Evolution's Brick Wall: Part II

[Kylie]

If you want to use the label, use the label.

If you want to categorize a lion and call it Panthera leo, then do so if it'll help you understand the animal world more.

But don't go around saying "Panthera" is not a "kind" because Panthera is a "genus," or you need to be corrected.

What are you going on about?

If the Biblical Kind has any legitimacy to it, then it existed BEFORE Humans came and put Genus labels on things.

So, I once again ask you: Is Boloceroides daphneae of the same Kind as Boloceroides mcmurrichi?

I'm even TELLING you the genus here! Why can't you answer a simple question?

 

[Kylie]

are you talking about yourself? because its seems you are...

Oh, this is just pathetic. Are you really acting like a little kid with that, "I know you are, I said you are, but what am I?" or "Takes one to know one" argument?

 

[Justatruthseeker]

And given that both male and female offspring from such a pairing would be fertile, it indicates that the two parent dogs are much more closely related than a lion and a tiger.

Your example falls apart.

No, my example stands since the female Liger is still so closely related it can interbreed with both the Tiger and the Lion.

As I said, if you want to try to claim the male Liger is a separate species from the female Liger, This can be discussed.

Just remember your own claim. If interbreeding is not a foolproof indicator of same species, then not interbreeding is not a foolproof indicator of separate species....

Why are you trying to talk about biology when you obviously have no idea how it works?

Says those ignoring animals so closely related they mate right in front of their noses.....

So your claims in light of the facts don’t mean much.....

It's painful trying to talk to you about biology when you know so little about it that you are incapable of knowing how little you know about it.

Says those ignoring animals so closely related they mate right in front of their noses.....

So your claims in light of the facts don’t mean that much....

Wow, you are totally incapable of actually comprehending English, aren't you?

First, I posted that source that said MAY the very first time I brought up the subject, so you can't say I have changed my views. I am reiterating the view given by the source I posted the very first time we discussed it.

Secondly, in that same post, I said "OFTEN" requires C sections.

And yet now you are trying to claim that I said that they ALWAYS required C sections and have since changed that claim. I have done no such thing. Don't lie to me about the things that I have said. NA dif that's the only way you can make your point, then your point is rubbish and should be kept silent.

Since others on here wanted to play the report game (they know who they are) this is the only and last warning you will get.

Since the game is underfoot, I’m going to show you all how to play it.....

I'll accept that. In any case, it doesn't take away from my other points - the infertility of male ligers indicates that lions and tigers are evolving away from each other, and the fertility problems we see are exactly what we'd expect to see if evolution were true.

Except the fertility of the female Liger shows they haven’t evolved to the point of separate species.

As I said above, if you want to try to make a case that male Ligers are a separate species from female Ligers I would be willing to consider such. But since that means the male Liger species is on its way to extinction the designation would be meaningless....

And just goes to show what happens when they diverge too much.... not evolution, but extinction...... divergence to the point offspring is no longer possible, not a new line....

 

[Subduction Zone]

No, my example stands since the female Liger is still so closely related it can interbreed with both the Tiger and the Lion.

As I said, if you want to try to claim the male Liger is a separate species from the female Liger, This can be discussed.

Just remember your own claim. If interbreeding is not a foolproof indicator of same species, then not interbreeding is not a foolproof indicator of separate species....







Says those ignoring animals so closely related they mate right in front of their noses.....

So your claims in light of the facts don’t mean much.....



Says those ignoring animals so closely related they mate right in front of their noses.....

So your claims in light of the facts don’t mean that much....

Do you have any links that support this claim of interbreeding of Ligers with a male from either species? From what I have read they have very limited fertility and there does not appear to be any record of liligers or titigons breeding at all.

Tigers and lions are different species because crosses, though they may live in captivity, will not survive in the wild. Even with just tigers and lions the number of deaths is very high. All male hybrids have been sterile, not only in practice but when dissected after death males have been demonstrated to be sterile:

Liger - Wikipedia

Panthera hybrid - Wikipedia

The problem appears to get worse with each generation. If you want to claim they are the same species you would need to show that the problem of sterility goes away, that does not appear to be the case.

 

[Kylie]

No, my example stands since the female Liger is still so closely related it can interbreed with both the Tiger and the Lion.

Irrelevant, since it CAN'T breed with other Ligers!

As I said, if you want to try to claim the male Liger is a separate species from the female Liger, This can be discussed.

