Evolutionary debate

[Hespera]

Sure it does. That's what Paul is talking about. Go back to verse 15:
"And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus." That salvation through Jesus Christ is "every good work". And that is theology. Now go on to chapter 4 verses 1 and 2 and see what Paul calls Timothy to do as "good work".



Really? You are going to deny that the Logos was Jesus? Wow. You may be further lost to bibliolatry than I first thought.

John 1:14: "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. "

That isn't "direct"? Who else could John be referring to?



They different authors do not follow in succession. For instance, in Genesis 6-8 the stories of the different authors are intertwined: http://www.religioustolerance.org/jepd_gen.htm#flood

Genesis 1 (A) cannot be the same creation account as Genesis 2:4-3 (B).
1. The name of God is different between A and B. "Elohim" for A and "Yahweh" for B.
2. In A creation takes 6 days, in B (Genesis 2:4b) it happens in a single day (beyom).
3. In A the order of creation is: plants, water creatures and birds, land creatures, and then plural humans both male and female. In B the order of creation is: no plants but apparently seeds and no rain, a human male, plants, animals and birds (no water creatures), woman. In C males and females plural together are created together.
4. The mechanism of creation is different. In A all entities including creatures are spoken into existence -- "let there be" -- but in B all the animals and birds and the human male are formed from dust or soil. The human female is formed from the rib of the male.
5. Entrance of death for humans. A doesn't mention it. B is internally contradictory. Genesis 2:17 implies that eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil will cause death (within the day) but Genesis 3:22 says Adam and Eve are kicked out of the Garden so that they will not eat the fruit of the Tree of Eternal Life and "live forever", saying that they would have died anyway without eating the fruit.



If you look at what Hespera writes, you will see that it is creationism that leads to atheism. In fact, creationism and atheism share the same statements of faith.

Being "unbiblical" does not lead to atheism. Cell theory is not found in the Bible. Gravity is not found in the Bible. Neither is Relativity, the atomic theory of gasses, heliocentrism, round earth, etc. All are "unbiblical" and yet you don't have a worry that they lead to atheism.

There were atheists long before evolution was discovered.



Yes, in the story of Genesis 2 Adam was a human. So what? The story is not literal anyway. Adam = Dirt and Eve = Hearth. It is a story of Dirt and Hearth. It's an allegory. You see, by putting blinders on and trying to read the story as literal history, you miss the real messages God was trying to tell you!

As I noted, lots of theories not found in the Bible. Some of the theories -- such as flat earth and geocentrism -- which are found in the Bible are wrong.

Do you know that God has two books? Why are you looking only at one and insisting God has to put everything in that book?



I'm not doing that. You are the one that insists that evolution has to be in the Bible. I'm saying that Genesis 1-3 are theological stories. They tell theological messages. They are set in fictional histories, but the theological messages are just as valid under evolution (the real way God created) as they are in the fictional methods of how God created in the Bible.

Again, you keep talking about the Bible. The Bible. The Bible. Christianity isn't about the Bible. It's about God and Jesus. Please stop putting the Bible ahead of God and Jesus.

If you look at what Hespera writes, you will see that it is creationism that leads to atheism. In fact, creationism and atheism share the same statements of faith.

I would appreciate it if you did not bring my name in as support for nonsense that i didnt in any way intend or imply.

I'd thought you were too sophisticated and educated to speak such utter rubbish as this stuff about atheism having a statement of faith.

Im disappointed in you.

 

[Greatcloud]

Ok I miss spelled miraculous & hooey I got A's and B's in school. And have a college education. And Evolution is an unproven crock.

 

[AV1611VET]

I wonder if a person who cannot even spell common words or write a grammatical sentence is really likely to be educated enough to be able to say truthfully that the hundreds of thousands of scientists who do understand the data that goes into ToE are full of beans.

I don't know about 'full of beans', but a child should be able to look a scientist right in the eyes and tell him evolution is wrong.

 

[Hespera]

Ok I miss spelled miraculous & hooey I got A's and B's in school. And have a college education. And Evolution is an unproven crock.

There was a lot more than that! Evolution is not a proper noun. btw, and does not need to be capitalized.

As for the "crock", saying it is unproven is kind of like saying the bible is a book. Hardly a criticism; an educated person knows that theories in science are not provable.

If one were looking for a "crock" you could hardly beat the flood story!
Plain obvious impossibility; as a hypothesis it is, and has been, falsified a million times over. Not one lonely data point on earth to support it.

Evolution in the other hand is deeply supported by hard evidence from all over the world, and is so deeply intermeshed with all the hard sciences that to falsify it would be to blow most of what is known about science out of the wter. Not likely to happen!

And if strong contrast to "creationism> which has not one data point on its side, evolution has not one contrary data point, against it.

But hey, hand wave that all aside; its a "crock".

I find willful ignorance to be a strange thing, I dont know how people can be proud of it but there it is. Weird.

