Discussion Ex-Charismatics, thoughts on what this means and on their ideas.

[Presbyterian Continuist]

I am extremely interested in debating tithing with somebody - I am against tithing.

Old Testament tithing was the way people in Israel paid their taxes. We pay tax to the IRS. In that way we are tithing in the Old Testament sense. The New Testament way is to freely give what we can afford, or wish to give without causing suffering to our families who depend on us. If I have debts and bills to pay, it would not be right to give that money away and then the family's furniture and appliances and motor vehicles are repossessed because we didn't keep up the payments.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

The most abusive people I've ever met are Christians, the papers here in the UK are full of stories of endless abuse and crimes committed by religious people. BE WARNED.

Here is what some Christians may fight over and an example of good news reports from UK Christians:
Pregnant British mom refuses doctors advice to abort premature baby, one year later son is healthy

Proper tithers have a promise from the OT and all the Bible's promises can be activated.

 

[robert skynner]

Proper tithers have a promise from the OT and all the Bible's promises can be activated.

I see so like so many Christians you reject the new covenant (of ones being in Christ) in favor of old covenant promises (such as tithing), which trump the new covenant established by Christ's death on the cross. No wonder the churches are in such a dire state! They use the Old Covenant to trump the New Covenant.

 

[robert skynner]

Old Testament tithing was the way people in Israel paid their taxes. We pay tax to the IRS. In that way we are tithing in the Old Testament sense. The New Testament way is to freely give what we can afford, or wish to give without causing suffering to our families who depend on us. If I have debts and bills to pay, it would not be right to give that money away and then the family's furniture and appliances and motor vehicles are repossessed because we didn't keep up the payments.

Thank you for explaining this Oscarr.

 

[robert skynner]

You are quite free to believe what you have written. It is quite true that the Church has been its worst enemy about how it has gone about advertising the Christian faith. From the 5th Century through to Martin Luther the church was run by people who were controlled by religious demons. Apart from a few exceptions, 75 of our churches are still controlled by religious spirits. This is why we see so many problems associated with churches today. If you want to allow those religious demons to control your thinking about the church and about the modern day application of the gifts of the Spirit, then you are free to do so. But I will tell you this: You will never see any miracles or use any of the gifts of the Spirit while you continue in that belief. But if you are satisfied with religious rituals and ceremonies, three hymns and a sermon every Sunday, then continue as you are. I hope that Jesus will accept your explanation when you get to face Him in person one day and He asks you why you never used the supernatural resources He offered you in this life.

Seeing that I reject Christianity, I'm appalled at your avoidance of my post and comment. Here is what i had originally written about Mark 16:17, would you kindly address the text, rather than post comments about miracles.

........

Oscarr, the word ‘believe’ or ‘have believed’ (NASV) at Mark 16:17is an aorist participle, which can only refer to the office of the 12 apostles, who numbered eleven at that particular moment! A contrast in these verses is also made between two groups of believers, firstly the singular ‘he’ at Mark 16:16 who will come to believe, with the plural ‘them’ of verses 14, 16 and 20. In verse 17 John quoting Christ does not use two future tenses, to imply that these miraculous gifts will continue for the entire church age even into our own day. If he had wished to imply this, then he would have said: ‘these signs will follow those who WILL believe.’ But instead, the linking of the aorist participle ‘have believed’ with the future tense; ‘will follow,’ implies that those who’ll work these miracles, will receive their faith before they come exercise these miraculous gifts. This limits the recipients to the apostles but not to the 3,000 who came to faith after the exercise of the mighty spiritual gifts at Acts 2:41.