Are you seriously trying to claim that different sexes are different species? Once again, you demonstrate that you have no idea what you are talking about...

Just remember your own claim. If interbreeding is not a foolproof indicator of same species, then not interbreeding is not a foolproof indicator of separate species....

True. Then let's say genetic similarity is a better indication of species. As two different populations evolve away from their common ancestor, they become more and more different to each other genetically.

And one result of increasing genetic difference is an inability to interbreed. The more different they are to each other, the less likely interbreeding is.

Says those ignoring animals so closely related they mate right in front of their noses.....

And if the speciation event was very recent, interbreeding may still be possible.

Since others on here wanted to play the report game (they know who they are) this is the only and last warning you will get.

Since the game is underfoot, I’m going to show you all how to play it.....

I'm sorry, do you think that I'm breaking the rules by pointing out that you are misrepresenting my position and using a strawman argument?

Except the fertility of the female Liger shows they haven’t evolved to the point of separate species.

As I said above, if you want to try to make a case that male Ligers are a separate species from female Ligers I would be willing to consider such. But since that means the male Liger species is on its way to extinction the designation would be meaningless....

And just goes to show what happens when they diverge too much.... not evolution, but extinction...... divergence to the point offspring is no longer possible, not a new line....

Except that the fact that ligers have fertility issues is exactly the kind of evidence that we'd expect to see if lions and tigers were evolving away from each other.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Do you have any links that support this claim of interbreeding of Ligers with a male from either species? From what I have read they have very limited fertility and there does not appear to be any record of liligers or titigons breeding at all.

Tigers and lions are different species because crosses, though they may live in captivity, will not survive in the wild. Even with just tigers and lions the number of deaths is very high. All male hybrids have been sterile, not only in practice but when dissected after death males have been demonstrated to be sterile:

Liger - Wikipedia

Panthera hybrid - Wikipedia

The problem appears to get worse with each generation. If you want to claim they are the same species you would need to show that the problem of sterility goes away, that does not appear to be the case.

Sure, it’s well documented....

The litigon rediscovered - Nature India

Liliger - An Offspring of Lion & Liger

That’s just it, with each change, they are becoming less and less able to reproduce. This is not supporting evolution, but disproving it. A new species is not being formed capable of passing on its genes, but slowly leading to non reproduction and extinction.....

Evolution is falsified. Even if we assume incorrectly that they are separate species, your best case scenario, it is leading to not even being able to reproduce, not to better fitness......

And your claim of them not being able to exist in the wild is based upon false premises. Physically the are stronger and faster than either of the parents. The only reason they do not is because the habitats of the parents do not overlap naturally. But your claim falsifies your own belief in evolution, as geological changes happen and territories change, bringing what was once separated into contact......

So according to this belief, the American Indian should be a separate species since it was reproductively isolated for 10,000 years or more......

Ahh, but now you all will argue against the very thing you are arguing for....... even when American Indians are still capable of reproduction with others when brought together, just as the Tiger is capable of reproduction with the Lion when brought together.....

So let’s hear no more false claims of habitat and separation......

 

[Subduction Zone]

Sure, it’s well documented....

The litigon rediscovered - Nature India

Liliger - An Offspring of Lion & Liger

That’s just it, with each change, they are becoming less and less able to reproduce. This is not supporting evolution, but disproving it. A new species is not being formed capable of passing on its genes, but slowly leading to non reproduction and extinction.....

Evolution is falsified. Even if we assume incorrectly that they are separate species, your best case scenario, it is leading to not even being able to reproduce, not to better fitness......

And your claim of them not being able to exist in the wild is based upon false premises. Physically the are stronger and faster than either of the parents. The only reason they do not is because the habitats of the parents do not overlap naturally. But your claim falsifies your own belief in evolution, as geological changes happen and territories change, bringing what was once separated into contact......

So according to this belief, the American Indian should be a separate species since it was reproductively isolated for 10,000 years or more......

Ahh, but now you all will argue against the very thing you are arguing for....... even when f American Indians are still capable of reproduction with others when brought together, just as the Tiger is capable of reproduction with the Lion when brought together.....

So let’s hear no more false claims of habitat and separation......

You have that backwards as usual. That they cannot interbreed successfully, which you just admitted to, supports speciation.

 

[Heissonear]

You have that backwards as usual. That they cannot interbreed successfully, which you just admitted to, supports speciation.

Here we go again.

