EV's in deep freeze

[Tuur]

There are some interesting evaluations of this -- particularly the fact that most (even almost all) home charging occurs at night, when other power drains from the house are low. There are some that claim that higher EV adoption will be good for the grid, as it will balance the power usage between the night and day, as opposed to currently where power plants are often essentially "turned off" at night due to lack of demand. Part of this is accomplished, in some locations, by discounting rates during slack periods, causing EV owners to schedule their cars charging (which is built into the vehicle software) so that charging does not start until later in the evening.

There have also been plans made, unsure if they would ever be implemented, that would allow for EVs to be used as batteries for the grid. Essentially, if an EV is plugged in during the day (to a 120/240W charger), then the power company could pull some of the power out of the car battery, on an as needed basis, when there is high electricity demand. After the high demand period is ended, the car would be recharged to full (for "free" -- where any power taken would provide a credit that gives the account that amount of power free).

What you describe in the first paragraph gets into what's called diversity, and not in a political sense. In this case, diversity means that not everything is running at the same time. Let's say a house has a 200 amp meter base. If we sized the transformer to the meter base, it would require a 75 KVA transformer to carry the load (standard sizes are 10, 15, 25, 37.5, 50, 75, 100). But because it's not using all that at the same time, utilities can get away with using a smaller transformer. For our utility, 15 KVA is pretty much standard for residences, though we have more than a few with larger transformers. Wouldn't be surprised if the standard becomes 25 KVA soon after I retire.

The problem is that diversity isn't constant. It fluctuates with the seasons and even day of the week. In the summer, it's typical for electric load to climb during the day and drop during the night. In winter, it's the reverse: load climbs as temperature drops, and declines as temperatures climb. Running the figures above, I thought about how common it was for us for transformers to trip due to overload before day in the winter. Now add vehicle charging on to it.

Yes, I've seen the scheme to use EV owner's cars to help supplement the grid. It's a bad idea. Trying to go to work one morning only to find you can't because the utility drew down your vehicle's charge to make it over an energy shortfall? Or let's say it's charging in the company parking lot and you find the same thing when you want to go home for the day. Let's hope it didn't happen when you needed to use it in an emergency. No, drawing down EV batteries to power the grid is a horribly bad idea.

 

[Tuur]

ust to be clear, the 12V battery in an EV is typically the same battery found in ICE cars -- so ICE cars have the same issues (other than the battery is not needed to fill the tank on a gas car). But people have found it tough to get to the gas station when they can't start their gas vehicles due to the cold weather affecting the 12V battery, at least prior to getting the car jump started.

It's worth noting that ICE truck and car batteries tend to be rated by Cold Cranking Amps. That's the available power when the battery is cold. Never gave the cold charging aspect much thought, but will point out that an ICE produces excess heat, and that would warm the battery. A faulty alternator can indeed cause problems, and lead acid batteries with issues, usually from aging, will cause more problems in cold or excessive heat. So it was that when I noticed my truck battery dragging, I replaced it. Got right at six years off a three year battery, so can't complain.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Yes, talk about distracted driving.....all that information would be too tempting to watch. Maybe I'm showing my age, but using a touch screen for frequently used car functions is not for me. Having said that, I am planning to rent a Telsa Model Y for a weekend trip to Vegas--- out of curiosity (rental price was surprisingly cheaper than a similar sized ICE car).

The fonts were tiny too. It like it was just a (busy) laptop screen attached to the dash. When I bought my current car I was glad that it didn't have any multi-function touch screen. The next year and next trimline up did have a screen like the original iPads (and similar tablets), though I don't know if it was touch.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Yes, I was wondering how much of this issue is caused by Tesla drivers not "pre-conditioning" the battery for optimum charging while parking their car's in sub-zero weather conditions.

Noting that Norway drivers, a cold country with over 90% EV adoption rate for new cars, must be doing something right....

https://www.fastcompany.com/91011373/evs-work-fine-in-the-cold-in-norway-heres-how-they-do-it#:~:text=Norway%2C%20which%20tested%20how%20the,which%20were%20full%20electric%20vehicles).

Before I read the article....does the solution include blankets or sweaters?

 

[wing2000]

Before I read the article....does the solution include blankets or sweaters?