This interpretation is confirmed in Acts chapter two, where we read that only the 12 apostles spoke in tongues. The 3,000 men who were converted on this day (Acts 2:41), did not work any miracles. Because Acts 2:43 says that these signs were done by the apostles. Now obviously later on in the book of Acts, other people also worked miracles, through the laying on of the apostles hands, and sometimes God will occasionally even heal or even work a miracle today. Elsewhere in Acts chapters 10, 19 and possible 8, other people also spoke in “other languages.” But this was hardly a common event, as Acts 19 is some twenty years after Pentecost, and 2 or 3 occurrences of tongues over a 20 year period, hardly describes a common Christian activity. Now if Jesus had wished to indicate to us today, that the 3,000 who were saved on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:41) would also come to speak in tongues, then he would have used two future tenses in his prophecy at Mark 16:17:‘these signs WILL follow those who WILL believe.’


Because nobody today, not even Oscarr can meet the apostolic requirements of having seen the risen Christ (Acts 1:22). This is why Paul saw the risen Christ “last of all,” (1st Corinthians 15:8), and the office of the 12 ceased with him. With this apostles office closed, God is not today confirming the oral word with the sign gifts of Mark 16:17-18. But if he were we would not have an AID’s crisis, for the Apostles could heal all who came to them (Acts 5:16). This inability to duplicate the book of Acts in our day, and especially the miraculous sign gifts of Mark 16:17-18, proves that today’s apostles are rather undermining the finished authority of Scripture.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Seeing that I reject Christianity, I'm appalled at your avoidance of my post and comment. Here is what i had originally written about Mark 16:17, would you kindly address the text, rather than post comments about miracles.

........

Oscarr, the word ‘believe’ or ‘have believed’ (NASV) at Mark 16:17is an aorist participle, which can only refer to the office of the 12 apostles, who numbered eleven at that particular moment! A contrast in these verses is also made between two groups of believers, firstly the singular ‘he’ at Mark 16:16 who will come to believe, with the plural ‘them’ of verses 14, 16 and 20. In verse 17 John quoting Christ does not use two future tenses, to imply that these miraculous gifts will continue for the entire church age even into our own day. If he had wished to imply this, then he would have said: ‘these signs will follow those who WILL believe.’ But instead, the linking of the aorist participle ‘have believed’ with the future tense; ‘will follow,’ implies that those who’ll work these miracles, will receive their faith before they come exercise these miraculous gifts. This limits the recipients to the apostles but not to the 3,000 who came to faith after the exercise of the mighty spiritual gifts at Acts 2:41.


This interpretation is confirmed in Acts chapter two, where we read that only the 12 apostles spoke in tongues. The 3,000 men who were converted on this day (Acts 2:41), did not work any miracles. Because Acts 2:43 says that these signs were done by the apostles. Now obviously later on in the book of Acts, other people also worked miracles, through the laying on of the apostles hands, and sometimes God will occasionally even heal or even work a miracle today. Elsewhere in Acts chapters 10, 19 and possible 8, other people also spoke in “other languages.” But this was hardly a common event, as Acts 19 is some twenty years after Pentecost, and 2 or 3 occurrences of tongues over a 20 year period, hardly describes a common Christian activity. Now if Jesus had wished to indicate to us today, that the 3,000 who were saved on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:41) would also come to speak in tongues, then he would have used two future tenses in his prophecy at Mark 16:17:‘these signs WILL follow those who WILL believe.’


Because nobody today, not even Oscarr can meet the apostolic requirements of having seen the risen Christ (Acts 1:22). This is why Paul saw the risen Christ “last of all,” (1st Corinthians 15:8), and the office of the 12 ceased with him. With this apostles office closed, God is not today confirming the oral word with the sign gifts of Mark 16:17-18. But if he were we would not have an AID’s crisis, for the Apostles could heal all who came to them (Acts 5:16). This inability to duplicate the book of Acts in our day, and especially the miraculous sign gifts of Mark 16:17-18, proves that today’s apostles are rather undermining the finished authority of Scripture.

You are ignoring 1 Corinthians 12-14

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Seeing that I reject Christianity, I'm appalled at your avoidance of my post and comment. Here is what i had originally written about Mark 16:17, would you kindly address the text, rather than post comments about miracles.