 

[Greatcloud]

I find willful ignorance to be a strange thing, I dont know how people can be proud of it but there it is. Weird.

Science will have to be rearanged then, because the theroy of evolution is wrong, and everything related to it will have to be re-evaluated. As far as proof for the flood there is plenty of proof in the geological record; there is a layer of sediment denoting a flood, found in that area of the world, and world wide. We are talking hard evidence here, not a fable that is only in someones imagination. Hard evidence that is proof of a flood.

World wide flood, world wide evidence...

 

[AV1611VET]

I find willful ignorance to be a strange thing, I dont know how people can be proud of it but there it is.

I was born ignert, and I'll die ignert --

 

[Cassiterides]

Yes, in the story of Genesis 2 Adam was a human. So what? The story is not literal anyway. Adam = Dirt and Eve = Hearth. It is a story of Dirt and Hearth. It's an allegory. You see, by putting blinders on and trying to read the story as literal history, you miss the real messages God was trying to tell you!

I adress the rest of your post when i have more time to look and respond at in in depth, however i can quickly explain the importance of adam = dust/dirt. I explained this in my first thread ''afterlife does not exist?'', in short:

Man's habitation is only the earth (Psalm 37: 11, 22, 29).
When man dies he returns to the ground. The Bible says when man dies he will return to the 'dust' (ground) ''go to one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.” (Ecclesiastes 3:19,20). Man was made from the dust, there he will return. The Bible frequently compares the nature of man to that of the animals. The Psalmist declares, speaking of both:
"Thou (God) takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust" (104:29). Ecclesiastes states: ''all are of the dust and all turn to dust again" (3:19-21). Men and animals have by nature the same fate: they all return to the ground. This is why it is vital to understand the literal historical first man adam and the creation account in Genesis.

 

[Hespera]

I find willful ignorance to be a strange thing, I dont know how people can be proud of it but there it is. Weird.

Science will have to be rearanged then, because the theroy of evolution is wrong, and everything related to it will have to be re-evaluated. As far as proof for the flood there is plenty of proof in the geological record; there is a layer of sediment denoting a flood, found in that area of the world, and world wide. We are talking hard evidence here, not a fable that is only in someones imagination. Hard evidence that is proof of a flood.

World wide flood, world wide evidence...

right-o.

 

[SkyWriting]

... Once you have changes that will produce a new species, there is nothing to stop multiple speciations spread thru time producing humans from "another form of life"..

The number of chromosomes.

 

[Greatcloud]

Endgame
God playing chess with Satan,"the end is over cry's the devil I rule the Earth." All around are disasters and destruction. Pain and tax deduction. A baby that was born in Bethleham fair, now hangs with silence in the air. "It is finished...." we heard him cry. "Whats this", says Satan "you can't come down here ; to hell where I rule and cause people to fear." "The pain and the shame that I give them are real." " No these keys are mine.... I forged them myself, What will you do with the keys it won't help." " Preach the Gospel no....... i'm fading fast, in my own prison cell with chains that last."

"There.... !"

Satan is set free...." the chess game now begins with me. I am white. This time i'll be careful. I'll hire the best, all of my faithful. Hah hah hah ha haa ..... They must pass my test they must bow to me and proclaim me as, King of the world, set free to trouble thee."
Now on the earth a volcaneo erupts killing thousands and destroying so much.
"Fools mate is coming continue this course. I will bring out my son he will ride a white horse. Mate is coming you cannot stop it see he comes in the clouds,with heaven atop it. The clouds reveal heaven . And supper is ready; You lose the game."

-Marshall Lancaster 2010 May







Evolution is an unproven crock of doo doo, and when it is recognised as so, all of science will have to change.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

I find willful ignorance to be a strange thing, I dont know how people can be proud of it but there it is. Weird.

Science will have to be rearanged then, because the theroy of evolution is wrong, and everything related to it will have to be re-evaluated. As far as proof for the flood there is plenty of proof in the geological record; there is a layer of sediment denoting a flood, found in that area of the world, and world wide. We are talking hard evidence here, not a fable that is only in someones imagination. Hard evidence that is proof of a flood.

World wide flood, world wide evidence...

This page contains a list of what we call PRATTS, Points Refuted A Thousand Times. None of the features discussed provide evidence for a global flood and some of them are stong evidence against it. It is a collection of nonsense designed to fool people with limited knowledge of geology and paleontology into believing there is evidence for an event that did not happen. Their mention of the Coconino sandstones is a case in point. The Coconinos are wind deposited sand dunes. The YEC claims about them are totally absurd as I pointed out on this board several years ago.
http://www.christianforums.com/t50735/

unfortunately the link to the beautiful pictures of insect tracks and rain drop impressions in the Coconinos no longer works.

Here is an analysis of the nonsense about the Coconino's on an Old Earth Creationist web site.
Creation Science Rebuttals, Creation Magazine, The Coconino Sandstone (Startling Evidence for Noah's Flood)

Every one of their supposed flood evidences is easily shown to not be what they claim by analysis of the actual geology and paleontology of the earth and not their deliberately distorted version. I have no more time now but I will try to provide refutations of the rest of their nonsense when I get time.

