• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Evolution's Brick Wall

Status
Not open for further replies.

DogmaHunter

Code Monkey
Jan 26, 2014
16,757
8,532
Antwerp
✟165,905.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Why do you have to write a long reply? Just state your disagreements.

Stating ones disagreements with an Answers in Genesis article, is bound to be a very long list of disagreements.

They have a habbit of making 2 to 4 false claims per sentence.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Job 33:6
Upvote 0

DogmaHunter

Code Monkey
Jan 26, 2014
16,757
8,532
Antwerp
✟165,905.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
By sources... you mean those with elastic definitions I suppose.

No. I mean those sources that aren't made by people who have the conclusion in their heads already before even asking the question.

And who's "work" is literally about making reality fit their beliefs instead of the other way round.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Job 33:6
Upvote 0

DogmaHunter

Code Monkey
Jan 26, 2014
16,757
8,532
Antwerp
✟165,905.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Let's hear them.
Sorry, no, I got better things to do with my time. I'm already wasting enough of it on here as it is.

All you need to know about AiG, is that -by their very own admission- "they start from the premise that the bible is absolute truth" and that nothing (nothing, NOTHING NOTHING) will EVER convince them otherwise.

When evidence comes up that disagrees with their fundamentalist beliefs, then they will assume the evidence is wrong. That's how far gone these people are.

If you want to use them as a reference to start arguing against 21st century biology, be my guest.
But be aware that your credibility on the subject will be paying an immediate price.

One argues against scientific ideas with better and more science, not with fundamentalist religious beliefs.


Apparantly pitabread is prepared to put in time and energy to discuss the ignorance exposed in said article. I suggest you await his post.
 
Upvote 0

inquiring mind

and a discerning heart
Site Supporter
Dec 31, 2016
7,221
3,311
U.S.
✟720,194.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Sorry, no, I got better things to do with my time. I'm already wasting enough of it on here as it is.

All you need to know about AiG, is that -by their very own admission- "they start from the premise that the bible is absolute truth" and that nothing (nothing, NOTHING NOTHING) will EVER convince them otherwise.

When evidence comes up that disagrees with their fundamentalist beliefs, then they will assume the evidence is wrong. That's how far gone these people are.

If you want to use them as a reference to start arguing against 21st century biology, be my guest.
But be aware that your credibility on the subject will be paying an immediate price.

One argues against scientific ideas with better and more science, not with fundamentalist religious beliefs.


Apparantly pitabread is prepared to put in time and energy to discuss the ignorance exposed in said article. I suggest you await his post.
As I said before, I think everyone can figure the responses out.
 
Upvote 0

USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
Site Supporter
Dec 25, 2003
42,070
16,821
Dallas
✟941,421.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Upvote 0

inquiring mind

and a discerning heart
Site Supporter
Dec 31, 2016
7,221
3,311
U.S.
✟720,194.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
That article is insipid drivel. The idiotic drawing where he claims that all "dogs" were one species and then shows two non-dogs, a feral domesticated dog and a dog breed was laughable.
If any one of those ran across someone's yard and they were asked to describe what it looked like... what do you think they would say?
 
Upvote 0

USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
Site Supporter
Dec 25, 2003
42,070
16,821
Dallas
✟941,421.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
If any one of those ran across someone's yard and they were asked to describe what it looked like... what do you think they would say?

Is this hypothetical someone scientifically literate? And what does your question have to do what I wrote?
 
Upvote 0

inquiring mind

and a discerning heart
Site Supporter
Dec 31, 2016
7,221
3,311
U.S.
✟720,194.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Is this hypothetical someone scientifically literate? And what does your question have to do what I wrote?
You said it was a laughable comparison. I'm simply saying how do you think the average person (or any person really) would describe any of those you mentioned?
Hint: It looked like a dog.
 
Upvote 0

USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
Site Supporter
Dec 25, 2003
42,070
16,821
Dallas
✟941,421.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
You said it was a laughable comparison.

