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Evolution?

sfs

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For example, all phenotype variation in the Modern Synthesis (MS) stems from gene change in individual creatures. Whereas phenotype accommodation can precede, rather than follow, genetic change in the EES. This cuts out random mutations as being the cause of all variation as the form change is not genetic in the first place.
The change in this case is not genetic in the first place, but it only becomes part of the evolutionary trajectory of the species when it does become genetic, i.e. when a random mutation provides genetic stability to a previously induced phenotype. As I said, it ultimately comes down to mutation and selection. Other processes can facilitate adaptation, or can channel adaptation in certain directions, but the adaptation still depends on mutation and selection.
Also, under niche construction creatures can change their environment rather than be changed to an environment through random mutations and natural selection. This eliminates the need for random mutations and natural selection as creatures are the ones dictating what happens. Creatures can control what happens to them rather than only being subject to adaptive evolution.
Sure. Humans do that to an enormous degree. But it's not evolution and doesn't lead to genetically different species, which is what we're trying to explain here.
Another difference is that rather than the inheritance of genes through random mutations in the MS under the EES inheritance of traits extends beyond genes which eliminate random mutations. This includes (transgenerational) epigenetic inheritance, physiological inheritance, ecological inheritance, social (behavioural) transmission and cultural inheritance. These acquired characteristics can play evolutionary roles by biasing phenotypic variants subject to selection, modifying environments and contributing to heritability. So selection is still involved but rather than having to sift through untold random mutated variations it is handed variations already integrated and directs evolution towards certain outcomes which dreduces selections role.
I'd say that statement seriously overestimates the importance of some of these factors -- no one has demonstrated that epigenetic inheritance has any substantial role in evolution, for example. Regardless, even with these processes, all adaptive evolution -- all of the adaptive functional differences between species -- still occurs because of mutation and selection. These processes affect how that happens, but they don't change the fundamentals.
Also, mutations can be non-random which implies that some mutations are part of a mechanism that living things were designed to have which allows them to alter their existing genetic material in order to adapt to environments. The environmental pressures they are under trigger targeted mutational changes in specific locations of the genome according to the particular environment pressures they are under. In other words, it allows creatures to gain the right phenotypic change for the situation they are in rather than through random mutations being blindly sorted through natural selection. If the phenotypic change is targeted and well suited then how can natural selection play much of a role when it has already been determined to be the best option available.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qTChu5vX1VI
But that pretty much doesn't happen. The one clear exception I'm aware of is the CRISPR mechanism in bacteria, in which the bacteria actually incorporate genetic material from invading viruses into their genomes for future defense against the viruses. This is a targeted mutation -- but not one that leads to long-term evolution. The other thing that is well established is an increase in mutation in the presence of stress, something that was initially mistaken for targeted mutations. These mutations are still random, however. Beyond that are only speculative ideas and cases with sketchy support (as with the arabidopsis paper in the video).
 
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Job 33:6

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" There is an agreed state in which humans are born healthy and fit. "

"Obviously, there are babies that are born with some problems some are permanent but others can be fixed "

"Yes all humans have some kind of slight disorder genetically when they are born. "

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Ok, so no, there is not an agreed state in which humans are born healthy and fit. At least not optimally fit in which a human is genetically perfect.
 
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Job 33:6

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But a mutation can come along and make them less fit living in the same environment.

A mutation can also make them more fit living in the same environment.
 
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Job 33:6

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Yes all humans have some kind of slight disorder genetically when they are born. But this just makes a case for the fact that mutations do cause a fitness cost

This just doesnt make any sense. This assumes that there was a time in which mankind was genetically perfect and optimally fit. Mutations can benefit organisms and can increase fitness, but without being utter perfection (which doesnt exist), mankind will always have disorders, regardless of if the mutations are beneficial or not.

Humans having slight disorders upon birth does not equate to the statement that mutations result in a trend toward loss of fitness.
 
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stevevw

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That's an implication of the paper. If the mutation rate were so high that individual proteins were accumulating deleterious mutations faster than they could be purged by selection, then yes, that species will go extinct. I know of no such species, though. Measured mutation rates are quite tolerable.
What about the 99% of other species in the past that have gone extinct through the accumulation of mutations. How can we tell whether there are no current species going down the same path? Don’t we lose 1,000’s of species every year and some of these are because of harmful mutations? When you say the measured mutation rate is tolerable, isn’t this really saying that mutations have to be tolerated and therefore mutations are slightly harmful.

As Michael Lynch in his paper states that all complex life suffers from higher deleterious mutations and extinction rates because they experience reduced recombination rates which diminish the power of natural selection.

