Discussion Ex-Charismatics, thoughts on what this means and on their ideas.

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Obviously I have done that, repeatedly, I wrote to Reverend Lee (the pastor) twice, I have written the Liz the then leader of the entire Alpha course, no reply, and then I wrote to the General Superintendent of the Elim Church, who promised to look into this and then get back to me, which he never did. After writing all these letters with no response, only then did I seek to interview people outside this church.

After all that, bringing to social media is the next thing to do to make people aware and to ask questions. Perhaps when more people question them they might take the error in doctrine more seriously.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

In the UK is ELLEL Ministries, and Peter Horribin heads it. He does not consider modalists to be Christian at all.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

In the UK is ELLEL Ministries, and Peter Horribin heads it. He does not consider modalists to be Christian at all.

The main qualification for salvation is that a person believes that Jesus is the Son of God and that He rose from the dead. I believe that a person can take that position and still be a modalist. Such a person may have a good, new heart, but be a bit messed up in their minds about the nature of God. We do see through a glass darkly and consquently we do not have the clearest picture of these things.

From my reading of Revelation, there is a vast difference between an evil person who worships the beast and accepts his mark, and a believer who has accepted Christ as his Saviour regardless of what that person may think Christ actually is in relation to the wider nature of God. I think we will be surprised when we find out who is and who is not written in the Book of Life.

The test for a true believer is: "Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, He came in the flesh as an ordinary human being and that He rose from the dead?" If a person can answer those questions in the affirmative, we can be pretty sure that person is a genuine believer.

 

[robert skynner]

The main qualification for salvation is that a person believes that Jesus is the Son of God and that He rose from the dead. I believe that a person can take that position and still be a modalist. Such a person may have a good, new heart, but be a bit messed up in their minds about the nature of God. We do see through a glass darkly and consquently we do not have the clearest picture of these things.

From my reading of Revelation, there is a vast difference between an evil person who worships the beast and accepts his mark, and a believer who has accepted Christ as his Saviour regardless of what that person may think Christ actually is in relation to the wider nature of God. I think we will be surprised when we find out who is and who is not written in the Book of Life.

The test for a true believer is: "Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, He came in the flesh as an ordinary human being and that He rose from the dead?" If a person can answer those questions in the affirmative, we can be pretty sure that person is a genuine believer.

Modalists believe that the Son = the flesh of Jesus, they deny that the Son of God has two natures (fully God and fully man) instead modalists (I used to be one in the 1980s), teach that the Son is the human (flesh) nature.

 

[robert skynner]

The test for a true believer is: "Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, He came in the flesh as an ordinary human being and that He rose from the dead?"

Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses as well as modalists can each affirm this.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses as well as modalists can each affirm this.

That might mean that we might get some surprises about who we may see in glory with us when we see Jesus when He comes. Jesus is the final judge about who is written in His book of life, and not us. So we can't assume automatically that Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses cannot be converted to Christ and yet remain as they are. People can have good, new hearts for Jesus while still having their heads messed up. I would rather give people the benefit of the doubt, than play God by being their judge. Doesn't stop us trying to encourage to get their heads straight though.

If we start being God's assistant judges about who will get into heaven or who will be kept out, then we might get to the stage where we say that everyone is in danger of being rejected except you and me, and I have doubts about you.

 

[robert skynner]

.... Jesus is the final judge about who is written in His book of life, and not us. So we can't assume automatically that Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses cannot be converted to Christ and yet remain as they are.

Jesus himself at John 8:24 states that those who deny that he (the Son of man re verse 28) is the "I AM" (meaning Yahweh of the Old Testament) will die in their sins. Thus if a person holds to JW, Mormon, Unitarian and Christadelphian or Oneness theology (and i agree that not all in these groups do hold to the official line), then according to John 8:24, even though they believe in a jesus, because their Jesus isn't the Jesus of the Bible who is the eternal I AM, therefore they will die in their sins. Remember that most of these groups will say that their jesus is some type of god or deity, but not the eternal Yahweh. In JW theology Jesus is the mighty god but not the almighty God, in Oneness theology Jesus is the flesh or humanity of Yahweh, but the Son is not both fully God and fully man, in Mormon theology men can become gods of their own planets, so their jesus is a man who has become a god. Look, I'm not a Christian Oscarr, but your understanding of Christ and his deity is woefully inadequate, as you are being deceived by cults which are tricking you by using christian terminology but with radically redefined definitions.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Jesus himself at John 8:24 states that those who deny that he (the Son of man re verse 28) is the "I AM" (meaning Yahweh of the Old Testament) will die in their sins. Thus if a person holds to JW, Mormon, Unitarian and Christadelphian or Oneness theology (and i agree that not all in these groups do hold to the official line), then according to John 8:24, even though they believe in a jesus, because their Jesus isn't the Jesus of the Bible who is the eternal I AM, therefore they will die in their sins. Remember that most of these groups will say that their jesus is some type of god or deity, but not the eternal Yahweh. In JW theology Jesus is the mighty god but not the almighty God, in Oneness theology Jesus is the flesh or humanity of Yahweh, but the Son is not both fully God and fully man, in Mormon theology men can become gods of their own planets, so their jesus is a man who has become a god. Look, I'm not a Christian Oscarr, but your understanding of Christ and his deity is woefully inadequate, as you are being deceived by cults which are tricking you by using christian terminology but with radically redefined definitions.