And I was right.

I'm simply saying how do you think the average person (or any person really) would describe any of those you mentioned?

Which makes my point for me - that "the average person" is not the standard by which we determine which canids are a single species or three separate species and a breed.

Hint: It looked like a dog.

So that hypothetical someone was scientifically illiterate then. Gotcha.
 
Upvote 0

inquiring mind

and a discerning heart
Site Supporter
Dec 31, 2016
7,221
3,311
U.S.
✟720,194.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
And I was right.

Which makes my point for me - that "the average person" is not the standard by which we determine which canids are a single species or three separate species and a breed.

So that hypothetical someone was scientifically illiterate then. Gotcha.

I should've seen that! :doh:
 
Upvote 0

Justatruthseeker

Newbie
Site Supporter
Jun 4, 2013
10,132
996
Tulsa, OK USA
✟200,004.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Widowed
Politics
US-Others
And I was right.



Which makes my point for me - that "the average person" is not the standard by which we determine which canids are a single species or three separate species and a breed.



So that hypothetical someone was scientifically illiterate then. Gotcha.

It wasn't the average person that was fooled by a human skull cap and orangutang jaw. It wasnt the average person that was fooled by a pigs tooth.

It's not the average person that has decided all canids are a single species....

It's not the average person that sees finches mating in front of their eyes and thinks they are separate species.....

The average person can reason and isn't blinded by his propaganda....
 
Upvote 0

pitabread

Well-Known Member
Jan 29, 2017
12,920
13,373
Frozen North
✟351,833.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
Why do you have to write a long reply?

Because it's a long article. :p

Just state your disagreements. I think everyone can figure it out.

I hope so.

To start, there are some immediate problems with this section:

The Bible uses the term “kind.” The Bible’s first use of this word (Hebrew: min) is found in Genesis 1when God creates plants and animals “according to their kinds.” It is used again in Genesis 6 and 8 when God instructs Noah to take two of every kind of land-dwelling, air-breathing animal onto the ark and also in God’s command for the animals to reproduce after the Flood. A plain reading of the text infers that plants and animals were created to reproduce within the boundaries of their kind. Evidence to support this concept is clearly seen (or rather not seen) in our world today, as there are no reports of dats (dog + cat) or hows (horse + cow)!

We'll go with the Bible as a starting point here, but they're already making extra-Biblical interpretations. For instance, the Bible doesn't make any reference to any boundaries with respect to the original created life. This is a point I raised in another thread here: Creationists: Demonstrate that wolves and dogs weren't created independently. There doesn't appear to be a way to validate whether originally created 'kinds' could or could not have interbred.

Even if we go with the idea that life is restricted to reproducing in the "boundaries of their kind", this would largely follow for any reproductive population regardless of the starting point. This is why I brought up the earlier example of three created kinds based on the three domains of life: Bacteria, Archaea, and Eukaryota. Any subsequent diversification and evolution of species in those lineages will always be either Bacteria, Archaea or Eukaryota. Organisms are always bound by their lineage. That article isn't saying anything different than we would expect from biological evolution.

So a good rule of thumb is that if two things can breed together, then they are of the same created kind. It is a bit more complicated than this, but for the time being, this is a quick measure of a “kind.”

The above is arbitrary. They would need to externally validate this assumption. I'm not aware of any rationale (other than their Bible interpretation) whereby this is the case.

For living organisms, hybridization is a key criterion. If two animals can produce a hybrid, then they are considered to be of the same kind.1However, the inability to produce offspring does not necessarily rule out that the animals are of the same kind, since this may be the result of mutations (since the Fall).

This once again reinforces the evolutionary scenario. Eukaryota might as well be considered a "kind". They are populations of Eukaryotes that can interbreed and produce offspring. And there are non-fertile boundaries that have evolved over time between other populations of Eukaryotes that prevent interbreeding.