........

Oscarr, the word ‘believe’ or ‘have believed’ (NASV) at Mark 16:17is an aorist participle, which can only refer to the office of the 12 apostles, who numbered eleven at that particular moment! A contrast in these verses is also made between two groups of believers, firstly the singular ‘he’ at Mark 16:16 who will come to believe, with the plural ‘them’ of verses 14, 16 and 20. In verse 17 John quoting Christ does not use two future tenses, to imply that these miraculous gifts will continue for the entire church age even into our own day. If he had wished to imply this, then he would have said: ‘these signs will follow those who WILL believe.’ But instead, the linking of the aorist participle ‘have believed’ with the future tense; ‘will follow,’ implies that those who’ll work these miracles, will receive their faith before they come exercise these miraculous gifts. This limits the recipients to the apostles but not to the 3,000 who came to faith after the exercise of the mighty spiritual gifts at Acts 2:41.


This interpretation is confirmed in Acts chapter two, where we read that only the 12 apostles spoke in tongues. The 3,000 men who were converted on this day (Acts 2:41), did not work any miracles. Because Acts 2:43 says that these signs were done by the apostles. Now obviously later on in the book of Acts, other people also worked miracles, through the laying on of the apostles hands, and sometimes God will occasionally even heal or even work a miracle today. Elsewhere in Acts chapters 10, 19 and possible 8, other people also spoke in “other languages.” But this was hardly a common event, as Acts 19 is some twenty years after Pentecost, and 2 or 3 occurrences of tongues over a 20 year period, hardly describes a common Christian activity. Now if Jesus had wished to indicate to us today, that the 3,000 who were saved on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:41) would also come to speak in tongues, then he would have used two future tenses in his prophecy at Mark 16:17:‘these signs WILL follow those who WILL believe.’


Because nobody today, not even Oscarr can meet the apostolic requirements of having seen the risen Christ (Acts 1:22). This is why Paul saw the risen Christ “last of all,” (1st Corinthians 15:8), and the office of the 12 ceased with him. With this apostles office closed, God is not today confirming the oral word with the sign gifts of Mark 16:17-18. But if he were we would not have an AID’s crisis, for the Apostles could heal all who came to them (Acts 5:16). This inability to duplicate the book of Acts in our day, and especially the miraculous sign gifts of Mark 16:17-18, proves that today’s apostles are rather undermining the finished authority of Scripture.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Seeing that I reject Christianity, I'm appalled at your avoidance of my post and comment. Here is what i had originally written about Mark 16:17, would you kindly address the text, rather than post comments about miracles.

........

Oscarr, the word ‘believe’ or ‘have believed’ (NASV) at Mark 16:17is an aorist participle, which can only refer to the office of the 12 apostles, who numbered eleven at that particular moment! A contrast in these verses is also made between two groups of believers, firstly the singular ‘he’ at Mark 16:16 who will come to believe, with the plural ‘them’ of verses 14, 16 and 20. In verse 17 John quoting Christ does not use two future tenses, to imply that these miraculous gifts will continue for the entire church age even into our own day. If he had wished to imply this, then he would have said: ‘these signs will follow those who WILL believe.’ But instead, the linking of the aorist participle ‘have believed’ with the future tense; ‘will follow,’ implies that those who’ll work these miracles, will receive their faith before they come exercise these miraculous gifts. This limits the recipients to the apostles but not to the 3,000 who came to faith after the exercise of the mighty spiritual gifts at Acts 2:41.