Multicellular species experience reduced population sizes, reduced recombination rates, and increased deleterious mutation rates, all of which diminish the efficiency of selection (13). It may be no coincidence that such species also have substantially higher extinction rates than do unicellular taxa (47, 48).
The frailty of adaptive hypotheses for the origins of organismal complexity

Considering that most vertebrates have smaller populations, often separate into smaller populations to develop new species and had to have begun as smaller populations throughout the history of evolution it seems inevitable that many species have experienced the harmful effects of mutations and continue to do so. Perhaps it is that we just cannot see the harm at present just as natural selection cannot always see the slightly harmful mutations to eradicate them. As stated in the paper I posted earlier scientists are discovering harmful mutations that have been hidden in the genome.

Now that genetic sequencing and other technologies have made it easier to recognize mutations that occur in only a subset of cells, researchers are finding more and more harmful mutations hidden among unaffected cells.
Harmful mutations can fly under the radar

But that's something that isn't actually happening.
Then why do humans, for example, have so many diseases and disorders caused by mutations. As evolution is supposed to be a slow process we are not going to see the end results of deleterious mutations right away but rather the progression towards gradual fitness costs which seems to be what we are seeing with the increasing number of genetic disorders happening as time goes by. If this rate continues then the human genome is going to gradually become more and more dysfunctional.

Mutations aren't meant to be anything, as far as we can tell. They're inevitable errors. Most of them either do nothing or damage the organism, while some of them improve it. Those are simply facts.
Fair enough, but as you say most do nothing or damage the organism. Some say that even the mutations that do nothing are actually well tolerated slightly harmful mutations that appear to do nothing. It is these that can sit in the genome and gradually add up to a drag on fitness.

I know of only one class of mutations that are non-random (in the sense that evolutionary biology means), and I doubt those are mutations that you're thinking of.
As stated in the video I linked in the previous post some mutations are non-random and target specific sites in the DNA to make changes that allow creatures to adapt to their environments. This seems to relate to what I had posted earlier about developmental bias and facilitated variation where phenotypic change is facilitated through the environmental pressures on the cells and tissues of creatures. Complex biological systems can come about through regulatory genetic changes from the differential re-use of pre-existing developmental components.

Non-Random and Targeted Mutations
Species have an error correcting ability and are designed to be able to adapt to certain environmental stressors. It is not a random process, they are not accidentally stumbling into these serendipitous variations that are selected for. It’s the other way around, the stress of the environments is producing these variations in a non-random way.

Some work on developmental bias suggests that phenotypic variation can be channelled and directed towards functional types by the processes of development [27,28]. The rationale is that development relies on highly robust ‘core processes’, from microtubule formation and signal transduction pathways to organogenesis, which at the same time exhibit ‘exploratory behaviour’ [28], allowing them to stabilize and select certain states over others. Exploratory behaviour followed by somatic selection enables core processes to be responsive to changes in genetic and environmental input, while their robustness and conservation maintain their ability to generate functional (i.e. well integrated) outcomes in the face of perturbations. This phenomenon, known as facilitated variation [28,34], provides a mechanistic explanation for how small, genetic changes can sometimes elicit substantial, non-random, well-integrated and apparently adaptive innovations in the phenotype.
The extended evolutionary synthesis: its structure, assumptions and predictions

That's completely wrong. No recent research says that humans are accumulating slightly harmful mutations. Because our population size has soared in recent millennia, we are actually reducing the number of deleterious mutations that we carry.
Actually it is the fast-increasing population that is causing the increase in mutations and with this the increase in harmful mutations. The accumulation of mutations is more to do with the high rate of mutations in human and the speed in which they happen. This along with the lifestyle of modern humans and the improvements in technology to allow people to live longer is making it hard for natural selection to weed out these harmful mutations. Hence, we are seeing over 250 new genetic disorders happening every year and increasing.

The ironic thing is though if Darwinian evolution is the mechanism of Gods creation then the ability of humans to save other humans which by all measures would seem a Godly thing to do is what is causing the evolution of humans to fail and perhaps lead to humans becoming disease-ridden and eventually being threatened with extinction which would equate to causing Gods own creative process to fail. So the act of saving a person is the very act that is actually destroying Gods creation of humans.

That's wrong. As I suspected, it's from Sanford, who's a creationist who has some odd ideas about population genetics.
Sanford is also a plant geneticist and understands the topic well. All he is saying is that mutations are happening too often and too fast for natural selection to get rid of, so they are building up and humans are progressively becoming more laden with diseases. This is supported by a number of other papers which I have already posted. All he is saying is that our DNA must have more optimal in the past and is gradually degrading hense genetic entropy.

The deleterious mutations come and go, every generation. The beneficial mutations stick around (well, some of them anyway). This filtering process is highly effective.
I think the mutation level has been and still is a contentious issue and there is debate about what effects they are having and whether natural selection is sufficient enough to rid all mutations. It is not just a case of having this nice synchronized and finely balanced process where we get heaps of harmful mutations, but they are all overcome at the right time and place by natural selection and then a very few rare beneficial mutations step in to do their job.