Of course they don't want to have "kinds" at the domain level:

Baramin is commonly believed to be at the level of family and possibly order for some plants/animals (according to the common classification scheme of kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus, species). On rare occasions, a kind may be equivalent to the genus or species levels.

For humans they certainly won't go with family or order level of classification. Otherwise primates could be an entire created kind but they don't want us to be related in that way. This speaks to how arbitrary the "kind" concept really is.

(It's also worth noting the above contradicts many creationist definitions for "kinds" provided on this forum.)

It gets even more arbitrary...

The concept of kind is important for understanding how Noah fit all the animals on the ark. If kind is at the level of family/order, there would have been plenty of room on the ark to take two of every kind and seven of some.
This is the crux of the problem with creationist arguments about "kinds" (and likely why there are so many different definitions out there). In this specific case they are trying to force-fit biology with a mythological Bible tale. This is backwards as to how they should be approaching this: start with biology and see if this idea of "created kinds" has any biological merit then go from there.

(It's also bizarre they would need to worry about fitting animals on Noah's Ark in the first place. The entire story of Noah and the Flood has numerous physical impossibilities associated with it. Creationists often 'miracle away' these impossibilities, so why not do the same with the problem of animals fitting on the Ark?)

Skipping ahead some we get to this:

The idea of one kind changing into another can be argued against based on the fact that no such change has ever been observed.

Well sure, but the same applies under biological evolution. A Eukaryote will never become a non-Eukaryote because any descendants will always be bound by its lineage. However, that doesn't mean that said descendants can't reproduce, evolve and produce a multitude of biological forms over time.

---------------------------------------

Rather than provide any answers, this article merely raises the same questions:

1) What is the biological criteria by which created kinds could or could not have interbred with other kinds? How can creationists validate this with respect to originally created 'kinds' of organisms?

2) What is the biological criteria by which originally created kinds can be defined? Picking arbitrary Linnaean ranks doesn't tell us anything.

3) What is the biological limit for reproducing within a created kind? If the argument is that biological organisms are bound by their lineage, this is also true under biological evolution from common ancestors. But that doesn't imply a biological limit under which said lineages can evolve over time.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Paul of Eugene OR

Finally Old Enough
Site Supporter
May 3, 2014
6,373
1,858
✟301,032.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
On CF there is a constant bombardment of godless posters (people speaking who know not God is, and active in present world) who have set the Bible aside likewise - but want to educate us of reality, even of this world.

If they are not Spirit led and God centered in action and thought than they can keep the great understanding and knowledge they promote us to hear and heed.
Have you checked out the spiritual condition of all the people who were involved in making your computer? If you don't know they were all born again, you have to stop using your computer, according to your logic here anyway . . . and I bet not all of them were.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Job 33:6
Upvote 0

USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
Site Supporter
Dec 25, 2003
42,070
16,821
Dallas
✟941,421.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
I'm curious as to whether @inquiring mind was ever going to respond to these posts.

1. Why do Creationists erroneously think that fossils are the only evidence we have for evolution?
2. How about we try two experiments involving fossils. The first one is a chronological lineup of hominid fossil skulls with a chimpanzee skull in the upper left for reference. Please tell me where you draw the line between "ape" and "human" and why you do so at that point.
3. For the second one I'd like for you to tell me if it's "ape" or "human" and why you conclude as you do.
View attachment 240478
View attachment 240479

Indeed it is. In fact this one's particular features make it a perfect example of a transitional fossil between Sarcopterygiians (lobe-finned fish) and terrestrial tetrapods.