This interpretation is confirmed in Acts chapter two, where we read that only the 12 apostles spoke in tongues. The 3,000 men who were converted on this day (Acts 2:41), did not work any miracles. Because Acts 2:43 says that these signs were done by the apostles. Now obviously later on in the book of Acts, other people also worked miracles, through the laying on of the apostles hands, and sometimes God will occasionally even heal or even work a miracle today. Elsewhere in Acts chapters 10, 19 and possible 8, other people also spoke in “other languages.” But this was hardly a common event, as Acts 19 is some twenty years after Pentecost, and 2 or 3 occurrences of tongues over a 20 year period, hardly describes a common Christian activity. Now if Jesus had wished to indicate to us today, that the 3,000 who were saved on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:41) would also come to speak in tongues, then he would have used two future tenses in his prophecy at Mark 16:17:‘these signs WILL follow those who WILL believe.’


Because nobody today, not even Oscarr can meet the apostolic requirements of having seen the risen Christ (Acts 1:22). This is why Paul saw the risen Christ “last of all,” (1st Corinthians 15:8), and the office of the 12 ceased with him. With this apostles office closed, God is not today confirming the oral word with the sign gifts of Mark 16:17-18. But if he were we would not have an AID’s crisis, for the Apostles could heal all who came to them (Acts 5:16). This inability to duplicate the book of Acts in our day, and especially the miraculous sign gifts of Mark 16:17-18, proves that today’s apostles are rather undermining the finished authority of Scripture.

Seeing that you say you are rejecting Christianity, there is only one thing I can say to you from the Bible: It says "Repent [that is, turn away from your rejection of Christ] and be converted that your sins be blotted out." The promise is also that if you turn back to Christ on a personal level, He promises that though your sins be as scarlet, they will be as white as snow. Until you do that, I would be wasting my time discussing spiritual things with you because without the Holy Spirit in your heart making things clear to you, you will not really understand it. You need to be converted to Christ and allow Him to give you a new heart and then fill you with His Spirit. Then discussing spiritual things with you will be more productive. So my only response to you is, "Get saved!"

 

[robert skynner]

I would be wasting my time discussing spiritual things with you because without the Holy Spirit in your heart making things clear to you, you will not really understand it.

Who made you a judge over me? You don't know me and you ought to answer my question on Mark 16:17 rather than act as my eternal judge, that's Christ's job, not you Oscarr. Oh and by the way, nobody is "saved" by attaching some label or identification to themselves, sadly the people who seem to most zealously deny the new covenant are people claiming to be born again Christians. I will; repeat my post on Mark 16:17 please reply.

..........................

Oscarr, the word ‘believe’ or ‘have believed’ (NASV) at Mark 16:17is an aorist participle, which can only refer to the office of the 12 apostles, who numbered eleven at that particular moment! A contrast in these verses is also made between two groups of believers, firstly the singular ‘he’ at Mark 16:16 who will come to believe, with the plural ‘them’ of verses 14, 16 and 20. In verse 17 John quoting Christ does not use two future tenses, to imply that these miraculous gifts will continue for the entire church age even into our own day. If he had wished to imply this, then he would have said: ‘these signs will follow those who WILL believe.’ But instead, the linking of the aorist participle ‘have believed’ with the future tense; ‘will follow,’ implies that those who’ll work these miracles, will receive their faith before they come exercise these miraculous gifts. This limits the recipients to the apostles but not to the 3,000 who came to faith after the exercise of the mighty spiritual gifts at Acts 2:41.


This interpretation is confirmed in Acts chapter two, where we read that only the 12 apostles spoke in tongues. The 3,000 men who were converted on this day (Acts 2:41), did not work any miracles. Because Acts 2:43 says that these signs were done by the apostles. Now obviously later on in the book of Acts, other people also worked miracles, through the laying on of the apostles hands, and sometimes God will occasionally even heal or even work a miracle today. Elsewhere in Acts chapters 10, 19 and possible 8, other people also spoke in “other languages.” But this was hardly a common event, as Acts 19 is some twenty years after Pentecost, and 2 or 3 occurrences of tongues over a 20 year period, hardly describes a common Christian activity. Now if Jesus had wished to indicate to us today, that the 3,000 who were saved on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:41) would also come to speak in tongues, then he would have used two future tenses in his prophecy at Mark 16:17:‘these signs WILL follow those who WILL believe.’