It is just that I refuse to a the judge of people. I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt as far as their salvation is concerned, even though I think these people are messed up in their heads and most are deceived by demons. But just because I give these people the benefit of the doubt as to where they are going to spend eternity, I don't support their beliefs and would be the first to say that they are going in completely wrong directions and will miss out on what God has for them in this life, and if they are saved it will be as of by fire, and all their works will be burned up because they consist in wood. hay and stubble, instead gold, silver, or precious stones.

Furthermore, I would never fellowship in their places of worship because I would not wish to be identified with them in any way. The Bible says to stay well clear of those who profess godliness but live godlessly. So I keep well clear of them. I know that Oneness Pentecostals share many of the same beliefs that I do, but I would never fellowship at one of their churches because of their Oneness doctrine. Also, I would never darken the door of a Pentecostal church that teaches that one has to speak in tongues in order to be saved.

But, as I said before, I am not their judge concerning where these people will spend eternity. That will be God's decision when He sits on the throne of judgement.

I think that it is up to those who hold the gospel in truth to show that God is alive, and Jesus really is the Son of God and rose from the dead to preach the gospel with miraculous signs and wonders that these false cults could never replicate. I am talking about those signs and wonders that glorify Jesus and accompanies the preaching of the true gospel. I am aware the Bible talks about false signs and wonders and false prophets, but none of these will glorify Jesus as Lord of Lords and seek to get people converted to Him. Being converted to Jesus is quite different from being made a member of a church. Most of these false teachers and prophets want people to join their church and adopt their believes in order to be "saved" and right with God. Being converted to Christ is independent of any church, and any church that promotes itself as the "true church" is automatically false in my view.

 

[robert skynner]

It is just that I refuse to a the judge of people. I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt as far as their salvation is concerned, even though I think these people are messed up in their heads and most are deceived by demons. But just because I give these people the benefit of the doubt as to where they are going to spend eternity, I don't support their beliefs and would be the first to say that they are going in completely wrong directions and will miss out on what God has for them in this life, and if they are saved it will be as of by fire, and all their works will be burned up because they consist in wood. hay and stubble, instead gold, silver, or precious stones.

Furthermore, I would never fellowship in their places of worship because I would not wish to be identified with them in any way. The Bible says to stay well clear of those who profess godliness but live godlessly. So I keep well clear of them. I know that Oneness Pentecostals share many of the same beliefs that I do, but I would never fellowship at one of their churches because of their Oneness doctrine. Also, I would never darken the door of a Pentecostal church that teaches that one has to speak in tongues in order to be saved.

But, as I said before, I am not their judge concerning where these people will spend eternity. That will be God's decision when He sits on the throne of judgement.

I think that it is up to those who hold the gospel in truth to show that God is alive, and Jesus really is the Son of God and rose from the dead to preach the gospel with miraculous signs and wonders that these false cults could never replicate. I am talking about those signs and wonders that glorify Jesus and accompanies the preaching of the true gospel. I am aware the Bible talks about false signs and wonders and false prophets, but none of these will glorify Jesus as Lord of Lords and seek to get people converted to Him. Being converted to Jesus is quite different from being made a member of a church. Most of these false teachers and prophets want people to join their church and adopt their believes in order to be "saved" and right with God. Being converted to Christ is independent of any church, and any church that promotes itself as the "true church" is automatically false in my view.