1. Why do some think that childish mockery is an effective means of discussion?
2. Science doesn't prove things.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...sconceptions-about-science-i-scientific-proof
3. No single fossil or any other piece of evidence is "the one". Scientific theories are built on bodies of evidence, not a single example.
4. There have been many thousands of transitional fossils discovered over the last 200 years. Each of them received some fanfare at the time of their discovery, others were more muted. It depends on the lead author of the paper and whether they make the discovery more of a public event (with books and TV appearances). From human evolution take AL-288-1 also known as Lucy which is quite famous and has made her discoverer Don Johanson quite famous as well. On the other hand the I have no idea who discovered the even more complete but not quite as famous WT-15000 also known as Turkana Boy.
(edit - I thought it might be Richard Leakey and checking I see it was one of his team members and Leakey is one of the paper authors.)



1. See number 4 above.
2. Tiktaalik was the fossil version of summer blockbuster. Neil Shubin wrote a Best Selling book after the find and in 2014 made a three part documentary for PBS. To act as if this discovery was not a big deal betrays an ignorance of how it was received.
3. We're making incredible fossil discoveries every year. One of most recent to finally be a blockbuster for the science literate was Little Foot who was unveiled to the public in 2017 after 20 years.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-42250530
 
  • Like
Reactions: Job 33:6
Upvote 0

inquiring mind

and a discerning heart
Site Supporter
Dec 31, 2016
7,221
3,311
U.S.
✟720,194.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
I'm curious as to whether @inquiring mind was ever going to respond to these posts.

1. Why do Creationists erroneously think that fossils are the only evidence we have for evolution?

We don’t. It’s just that it should be the easiest ‘connect-the-dots’ verification, and with all the effort and concentration evolutionists have put into that area of their search, any reasonably thinking person would think their claims would be substantiated by now.

2. How about we try two experiments involving fossils. The first one is a chronological lineup of hominid fossil skulls with a chimpanzee skull in the upper left for reference. Please tell me where you draw the line between "ape" and "human" and why you do so at that point.

You can’t prove (I know you try to avoid this word because it’s not elastic enough) the connection, but you want me to do it, in effect picking the transformation point for you. Sorry, that’s your problem... Creationists know better.

3. For the second one I'd like for you to tell me if it's "ape" or "human" and why you conclude as you do.
View attachment 240478
View attachment 240479

Same answer as for #2.


1. Why do some think that childish mockery is an effective means of discussion?

We don’t. It’s usually just answering ‘in kind.’

2. Science doesn't prove things.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...sconceptions-about-science-i-scientific-proof

Your particular area of science especially.


3. No single fossil or any other piece of evidence is "the one". Scientific theories are built on bodies of evidence, not a single example.

There are corner stones for any solid building.


4. There have been many thousands of transitional fossils discovered over the last 200 years. Each of them received some fanfare at the time of their discovery, others were more muted. It depends on the lead author of the paper and whether they make the discovery more of a public event (with books and TV appearances). From human evolution take AL-288-1 also known as Lucy which is quite famous and has made her discoverer Don Johanson quite famous as well. On the other hand the I have no idea who discovered the even more complete but not quite as famous WT-15000 also known as Turkana Boy.
(edit - I thought it might be Richard Leakey and checking I see it was one of his team members and Leakey is one of the paper authors.)

I don’t see a question here, so I’m not going to further waste my time assuming one.



1. See number 4 above.

Sorry, just don’t see a question there.

2. Tiktaalik was the fossil version of summer blockbuster. Neil Shubin wrote a Best Selling book after the find and in 2014 made a three part documentary for PBS. To act as if this discovery was not a big deal betrays an ignorance of how it was received.

I’m sure you can point to a reference showing complete agreement with his interpretation of the find within the scientific community then?

3. We're making incredible fossil discoveries every year. One of most recent to finally be a blockbuster for the science literate was Little Foot who was unveiled to the public in 2017 after 20 years.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-42250530

Back to fossils again? Even 'your' first question sort of dismissed them as a principal source of reliable evidence. Why should we find it exciting news?

*** Just so you know ahead of time, I'm going to ignore any further barrage of questioning such as this.*** Oh, and have some more fish.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.