...eh, a battery blanket is suggested for those who park their car outdoors. In Norway, however, home ownership is high so that certainly makes EV ownership less problematic.

 

[SimplyMe]

It's worth noting that ICE truck and car batteries tend to be rated by Cold Cranking Amps. That's the available power when the battery is cold. Never gave the cold charging aspect much thought, but will point out that an ICE produces excess heat, and that would warm the battery.

Just to point out, an ICE producing excess heat does not really help with the battery, since you need the battery to get the ICE started (so no heat).

Beyond that, I'm not sure how much the battery is heated in that cold of weather by the ICE. The battery is intentionally located in the front corner, where it can be air cooled and sits away from most of the engine heat. Beyond that, in -10 F conditions, the engine can struggle to hold the heat it creates. I had a brother living in Minneapolis that struggled, during the worst of the winter there, just to get the car's heater to work -- the engine apparently was not getting warm enough.

A faulty alternator can indeed cause problems, and lead acid batteries with issues, usually from aging, will cause more problems in cold or excessive heat. So it was that when I noticed my truck battery dragging, I replaced it. Got right at six years off a three year battery, so can't complain.

Oddly, the cold doesn't typically "damage" the battery -- the exception to this might be excessive starting, particularly with a faulty alternator, where the battery sits at an extreme low charge for a long period. Instead, it is the heat that destroys the battery, something I definitely learned living in the Houston area. I had to change my battery roughly every three years, a couple of times getting "free" batteries under warranty; it did not matter how "high quality" the battery was. Per AAA, batteries there are expected to last less than 41 months on average -- and the length of expected battery life increases as you go north (up to 58+ months in the northern US). AAA has a map showing this at this link, towards the bottom of the page).

And this is (or at least should be) an advantage for EV 12V batteries; they do not deal with the same "load" -- since they don't need the Cold Cranking Amps to start a cold gas engine. Instead, they are used to power the electrical system on an EV, so not dealing with much load, and are typically recharged to keep them at a fairly stable charge to prolong their life. There typically should not be an issue with a 12V battery in an EV, provided they have designed the system well. Though apparently some brands (I believe Hyundai has had the issue) allow drain on the 12V while the car is sitting idle (the alarm system, door locks, etc.), or even has some type of "phantom" energy drain while the car is off, but then don't ensure the 12V remains charged as it uses power.

 

[Ana the Ist]

...eh, a battery blanket is suggested for those who park their car outdoors.

You're messing with me, right?

In Norway, however, home ownership is high so that certainly makes EV ownership less problematic.

Look...I encourage everyone to buy an EV. That way, prices on cars with ICE should drop by around the time I'm purchasing one.

 

[wing2000]

You're messing with me, right?

...not really. Battery blankets are a thing according to the article (and it makes sense - a colder battery requires more energy to warm it up to optimum charging temperature.

Look...I encourage everyone to buy an EV. That way, prices on cars with ICE should drop by around the time I'm purchasing one.

I'm not in the market currently for any vehicle especially with current market prices. I'll see what's available in 2-3 years....and at what price.

 

[Tuur]

Just to point out, an ICE producing excess heat does not really help with the battery, since you need the battery to get the ICE started (so no heat).

The issue is charging. The vehicle recharges the battery while the engine runs. Recharging reverses the chemical reaction that provides electricity. The same cold that impacts charging EV lithium ion batteries could very well impact charging ICE lead acid batteries.

Beyond that, I'm not sure how much the battery is heated in that cold of weather by the ICE. The battery is intentionally located in the front corner, where it can be air cooled and sits away from most of the engine heat. Beyond that, in -10 F conditions, the engine can struggle to hold the heat it creates. I had a brother living in Minneapolis that struggled, during the worst of the winter there, just to get the car's heater to work -- the engine apparently was not getting warm enough.

There's enough heat in an engine compartment that we had a cat who beelined for it when I came home on cold evenings. There's so much heat that there has to be some sort of cooling, whether it's a coolant or air cooled.

Not having been in Minnesota in the dead of winter, I can't say for sure, but I suspect there was likely a problem with the diverter flap. Another possible cause is the heater core, which is just a little radiator providing heat to the cabin. If the engine temperature gauge shows normal temperature, then it's likely the diverter flap or heater core.