Because nobody today, not even Oscarr can meet the apostolic requirements of having seen the risen Christ (Acts 1:22). This is why Paul saw the risen Christ “last of all,” (1st Corinthians 15:8), and the office of the 12 ceased with him. With this apostles office closed, God is not today confirming the oral word with the sign gifts of Mark 16:17-18. But if he were we would not have an AID’s crisis, for the Apostles could heal all who came to them (Acts 5:16). This inability to duplicate the book of Acts in our day, and especially the miraculous sign gifts of Mark 16:17-18, proves that today’s apostles are rather undermining the finished authority of Scripture.

 

[robert skynner]

So my only response to you is, "Get saved!"

Oscarr, many if not most Evangelical Christians deny the new covenant, for instance here in Plymouth in the UK, people claiming to be saved, will also claim that they are under the Mosaic laws of tithing, thus when I've inquire if they are new covenant Christians, they will reply yes, but then claim that new covenant Christians are also under parts of the Mosaic law pertinent to tithing and also to pasts of the Abrahamic covenant (when they raise Genesis 14). When I have then pointed out that Christ's work on the cross is not sufficient for them, they damn me to hell as unsaved, (just as you also have done)! The trouble is that the vast overwhelming majority of evangelical people calling themselves "saved" or "born again" or "Christian" in my locality in the UK, do not understand even the basics of Christian theology, are effectively anti-Trinitarian (usually modalist or tritheist), even if they do attend baptist or Pentecostal type Churches, neither do these people understand the new covenant as they often add human works to grace and regard the gospel as mostly what Christ mostly does with a terribly shallow grasp of the new covenant, but with their own good works also added to Christ's works and the two together produce salvation. It's sad, but you've fallen from grace if you do not accept that Christ's work on the cross, making a covenant with the father mediated through the Holy Spirit is the new covenant which purchases salvation in the new covenant completely apart from human good works: Galatians 5:4 "You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace." It's shame that you won't discuss this, you just damn me to hell, but hey I'm used to that, that is how most RELIGIOUS people act. They use an undefined label such as "saved" and then unbiblically damn people such as myself who don't use their label too. Hardly Biblical is it! Personally, I've found it almost impossible to find a born again Evangelical Christian who is able to even explain their faith accurately and biblically, they just damn people outside of their little group to hell as Oscarr has done me.

 

[robert skynner]

You are ignoring 1 Corinthians 12-14

1st Corinthians 12 to 14 is many years (about 15-20) after Mark 16, I am only interested in the days around the day of Pentecost, what happened 20 years later isn't relevant to the argument which I am trying to make which is exclusive to the days aound the day of Pentecost.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

1st Corinthians 12 to 14 is many years (about 15-20) after Mark 16, I am only interested in the days around the day of Pentecost, what happened 20 years later isn't relevant to the argument which I am trying to make which is exclusive to the days aound the day of Pentecost.

All the events from Pentecost on are the NT practice and outpouring. Even the Gospel before Jesus died with casting out spirits and healing the sick continues. Jesus blood is glorified is automatic in forgiveness from God.

The promises of the OT are still yes and amen. The OT law is still right and the NT builds on the understanding with grace and Truth instead.

The gifts at Pentecost are the same as those in Corinth and the present. Tongues have turned out to be Hebrew. Tongues are interpreted. Secret thoughts are revealed, and people repent. Jesus' blood cleans their hearts.

 

[robert skynner]

All the events from Pentecost on are the NT practice and outpouring. Even the Gospel before Jesus died with casting out spirits and healing the sick continues. Jesus blood is glorified is automatic in forgiveness from God.

The promises of the OT are still yes and amen. The OT law is still right and the NT builds on the understanding with grace and Truth instead.

The gifts at Pentecost are the same as those in Corinth and the present. Tongues have turned out to be Hebrew. Tongues are interpreted. Secret thoughts are revealed, and people repent. Jesus' blood cleans their hearts.