I am not asking you to judge anyone, however, I am asking you if people who reject the full deity and full humanity of the Son of God (Jesus Christ) are justified, saved, regenerate-born again? Jesus himself at John 8:24 states that those who deny that he (the Son of man re verse 28) is the "I AM" (meaning Yahweh of the Old Testament) will die in their sins. Thus if a person holds to JW, Mormon, Unitarian and Christadelphian or Oneness theology (and i agree that not all in these groups do hold to the official line), then according to John 8:24, even though they believe in a jesus, because their Jesus isn't the Jesus of the Bible who is the eternal I AM, therefore they will die in their sins. Remember that most of these groups will say that their jesus is some type of god or deity, but not the eternal Yahweh. In JW theology Jesus is the mighty god but not the almighty God, in Oneness theology Jesus is the flesh or humanity of Yahweh, but the Son is not both fully God and fully man, in Mormon theology men can become gods of their own planets, so their jesus is a man who has become a god. Oscarr, your just like so many Christians who live locally to me here in the south west of the UK, you don't give any real answers and what you say is more solipsism than your careful exposition of the Bible. Look, I reject evangelicalism, I am not a Christian, please will you explain John 8:24 to me! Is Jesus saying here that anyone can reject his full deity and yet they are still saved? Here in the UK, many people will say "Jesus is god," but then redefine the words: "Jesus" and or "God" to mean that Jesus is not truly, fully and completely God, he is either partly God, or he becomes a god, or "God" is just a title like Reverend, given to a mere man. The people surreptitiously denying the fully and complete deity of Christ where I live are the evangelicals, many of whom call themselves Trinitarian, but are really either modalists or tri-theists, or incredibly sometimes both!

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I am not asking you to judge anyone, however, I am asking you if people who reject the full deity and full humanity of the Son of God (Jesus Christ) are justified, saved, regenerate-born again? Jesus himself at John 8:24 states that those who deny that he (the Son of man re verse 28) is the "I AM" (meaning Yahweh of the Old Testament) will die in their sins. Thus if a person holds to JW, Mormon, Unitarian and Christadelphian or Oneness theology (and i agree that not all in these groups do hold to the official line), then according to John 8:24, even though they believe in a jesus, because their Jesus isn't the Jesus of the Bible who is the eternal I AM, therefore they will die in their sins. Remember that most of these groups will say that their jesus is some type of god or deity, but not the eternal Yahweh. In JW theology Jesus is the mighty god but not the almighty God, in Oneness theology Jesus is the flesh or humanity of Yahweh, but the Son is not both fully God and fully man, in Mormon theology men can become gods of their own planets, so their jesus is a man who has become a god. Oscarr, your just like so many Christians who live locally to me here in the south west of the UK, you don't give any real answers and what you say is more solipsism than your careful exposition of the Bible. Look, I reject evangelicalism, I am not a Christian, please will you explain John 8:24 to me! Is Jesus saying here that anyone can reject his full deity and yet they are still saved? Here in the UK, many people will say "Jesus is god," but then redefine the words: "Jesus" and or "God" to mean that Jesus is not truly, fully and completely God, he is either partly God, or he becomes a god, or "God" is just a title like Reverend, given to a mere man. The people surreptitiously denying the fully and complete deity of Christ where I live are the evangelicals, many of whom call themselves Trinitarian, but are really either modalists or tri-theists, or incredibly sometimes both!

I agree with what you are saying. Such people are in danger of being condemned to a Christless eternity. I think that trying to debate the issues with them will just drive them into more passionately defending their error. But presenting the risen, alive Christ, accompanied by miracles of healing and deliverance that these people could never replicate would show them that the true gospel presents a Christ who is more powerful than their false religion. This is what brought thousands of pagans to Christ in the First Century. The Apostles did not present just another religion to them. They preached the gospel accompanied by signs and wonders. There is an amazing story about Gregory the Wonder Worker casting a demon out of a pagan statue, and the pagan high priest couldn't do his thing in the temple, so he went and begged Gregory to restore the demon so the priest could officiate. So even when Gregory allowed the demon to re-enter the statue, the damage was done and the pagans in the region saw the power of Christ in Gregory and a revival took place and most of the pagans came to Christ. Even the high priest accepted Christ and became the Christian bishop after Gregory had finished his ministry there. The Apostle John went into the temple of Diana at Ephesis and cast the demons out of it. The altar broke into several pieces and half the temple collapsed. This showed the mighty power of Christ accompanying the gospel. These are what caused First Century pagans to come to Christ in their droves.

We need these signs and wonders today to convince our neo-pagans and cult followers that there is a true gospel with a risen Christ who is more real and powerful that what they can offer. When a JW is healed of terminal cancer as the result of prayer from a genuine Christian who is presenting the real gospel, that would destroy any arguments that the JW would be able to put up to support his religion.

