the day of Pentecost, all of the 120, the 3,000 converts so 3,120 were all speaking in tongues they'll claim, and form that they'll imply that if every single christian spoke in tongues in Acts 2, therefore they'll reason that all Christians ought to also speak in tongues today.
 
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Dave-W

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Acts 2:43 and 2:13-15 proves that only 12 men spoke in languages on that day.
No - it does not prove that at all. No numbers were given anywhere in verses 13-15, and 43 does not say anything about tongues. Go re-read the text.
By proving this you disprove the claim that I have heard for years, that EVERY Christian spoke in tongues on the day of Pentecost,
It cannot be used to support that claim either.

NO NUMBERS WERE GIVEN. Period.
 
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robert skynner

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No - it does not prove that at all. No numbers were given anywhere in verses 13-15, and 43 does not say anything about tongues. Go re-read the text.

It cannot be used to support that claim either.

NO NUMBERS WERE GIVEN. Period.


Yes, it does prove that not all Christians spoke in tongues on the day of Pentecost. Acts 2:14 mentions the number 11 .... "peter and the eleven." Also Acts 2:43 mentions the "apostles" who numbered 11 on that particular day: wonders and signs are the tongues.
 
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