A point of view which takes only the godless (without need of God in this world to bring about) would promote. Including God in the equation is removed.

That does not fly. Such has produced misinformation.

What was presented by TS is how evolution does not work as presented. Such breeding eventually degrades the species.

You state that is evolution. To make other species.

Excuse me. The original species were created, not evolved from some other creature. And such created creature was degraded over time, not more refined and more complex.

It has been through ungodly perception and reasoning evolution has matered in academia and over promoted by those indoctrinated by such godless errant literature.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Here we go again.

A point of view which takes only the godless (without need of God in this world to bring about) would promote. Including God in the equation is removed.

That does not fly. Such has produced misinformation.

What was presented by TS is how evolution does not work as presented. Such breeding eventually degrades the species.

You state that is evolution. To make other species.

Excuse me. The original species were created, not evolved from some other creature. And such created creature was degraded over time, not more refined and more complex.

It has been through ungodly perception and reasoning evolution has matered in academia and over promoted by those indoctrinated by such godless errant literature.

That is clearly false since many believers not only disagree with you but have worked on the science themselves. Are false attacks against people, most of them fellow Christians, all that you have?

 

[Jimmy D]

What was presented by TS is how evolution does not work as presented. Such breeding eventually degrades the species.

You state that is evolution. To make other species.

I don't think SZ believes that "evolution" is two separate species mating to create a third... he's not an idiot.

Excuse me. The original species were created, not evolved from some other creature. And such created creature was degraded over time, not more refined and more complex.

Have you got any evidence to back up that claim?

 

[AV1611VET]

... he's not an idiot.

That's true.

An idiot isn't an idiot by choice.

A fool is.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That's true.

An idiot isn't an idiot by choice.

A fool is.

And there goes another irony meter.

 

[AV1611VET]

And there goes another irony meter.

Incidentally, what's academia's definition of "fool"?

 

[tas8831]

Here we go again.

Indeed...

Excuse me. The original species were created, not evolved from some other creature.

This is just conjecture, no evidence. This is speculation.

And such created creature was degraded over time, not more refined and more complex.

Hold on - why did this (un)created creature degrade?

Oh, right - 'the Curse'. How nice - a great example of unending love, this extinction-via-mutation Curse God put on us.

Given your claimed education in molecular biology, can you tell us all why this notion (extinction via mutation) is at odds with something we all have in our genomes?

tick tock
tick tock


I have to ask - is English your first language?

 

[AV1611VET]

Given your claimed education in molecular biology, can you tell us all why this notion (extinction via mutation) is at odds with something we all have in our genomes?

Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

God's creation fights entropy, groaning in pain as it does.

It takes any input it can and uses it to its advantage to slow the process.

Academia calls that: "thermodynamics".

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Irrelevant, since it CAN'T breed with other Ligers!

Relevant, since it CAN breed with Lions and Tigers!!!!!! As I said, are you suggesting that the male Liger is a separate species from the female Liger????

Are you seriously trying to claim that different sexes are different species? Once again, you demonstrate that you have no idea what you are talking about...

No, you are. It is you that wants Lions and Tigers despite the ability to produce fertile offspring to be separate species... Female Ligers can produce fertile offspring, only the male Ligers can not.

Make up your mind what argument you are going to argue and stop flipping back and forth at whim....

True. Then let's say genetic similarity is a better indication of species. As two different populations evolve away from their common ancestor, they become more and more different to each other genetically.

And one result of increasing genetic difference is an inability to interbreed. The more different they are to each other, the less likely interbreeding is.

Agreed, to the point of the male Liger which can't breed with anything.... Not into another species which continues it's line. It simply shows where your beliefs of evolution lead once they diverge too far.... Extinction, not a new genetic line.....

And if the speciation event was very recent, interbreeding may still be possible.

What speciation event? If they are still interbreeding then they haven't diverged far enough to become a separate species. And when they do they can't interbreed at all.....

I'm sorry, do you think that I'm breaking the rules by pointing out that you are misrepresenting my position and using a strawman argument?

Call facts a strawman all you like. If you can't figure it out you'll know it when you repeat it....

Except that the fact that ligers have fertility issues is exactly the kind of evidence that we'd expect to see if lions and tigers were evolving away from each other.

Except the problem is it leads to non-reproducibility, not a new line that will continue....

And no, it is exactly what we would expect to see when the Kind has exhausted the variation already possible within the genome.... Dead ends, not a new line that continues on.....