 

[robert skynner]

I agree with what you are saying. Such people are in danger of being condemned to a Christless eternity. I think that trying to debate the issues with them will just drive them into more passionately defending their error. But presenting the risen, alive Christ, accompanied by miracles of healing and deliverance that these people could never replicate would show them that the true gospel presents a Christ who is more powerful than their false religion. This is what brought thousands of pagans to Christ in the First Century. The Apostles did not present just another religion to them. They preached the gospel accompanied by signs and wonders. There is an amazing story about Gregory the Wonder Worker casting a demon out of a pagan statue, and the pagan high priest couldn't do his thing in the temple, so he went and begged Gregory to restore the demon so the priest could officiate. So even when Gregory allowed the demon to re-enter the statue, the damage was done and the pagans in the region saw the power of Christ in Gregory and a revival took place and most of the pagans came to Christ. Even the high priest accepted Christ and became the Christian bishop after Gregory had finished his ministry there. The Apostle John went into the temple of Diana at Ephesis and cast the demons out of it. The altar broke into several pieces and half the temple collapsed. This showed the mighty power of Christ accompanying the gospel. These are what caused First Century pagans to come to Christ in their droves.

We need these signs and wonders today to convince our neo-pagans and cult followers that there is a true gospel with a risen Christ who is more real and powerful that what they can offer. When a JW is healed of terminal cancer as the result of prayer from a genuine Christian who is presenting the real gospel, that would destroy any arguments that the JW would be able to put up to support his religion.

Look Oscarr, I'm sorry if I've been a bit too harsh with you in a few of my previous posts. Whilst I might disagree with you with regard to certain comments on miracles, you do make some great points on other issues, and I hope that my disagreeing with some of your theological comments, is not misunderstood as a rejection of yourself. Your a great guy and I do appreciate your posts, as I can learn from other people's suggestions, including your own, as well as criticism of me, and suggestions for improvements in my posts.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Look Oscarr, I'm sorry if I've been a bit too harsh with you in a few of my previous posts. Whilst I might disagree with you with regard to certain comments on miracles, you do make some great points on other issues, and I hope that my disagreeing with some of your theological comments, is not misunderstood as a rejection of yourself. Your a great guy and I do appreciate your posts, as I can learn from other people's suggestions, including your own, as well as criticism of me, and suggestions for improvements in my posts.

This is what makes CF such a great forum. I have never thought that you were being personal at me. I enjoy the debates. What a boring church it would be if we all agreed with each other. When Jesus chose His twelve disciples, what a diverse bunch they were! I know your responses to me were kicking the ball and not the player. I have the same attitude toward you that you have expressed, so keep the debate going!

If you ever get to coming to Auckland New Zealand at any time, I would count it a privilege to meet up with you over a cup of coffee!

 

[robert skynner]

This is what makes CF such a great forum. I have never thought that you were being personal at me. I enjoy the debates. What a boring church it would be if we all agreed with each other. When Jesus chose His twelve disciples, what a diverse bunch they were! I know your responses to me were kicking the ball and not the player. I have the same attitude toward you that you have expressed, so keep the debate going!

If you ever get to coming to Auckland New Zealand at any time, I would count it a privilege to meet up with you over a cup of coffee!

Sadly Oscarr, I am a very poor guy, I live on minimum wage in the UK and so i cannot afford to travel. Thank you for your kind offer.

 

[Melony Martin]

I was raised in charismatic churches, many of them, due to moving around a lot. Do not take anything I say as a lack of love of charismatic people and their sincerity, but the question was raised. Thus, I will answer, from my experience, why I am not charismatic. It was more of a trend I saw from all the churches. Many of these of churches were started by ministers, on their own without much oversight. I have a problem with that. I did not like a lot of the political banter preached from the pulpit as if it were Gospel. A church, may for example, need to have a stance on abortion. I understand that, but I draw the line when it the church starts to preach that good Christians should be liberals or conservatives. I did not appreciate how many times I've heard other denominations bashed from the pulpit. I did feel sometimes the gifts of the Spirit were so popularized that the congregations started using them in popularity contests. That is all.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I was raised in charismatic churches, many of them, due to moving around a lot. Do not take anything I say as a lack of love of charismatic people and their sincerity, but the question was raised. Thus, I will answer, from my experience, why I am not charismatic. It was more of a trend I saw from all the churches. Many of these of churches were started by ministers, on their own without much oversight. I have a problem with that. I did not like a lot of the political banter preached from the pulpit as if it were Gospel. A church, may for example, need to have a stance on abortion. I understand that, but I draw the line when it the church starts to preach that good Christians should be liberals or conservatives. I did not appreciate how many times I've heard other denominations bashed from the pulpit. I did feel sometimes the gifts of the Spirit were so popularized that the congregations started using them in popularity contests. That is all.