My point was relevant only to Mark 16 and unto to the day of Pentecost, where only 12 men, not 120 or 3,120 or more than 12 men spoke in other languages (on that day). 1st Corinthians 12 is 15-20 years later, and my post was not addressing that verse where other people also spoke in languages, my comments we only pertinent to Mark 16 and Acts 2. If you ignore the context of my comments, then you'll simply be misquoting me.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

My point was relevant only to Mark 16 and unto to the day of Pentecost, where only 12 men, not 120 or 3,120 or more than 12 men spoke in other languages (on that day). 1st Corinthians 12 is 15-20 years later, and my post was not addressing that verse where other people also spoke in languages, my comments we only pertinent to Mark 16 and Acts 2. If you ignore the context of my comments, then you'll simply be misquoting me.

Cessationists have this view that God limits what He gives in a dispensation, others think God cannot do for us what He did for Abraham or the 12 apostles. Either way they are wrong, God has the purpose of saving us from Hell by grace and truth and gives us grace and truth without dispensation limits. Anything God gave Peter the apostle He can give again. It is the same Spirit that is here with us. Although to have the same revelation of God as Peter seeing Him for three years... that we cannot have, not until after we die.

YLT
Mar 16:15 and he said to them, 'Having gone to all the world, proclaim the good news to all the creation;
Mar 16:16 he who hath believed, and hath been baptized, shall be saved; and he who hath not believed, shall be condemned.
Mar 16:17 'And signs shall accompany those believing these things; in my name demons they shall cast out; with new tongues they shall speak;
Mar 16:18 serpents they shall take up; and if any deadly thing they may drink, it shall not hurt them; on the ailing they shall lay hands, and they shall be well.'

So the evangelized shall speak in tongues, not only the 12. In Acts, Paul at least the 15th apostle is bitten by a snake on Malta and lives to the surprise of many.

 

[Dave-W]

Cessation isn't in the Bible. It is opposed to the Bible.

Please cite in the Bible the times that anyone cleared out a hospital. Jesus once walked into a large group of the infirmed and healed only one.

Back in the early 70s I was in high school and occasionally attended the youth group meetings of a neighboring church (Church of Christ) which was ardently cessationist. They explained from 1 Cor 13 how all of that had ceased in the first century. I did not buy it. So I studied it out.

A few months later one of the adults approached me saying he had heard I believed in the use of the gifts. And he started to explain 1 Cor 13 to me.

"When that which is perfect is come, that which is in part will be done away."

I finished his argument for him, to which he replied with a big smile that I explained it better than he ever could have. So then I tore that argument apart point by point. (to his shock and dismay) I think that in the end he questioned his own position. One of the friends from that youth group that was also trying to convince me of cessationism came up to me at our 10 year HS reunion and apologized. He was now a charismatic himself.

 

[robert skynner]

Back in the early 70s I was in high school and occasionally attended the youth group meetings of a neighboring church (Church of Christ) which was ardently cessationist. They explained from 1 Cor 13 how all of that had ceased in the first century. I did not buy it. So I studied it out.

A few months later one of the adults approached me saying he had heard I believed in the use of the gifts. And he started to explain 1 Cor 13 to me.

"When that which is perfect is come, that which is in part will be done away."

I finished his argument for him, to which he replied with a big smile that I explained it better than he ever could have. So then I tore that argument apart point by point. (to his shock and dismay) I think that in the end he questioned his own position. One of the friends from that youth group that was also trying to convince me of cessationism came up to me at our 10 year HS reunion and apologized. He was now a charismatic himself.