All you need do is accept the facts as they are and realize they are not becoming more fit, but less fit, to the point of not even being able to interbreed with one of their own species...... the exact opposite of what evolution claims.....

Evolution is falsified..... they are reaching the point where they are unable to reproduce, not reaching the point of a new level of fitness in which the offspring carry on into a new line.....

 

[Kylie]

Relevant, since it CAN breed with Lions and Tigers!!!!!! As I said, are you suggesting that the male Liger is a separate species from the female Liger????

No, I am saying that lions and tigers are NOT ligers! This is not s difficult concept to grasp, yet you seem to be intentionally going out of your way to ignore it.

There is no way to produce a liger except by breeding two NON-ligers. When it comes to breeding lions, we have a lion mother and lion father. When it comes to breeding tigers, we have a tiger mother and tiger father. Simple enough, yes? When it comes to breeding ligers, trying to get a liger mother and a liger father DOESN'T WORK!

No, you are. It is you that wants Lions and Tigers despite the ability to produce fertile offspring to be separate species... Female Ligers can produce fertile offspring, only the male Ligers can not.

Not entirely fertile - male ligers are sterile! You can never breed a liger with a liger!

Agreed, to the point of the male Liger which can't breed with anything.... Not into another species which continues it's line. It simply shows where your beliefs of evolution lead once they diverge too far.... Extinction, not a new genetic line.....

So you agree with me. And since ligers can't breed with other ligers, then it is evidence that lions and tigers are evolving away from each other.

What speciation event? If they are still interbreeding then they haven't diverged far enough to become a separate species. And when they do they can't interbreed at all.....

It's not an on/off thing, you know. I have lost track of how many times I have had to say this. It's not like one generation they can interbreed with nary a problem and then the next generation there is no interbreeding at all. And that is EXACTLY what the sterile male liger thing shows!

Call facts a strawman all you like. If you can't figure it out you'll know it when you repeat it....

Oh, cut it out.

I posted a source which said that liger birth can require C-sections. It did not say liger births ALWAYS require C sections. I also said that liger births OFTEN require C-sections. Again, I did not say liger births ALWAYS require C-sections.

Yet you seem to think that I was saying that liger births ALWAYS require C-sections, and you had a little rant about it.

And perhaps you completely missed the part where I said I'd accept the claim that ligers didn't pose much of a problem as they were about the same size as a regular cub anyway? In post 306? No, you didn't miss it, you simply used it as an opportunity to make the claim that females of one species can be a different species than the males of that species.

Except the problem is it leads to non-reproducibility, not a new line that will continue....

Which supports my claim.

And no, it is exactly what we would expect to see when the Kind has exhausted the variation already possible within the genome.... Dead ends, not a new line that continues on.....

So we would expect to see dead ends?

Like a liger that is totally incapable of breeding with other ligers? How the only option it has is to breed with either lions or tigers, resulting in a dilution of the genetic material from the other parent species?

All you need do is accept the facts as they are and realize they are not becoming more fit, but less fit, to the point of not even being able to interbreed with one of their own species...... the exact opposite of what evolution claims.....

Actually, that is exactly what evolution predicts - two species evolving away from each other will find it more and more difficult to interbreed and produce fertile offspring. That is EXACTLY what is happening with ligers!

Evolution is falsified..... they are reaching the point where they are unable to reproduce, not reaching the point of a new level of fitness in which the offspring carry on into a new line.....

You have no idea what evolution actually is, do you?

 

[Kylie]

Sure, it’s well documented....

The litigon rediscovered - Nature India

Liliger - An Offspring of Lion & Liger

That’s just it, with each change, they are becoming less and less able to reproduce. This is not supporting evolution, but disproving it. A new species is not being formed capable of passing on its genes, but slowly leading to non reproduction and extinction.....

Evolution is falsified. Even if we assume incorrectly that they are separate species, your best case scenario, it is leading to not even being able to reproduce, not to better fitness......

And your claim of them not being able to exist in the wild is based upon false premises. Physically the are stronger and faster than either of the parents. The only reason they do not is because the habitats of the parents do not overlap naturally. But your claim falsifies your own belief in evolution, as geological changes happen and territories change, bringing what was once separated into contact......

So according to this belief, the American Indian should be a separate species since it was reproductively isolated for 10,000 years or more......

Ahh, but now you all will argue against the very thing you are arguing for....... even when American Indians are still capable of reproduction with others when brought together, just as the Tiger is capable of reproduction with the Lion when brought together.....