When I first joined a Pentecostal church, I found that they were opposed to academic learning. This meant that I went many years without taking the opportunities I had to improve myself after being a high school drop out. I think that a lot of the shonky teaching in churches like that comes from a lack of good theological and divinity study. I got disillusioned after 12 years, and embarked on a College degree, which I passed. Then I went on and did a mastorate. In the last three years, I have completed a mastorate in divinity. Although I have studied the Bible and read many good theological works from a wide range of authors, I found doing the divinity degree gave me a good focus. I found that I had to study things like Catholic theology, Christianity and Islam, Church History, practical mission and ministry, worship, and the church in the community. In other words completing the degree meant that I had to work in areas which were out of my personal comfort zone and apart from my previous knowledge.

I discovered the reasons why it is so important that church leaders and ministers need good theological and ministry training in order to be able to preach and teach sound doctrine. So, instead of hindering my work in the church, it enhanced it. I was fortunate to work with a Bible College that was completely open to Pentecostal and Charismatic theology and I was quite open in my essays about that, and still got an average of 95% for my essays and research paper (which I did on the ministry of divine healing then and now).

So I understand how you feel about the churches you experienced. I am an elder in my local Presbyterian church and I find that church is as good as any as a place of fellowship. They know and accept that I am Charismatic in my approach, and they let me preach what I like. I have challenged them on allowing the gifts of the Spirit to flow among them, and they haven't kicked me out yet!

 

[Melony Martin]

When I first joined a Pentecostal church, I found that they were opposed to academic learning. This meant that I went many years without taking the opportunities I had to improve myself after being a high school drop out. I think that a lot of the shonky teaching in churches like that comes from a lack of good theological and divinity study. I got disillusioned after 12 years, and embarked on a College degree, which I passed. Then I went on and did a mastorate. In the last three years, I have completed a mastorate in divinity. Although I have studied the Bible and read many good theological works from a wide range of authors, I found doing the divinity degree gave me a good focus. I found that I had to study things like Catholic theology, Christianity and Islam, Church History, practical mission and ministry, worship, and the church in the community. In other words completing the degree meant that I had to work in areas which were out of my personal comfort zone and apart from my previous knowledge.

I discovered the reasons why it is so important that church leaders and ministers need good theological and ministry training in order to be able to preach and teach sound doctrine. So, instead of hindering my work in the church, it enhanced it. I was fortunate to work with a Bible College that was completely open to Pentecostal and Charismatic theology and I was quite open in my essays about that, and still got an average of 95% for my essays and research paper (which I did on the ministry of divine healing then and now).

So I understand how you feel about the churches you experienced. I am an elder in my local Presbyterian church and I find that church is as good as any as a place of fellowship. They know and accept that I am Charismatic in my approach, and they let me preach what I like. I have challenged them on allowing the gifts of the Spirit to flow among them, and they haven't kicked me out yet!

I'm glad your experience was positive. One of the problems I've seen in multiple charismatic churches is that the ministers come from kind of "random" and biased Bible Colleges. I'm glad that wasn't the case for you.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I'm glad your experience was positive. One of the problems I've seen in multiple charismatic churches is that the ministers come from kind of "random" and biased Bible Colleges. I'm glad that wasn't the case for you.

My training came through an on-line Bible college affiliated with the Church of Christ. I asked them the hard questions about their attitude to the Charismatic and they told me that they had quite a number of Charismatic students. That made me feel a lot better about them. I found that their courses were well-balanced and used a range of good, well-known texts. The range of courses was extensive and I am confident that I have got a really good accredited degree. At no time did they debate any of the Charismatic theology that I used in many of the essays that I wrote. I found my on-line student advisor very encouraging, open and helpful. It was the journey that blessed me more than having the diploma on my wall.

I think that having a good solid and practical divinity qualification gives one a good foundation for ministry and blocks criticisers from saying, "Oh, you're a Charismatic, so you're biased." Actually in my last Charismatic church, they looked sideways at me because I had a good solid background in Puritan Calvinist theology as well. The mixture of Pentecostal and Puritan theology gives the strongest foundation that I know of.