Hello Dave, I have not mentioned 1st Corinthians 13, so kindly credit me with what I have said and not what somebody else has said. My point, is that in Acts chapter 2 only 12 men not 120 or 3,000 or 3,120 or more spoke in other languages. These men who so spoke are identified as Peter plus the 11 at Act 2:13-15, not Peter plus the 119. Then at Acts 2:43 we read that the speakers in this chapter were the "APOSTLES", who numbered 12, so on the day of Pentecost, only 12 men spoke in languages. Please note that I am NOT attempting to make the claim that only 12 men ever so spoke, my comments are only pertinent to the day of Pentecost.

 

[robert skynner]

YLT

Mar 16:17 'And signs shall accompany those believing these things; in my name demons they shall cast out; with new tongues they shall speak;

So the evangelized shall speak in tongues, not only the 12. In Acts, Paul at least the 15th apostle is bitten by a snake on Malta and lives to the surprise of many.

No the past tense is used to refer to those believing ..... "who have believed" NASV, thus the people referenced are the 11 apostles to whom Jesus was appearing and not all believers today in 2017 AD. Kindly explain the meaning of "have believed" how can this past tense refer to all modern believers living today? Can'd you see that Jesus' promise is specifically to the 11 apostles whom he was addressing, they could pass on gifts though the laying on of hands, but when they died, there were no more apostles to pass on gifts by the laying on of hands.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

No the past tense is used to refer to those believing ..... "who have believed" NASV, thus the people referenced are the 11 apostles to whom Jesus was appearing and not all believers today in 2017 AD. Kindly explain the meaning of "have believed" how can this past tense refer to all modern believers living today? Can'd you see that Jesus' promise is specifically to the 11 apostles whom he was addressing, they could pass on gifts though the laying on of hands, but when they died, there were no more apostles to pass on gifts by the laying on of hands.

In Strong's concordance the word is G4100 and is not past tense. The Young's Literal Translation is used, as well as KJV with numbers.

In Acts 2, there are more than twelve people groups to hear their own language. Also the women were there who sat at Jesus feet. This includes Mother Mary who is portrayed as bearing a tongue of fire by Catholics.

 

[Dave-W]

My point, is that in Acts chapter 2 only 12 men not 120 or 3,000 or 3,120 or more spoke in other languages. These men who so spoke are identified as Peter plus the 11 at Act 2:13-15, not Peter plus the 119.

I am not really sure what difference that makes.

The point is the day it happened - Shavuot/Pentecost - the anniversary of God coming down on Mt Sinai with fire and smoke and speaking out the 10 commandments in 70 languages (for the mixed multitude gathered at foot of the mountain).

So the devout worshippers came out of the temple after the morning sacrifices and prayers with that image of God coming down on the mountain fresh in their minds and then Acts 2 happens. And since the streets are so narrow in the Old City, the only place spacious enough for the 3000 to hear and get baptized was at the Temple Mount.


I am also not sure what the events of Acts 2 have to do with being an EX charismatic/pentecostal.

 

[robert skynner]

In Strong's concordance the word is G4100 and is not past tense. The Young's Literal Translation is used, as well as KJV with numbers.

As a Christian, you ought to know your own holy book Golden KingGaze. Well, Strong's concordance does not give tenses, you need a more substantial tool to reveal that.

The word for "Believe" is: πιστεύω pisteuō
The Tense is : Aorist (which implies completed action)
Voice: Active (this means that the subject is doing the action of the verb)
Mood: Participle (A participle is a verb being used as a noun)

NASB Mark 16:17:

“These signs will accompany those who have believed; in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues;"

The aorist participle πιστεύω is translated as "have believed" my sole point is that being a completed action (i.e. past tense) it's referring back to the 11 apostles who are doing this believing from verse 14, and not to believers in the future in the year AD 2017. If this text is supposed to be referring to believers in the future, i.e. today, then Mark 16:17 would have have been written in a future tense and not as an aorist participle. Look Christians, won't anyone of you reply intelligently to my polite and fair criticisms of your faith, don't use a straw man and misquote me, be fair, be honest and reply to my fair question. I tire of the dishonest of so many relgious people.