Oddly, the cold doesn't typically "damage" the battery

Problems tend to show up more then, though.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I commute around 100 miles round trip every day. I've kind set a requirement for an electric vehicle that I want 600 miles of range which gives me some flexibility for just charging on the weekend at home.

But, the thought occurs about trips: I drive a car in which I get 39+ miles/gal. I generally put 10 gallons in at a time. It takes 2 minutes fill time. So I figure that for the family van, I can be "in and out" in 5 minutes. Now, most of the things I've read says it takes 30 minutes to charge an EV to 80%. Suppose then you are on a road trip across country (particularly in a place like the US or Australia) and everyone has converted to electric. You pull into a charging station area (akin to a USA truck stop). It's one thing to pull behind an ICE and wait 5 minutes. It's another to pull in behind an EV (or more) and wait 30 minutes before you even start to charge.

If I'm thinking about this correctly, it would take 6 times the number of charging stations as fuel pumps to accommodate the same number of vehicles per unit time. (I wouldn't object to 30 minutes if I got 500 miles and should welcome a break or even a stop for the day, but to blow an 1 to 1.5 hours ... yeesh.)

On top of which, most images I see of charging stations are at the end of a parking space. This means that when the person in front of you is done, he/she can't pull through. This means if you are waiting for that person, you have to wait out of the way to allow the person out of the parking space. This means you have to trust other patrons not to jump in front of you after you've already done the waiting.

So we need EV charging stations to be islands (ala fuel pumps) and we need six times the real estate that gas stations currently take.

 

[Ana the Ist]

...not really. Battery blankets are a thing according to the article (and it makes sense - a colder battery requires more energy to warm it up to optimum charging temperature.

We've gone from car bras to car blankets.

I'm not in the market currently for any vehicle especially with current market prices. I'll see what's available in 2-3 years....and at what price.

I am...and from what I've seen prices are dropping. Could be local though.

 

[rambot]

It got down to -52C with windchill in my home town. No reports of significant complaints about mileage. I have 3 friends with electrics and they say it hasn't affected their tiny car usage in a meaningful way at all. Their commute is short and they rarely go far. And when it's cold, of course, there are TIMES you don't actually have to use your car cause you want to hunker down.

Honestly, hunkering down in deep cold is a wonderful experience. It was so cold but the sun was out and the sky was brilliantly blue and cloudless. Bundle up and go for a 10 minute walk.... Then just sit inside and read.

(And stress out about my poor poor chickens who were choose to not go back into their coop over the snap).

 

[FireDragon76]

Since I live in an apartment I have no way to plug in an electric vehicle. I would have to make time to visit charging stations to keep an electric vehicle charged. As I write this the temperature is 12°f, which wouldn't be good on an electric vehicle.

I currently own two gas engine vehicles. I'm considering changing to a Prius for better mileage. The biggest consideration for me with a hybrid is battery replacement cost. A Prius costs $4-5k for a dealership to replace the battery, or you can do it yourself for around $2k. That's every 8-10 years.

The other option I'm considering is a gas engine economy car instead of a hybrid. Something inexpensive.

The simplified power train on a hybrid could save you big money potentially. The transmission seems to be alot more reliable than traditional automatic transmissions. A few months ago I took a ride in a hybrid Toyota Camry that a taxi driver was using, and he said it had 600,00 miles and he was still using the original battery. The ride was incredibly smooth.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Interesting problem: The batteries seem to have to be brought up to a certain temperature in order to rapid charge them. But some of the article implies there is no power at these charging stations. If it's the former problem, then it's interesting that the Tesla or charging stations cannot bring the batteries up to temperature in this kind of cold.

The batteries they use in these EV cars I dealt with in another capacity elsewhere and they are very temperature sensitive.

You have to be careful in heat or they can blow up, and in too much cold they stop working properly...

They are finicky for sure. I would never want to rely on them solely for my transportation, for real.

I am waiting for some other battery invention to come along before going EV, because what we have right now is unreliable.

I read in a Science Magazine recently that they think we have discovered a better battery, so we will see how that goes.

 

[Hazelelponi]

The simplified power train on a hybrid could save you big money potentially. The transmission seems to be alot more reliable than traditional automatic transmissions. A few months ago I took a ride in a hybrid Toyota Camry that a taxi driver was using, and he said it had 600,00 miles and he was still using the original battery. The ride was incredibly smooth.