So let’s hear no more false claims of habitat and separation......

I suspect that I know what the trouble is...

You are viewing the inability of a liger to breed with another liger as evidence of some failure of evolution.

Instead, try thinking of ligers as an indicator of how similar lions and tigers are. The fact that ligers can't breed with other ligers indicates that lions and tigers are moving apart genetically. They are still similar enough that they can produce some offspring, but they are not so similar that the offspring are without problems.

In other words, when it comes to A+B=C, think of C as a measure of how similar A and B are.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

I suspect that I know what the trouble is...

You are viewing the inability of a liger to breed with another liger as evidence of some failure of evolution.

Instead, try thinking of ligers as an indicator of how similar lions and tigers are. The fact that ligers can't breed with other ligers indicates that lions and tigers are moving apart genetically. They are still similar enough that they can produce some offspring, but they are not so similar that the offspring are without problems.

In other words, when it comes to A+B=C, think of C as a measure of how similar A and B are.

And think of D not being able to mate with anything, even other D, and you see it is exactly that, the failure of evolution. If C has this much difficulty, then D or E is doomed.....

Let's assume you are correct (assume). Then Tigers and Lions are diverging to the point where they can no longer produce but barely fertile offspring.

But their mating is the ONLY time you see a new variation enter the lineage.....

Without their mating you only get Tigers and Lions, never anything new. This is why every creature in the fossil record remains exactly the same from the oldest for that creature to the youngest fossil for that creature.

New forms appear in the fossil record because A+B equaled C.

Not because A or B evolved into C.....

So we are in reality seeing not evolution, but the end of the variability already contained in the genome.

Just as 100+ breeds came from wolves, but you can not get 100 breeds from a Poodle...... The further you get from the original pair, the less and less variability remains......

 

[Justatruthseeker]

No, I am saying that lions and tigers are NOT ligers! This is not s difficult concept to grasp, yet you seem to be intentionally going out of your way to ignore it.

Ignoring is your specialty...

Lions, Tigers and Ligers all mate with one another. They are the SAME species. You may if you wish call them subspecies...

As we have already disused:

"Subspecies are simply populations or sets of populations within a species that are sufficiently distinct that taxonomists have found it convenient to formally name them, but not distinct enough to prevent hybridization where two populations come into contact."

There is no way to produce a liger except by breeding two NON-ligers. When it comes to breeding lions, we have a lion mother and lion father. When it comes to breeding tigers, we have a tiger mother and tiger father. Simple enough, yes? When it comes to breeding ligers, trying to get a liger mother and a liger father DOESN'T WORK!

And so evolution is dead, because Ligers will go extinct, not continue on despite being stronger and faster.... which is what you fail to accept.

Also need we discuss this all over again what a species is?

"For example the western populations of the Yellow-rumped Warbler (which have yellow throats) were previously considered a species, Audubon's Warbler, distinct from the eastern Myrtle Warblers (which have white throats), largely because of differences in appearance. Then it was discovered that the breeding ranges of Audubon's and Myrtle Warblers overlap broadly in a band from southeastern Alaska through central British Columbia to southern Alberta, and that the two "species" hybridize freely within this area. The forms intergrade, and taxonomists now consider them to be subspecies of a single species, the Yellow-rumped Warbler."

You haven't yet justified Lions and Tigers are separate species....

Not entirely fertile - male ligers are sterile! You can never breed a liger with a liger!

That remains to be seen.

Ligers are Sterile? Definitely Not!

How easily you forget that it took over 20 years in captivity and several generations born in captivity before we were able to get Tigers and Lions to even breed....

I mean it took them over 80 years to even notice those finches mating right in front of their noses.....

So you agree with me. And since ligers can't breed with other ligers, then it is evidence that lions and tigers are evolving away from each other.

No, it is evidence that they are nearing the end of the variability within the Kind.

Again, Lions only produce Lions. Tigers only produce Tigers. The only time you see variation is when A+B mate.... Just as the fossil record where A remains A until it goes extinct. B remains B until it goes extinct. C is born of A+B, it does not evolve from A or B.....

It's not an on/off thing, you know. I have lost track of how many times I have had to say this. It's not like one generation they can interbreed with nary a problem and then the next generation there is no interbreeding at all. And that is EXACTLY what the sterile male liger thing shows!

Exactly, it falsifies evolution as when the variation already in the genome has reached it's end, sterility is all that results......