 

[Greatcloud]

Ooparts & Ancient High Technology--Evidence of Noah's Flood?

Perhaps this site will intrigue you , read very carefully the parts about Iraq. I have some evidence which I can't find online but its a canyon with bones from dinosaurs and humans and animals all jumbled together. I think it was in New Mexico or Arizona and the evidence was of massive death and a powerful force that jumbled those bones together,water. If you do not believe no proof is possible, if you do believe no proof is necessary.

 

[AV1611VET]

Endgame
God playing chess with Satan,"the end is over cry's the devil I rule the Earth."

Interesting, bro!

Satan will be defeated, but not by Fool's Mate though.

Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Fool's Mate is how the atheists are gonna lose --

​

Psalm 14:1 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Ooparts & Ancient High Technology--Evidence of Noah's Flood?

Perhaps this site will intrigue you , read very carefully the parts about Iraq. I have some evidence which I can't find online but its a canyon with bones from dinosaurs and humans and animals all jumbled together. I think it was in New Mexico or Arizona and the evidence was of massive death and a powerful force that jumbled those bones together,water. If you do not believe no proof is possible, if you do believe no proof is necessary.

From your site.

THE KAROO: THE GREATEST VERTEBRATE GRAVEYARD

The point being discussed by the creationists is the source of the estimated 800 billion vertebrate fossils contained in the Karoo deposits. Whence this astronomical number of mainly swampdwelling reptiles?

Composed mainly of sandstones and shales deposited in shallow water, the Karoo can be 20,000 feet thick. The fossil-rich beds stretch out for hundreds of miles.

Nowhere else on the planet is there such a massive, continuous, fossiliferous land deposit.
​

"Fossilised footprints are found on many Karoo farms, and on Gansfontein, near Fraserburg, there is an intriguing palaeosurfac

So are you claiming there were 800 billion Permian animals living in the area of the Karoo before the flood? If you actually study the Karoo you will find that the lower layers contain only Permian animals, then there is a fossil poor layer representing the Permian extinction and then some early Triassic fossils appear above the fossil poor area. So how is it that a global flood deposited 800 billion Permain animals in the one area with no Jurrasic or Cretaceous dinosaur fossils and no Eocene, Miocene, Pleistocene or Modern mammals? Eocene, Miocene and Pleistocene fossils are abundant in many places but somehow got left out of the 800 billion fossil boneyard as did all modern animals. Do you really think there were 800 billion Permian animals and no others living around the Karoo at the time of this supposed flood? Some of these were pretty good sized animals. Do you think that the ecology of the area could have sustained 800 billion of them? Was there even room for 800 billion of them?

Perhaps you would also like to explain how animals left footprints while 20,000 feet of sand was being dumped on them during a global flood. Explain how 20,000 feet of sand was brought to the area with no Jurrasic, Cretaceous, Eocene, Miocene or other non Permian fossils included.

Once again evidence has been presented by creationists claiming to support global flood deposition but that evidence actually falsifies it.

 

[AV1611VET]

Once again evidence has been presented by creationists claiming to support global flood deposition but that evidence actually falsifies it.

You guys have trouble with one Man walking on water in a sea, and you want a family of 8 surviving in a containment vessel during a global flood explained to your satisfaction???

I think not.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

 

[AV1611VET]

Is this better?
​

 

[Hespera]

Ooparts & Ancient High Technology--Evidence of Noah's Flood?

Perhaps this site will intrigue you , read very carefully the parts about Iraq. I have some evidence which I can't find online but its a canyon with bones from dinosaurs and humans and animals all jumbled together. I think it was in New Mexico or Arizona and the evidence was of massive death and a powerful force that jumbled those bones together,water. If you do not believe no proof is possible, if you do believe no proof is necessary.

i would believe something for which there was evidence. There IS NO place where human and dino bones are jumbled together.

There is no report of such a place in the Society of Vertebrate Paleontology
bulletin, or in any other publication except of course, the usual creo sites.
Fossil sites exist, but not one with such a mixture.

Now, I would take that as meaning one of two things.

A conspiracy of them scientists to hide evidence that supports the bible

There is no evidence that such has ever taken place. it would require cooperation from around the world. How likely is that?

or

The people (creationists) publishing such are liars. Plenty of examples of that are to be found.

the eager willingness of creos to accept anything that fits with their preconceived ideas with no thought, no investigation, no skepticism is striking in these regards.

And it does nothing for the value of their beliefs in other matters.

 

[sandwiches]

Is this better?
​

ROFL
That's great!

 

[Exiledoomsayer]

Let the cartoon wars begin! (Seriously though those where awesome)

Also out of interest its it alright to say that all christians are imbeciles? I mean we know they are but is it fine to say it aloud?