I think everyone that owns a hybrid loves it. I don't think I've ever heard bad of them.

 

[SimplyMe]

The batteries they use in these EV cars I dealt with in another capacity elsewhere and they are very temperature sensitive.

You have to be careful in heat or they can blow up,

Odd, then, that we haven't heard of all the EVs in Arizona blowing up. This would be doubly true of hybrids, which have that same type of battery combined with a very hot running Internal Combustion Engine (and typically don't have the liquid cooling systems for the battery that an EV have).

While I won't try to claim that heat isn't bad for a battery and that they won't ever blow up, it isn't something that should happen without damage or manufacturing flaw in an EV. Even more ironic, the fact that you don't have the same concern about a gasoline vehicle, where you pump gallons for explosive fuel into the vehicle. It is also worth noting that, per miles driven or per cars on the road, either stat, gasoline cars catch fire more frequently than EVs.

and in too much cold they stop working properly...

Again, I pointed out earlier how there are few complaints in Norway, which has heavy adoption of EVs, and the temperatures can be as cold as most populated areas of Earth. As I also pointed out, gasoline engines also have that problem, losing roughly the same percentage of range, and diesel engines are likely the worst in cold engine (since diesel solidifies about 15 degrees). There are reason diesel trucks keep their engines running, even when stopping for breaks in cold weather -- because too frequently they won't restart because of the affect of the cold on the diesel engine.

They are finicky for sure. I would never want to rely on them solely for my transportation, for real.

I am waiting for some other battery invention to come along before going EV, because what we have right now is unreliable.

I read in a Science Magazine recently that they think we have discovered a better battery, so we will see how that goes.

And it is fine if you don't want an EV. They do have some nice advantages but also some disadvantages and the currently battery/motor technology is likely (in terms of what it will be) more similar to where gasoline cars were in the first half of the 20th Century. Toyota's claims of having a capacitive battery that will be ready late this decade is one of the battery technologies that sounds promising -- though I question how mature the battery technology is and if they can make it do what the promise -- if they could today they would be putting it into their current EV. At some point, we will get better batteries that provide longer range and faster charging (which will cause other issues, in terms of power delivery) and we'll look at today's EVs like we look at the classic cars of the last century.

 

[FireDragon76]

The batteries they use in these EV cars I dealt with in another capacity elsewhere and they are very temperature sensitive.

You have to be careful in heat or they can blow up, and in too much cold they stop working properly...

They are finicky for sure. I would never want to rely on them solely for my transportation, for real.

I am waiting for some other battery invention to come along before going EV, because what we have right now is unreliable.

I read in a Science Magazine recently that they think we have discovered a better battery, so we will see how that goes.

I'm more interested in seeing electric motorcycles and e-Bikes, as far as battery vehicles go. It seems like a more sustainable use of battery technology. A move towards less cars would also have long-term positive impacts on American society.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I'm more interested in seeing electric motorcycles and e-Bikes, as far as battery vehicles go. It seems like a more sustainable use of battery technology. A move towards less cars would also have long-term positive impacts on American society.

Yeah when I lived in the city I did so using public transportation most the time... even for grocery shopping a portion of the time.

If you live closer to where you work bikes and tiny vehicle technology is a positive thing... (Winter you need enclosed transportation though).

When I lived within 3 miles of work I just walked. That was nice.



** When I say tiny vehicles I'm talking about those little electric cars that are super small. Lol.

 

[FireDragon76]

Yeah when I lived in the city I did so using public transportation most the time... even for grocery shopping a portion of the time.

If you live closer to where you work bikes and tiny vehicle technology is a positive thing... (Winter you need enclosed transportation though).

When I lived within 3 miles of work I just walked. That was nice.

Countries like Sweden and Finland show you can have alot of folks riding bikes, even in the winter.

In the past I rode motorcycles down to about the upper 40's (only because that's as cold as Florida usually gets). With the right gear, you can ride even colder, using electric heated clothing.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Countries like Sweden and Finland show you can have alot of folks riding bikes, even in the winter.

In the past I rode motorcycles down to about the upper 40's (only because that's as cold as Florida usually gets). With the right gear, you can ride even colder, using electric heated clothing.

I've ridden down into the teens.