The fact is harmful mutations are always entering the genome and cannot be weeded out before harm is done. They are not always spotted by selection regardless of population size. But even so many vertebrate populations are of small size and therefore can be affected. Regardless of what is said the proof is in the pudding in that we see more and more genetic harm as time goes by. Once again I will leave it up to Lynch who I quoted earlier in regards to complex life being more susceptible to the effects of harmful mutations. He describes the process of evolution as not just being natural selection but also 3 other non-adaptive forces which can overpower selection in smaller populations like vertebrates which includes all humans.

With regard to the above evolutionary forces, this means that mutations occur at random, independent of whether they help or harm, and recombination occurs at random, whether or not it produces helpful or harmful new combinations of genes.1 Similarly, genetic drift increases the likelihood that a potentially beneficial mutation will be lost before it becomes widespread in the population. This is particularly true for organisms with small effective population sizes, such as vertebrates. The net effect of genetic drift in such populations is “to encourage the fixation of mildly deleterious mutations and discourage the promotion of beneficial mutations,”, in the words of one evolutionary biologist.2 Only natural selection is adaptive, that is to say, working to ensure that beneficial changes are preserved in the population, and harmful changes are eliminated.

Thus, in organisms with small effective population size (e.g. all vertebrates, which includes us humans), the stochastic and non-adaptive forces of mutation, recombination, and drift will tend to drive evolution in non-adaptive directions.

The frailty of adaptive hypotheses for the origins of organismal complexity
 
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stevevw

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"If humans are collecting these mutations then they must have had fewer mutations in the past. "

Numerically, of course a species that has a mutation, by default, has had fewer mutations in the past. Just as when I type this message, I have typed fewer words in the past.

"Neanderthals were stronger and humans are less smart because we do not use our brains as we did in the past where we had to have original thought. "

Well, we didn't originate as cave people, we go back much further. Do you think fish were stronger than we are? Do you think fish were smarter?
I think you have to compare like with like. Are fish becoming less fitter in general. Are humans becoming weaker compared to thousands of years ago? Despite the relative differences in brain size, I think intelligence can be measured by original thought and perhaps ancient humans had to think more originally more often because this was the beginning of thought which actually ignited the development of the brain.

The same with strength. Humans use to be hunters and gatherers and have to work hard at surviving. Today people do not have to do much and become too reliant on technology. Thats why evolution is not just about biology but also about the psychology, culture and socialization of humans as this can deminish or increase evolvability. This is why the EES is so relevant and important in being able to have a more holistic view of how living things can change and adapt.
 
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stevevw

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Steve said " did not have any medical awareness and technology. Even 60 or 70 years ago people were dying young because of poor hygiene and a lack of medical technology."
KomatiiteBIF said
Yea sure. And a few million years ago we didn't even have the intellectual capacity to mass produce crops, nor were we even at the top of the food chain.
Yes humans have progressed a lot and this has allowed us to feed many. But it has also come with many problems and some say part of that is humans are actually influencing the course of evolution. But this is something that the EES has said all along that creatures can have a say in what evolution can and cannot do by niche construction. They can create a better or different environment rather than have to adapt to that particular fixed environment at that time. By humans increasing food production they are mitigating what the natural world may have brought about in causing populations to be kept at a reasonable level through competition for food.

We have increased in fitness as it pertains to the survival of our species. Even though we've accumulated more mutations, other mutations, such as those that have advanced our intellect, have allowed us to become more successful through time.
I have always wondered how a random mutation and a blind process of natural selection can create such complex and integrated systems such as our brains and nervous systems. It seems that many of its functions are inter-related and cannot be mutated singularly.

Unless you think that global domination and 60+ years average lifespan does not equate to success versus 20 year and less average lifespan and situations in which our species was historically near extinction and much fewer in number.
Success can be measured in many different ways.
 
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Job 33:6

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I think you have to compare like with like. Are fish becoming less fitter in general. Are humans becoming weaker compared to thousands of years ago? Despite the relative differences in brain size, I think intelligence can be measured by original thought and perhaps ancient humans had to think more originally more often because this was the beginning of thought which actually ignited the development of the brain.

The same with strength. Humans use to be hunters and gatherers and have to work hard at surviving. Today people do not have to do much and become too reliant on technology. Thats why evolution is not just about biology but also about the psychology, culture and socialization of humans as this can deminish or increase evolvability. This is why the EES is so relevant and important in being able to have a more holistic view of how living things can change and adapt.

A great white today, I would say is probably a better Hunter than say...

Cladoselache - Wikipedia

Cladoselsche or any other shark of the ordovician or silurian. It's probably even more fit to hunt todays prey than even something like megalodon which would likely have a hard time maneuvering for prey.
 
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Job 33:6

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Success can be measured in many different ways.

Much of your words sound more subjective and seem to be you pondering ideas rather than making clear arguments.
 
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stevevw

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A mutation can also make them more fit living in the same environment.
Is it fitter or just well adapted to that particular environment? It seems to be when the organism is subject to a new environment that puts pressure on it and this produces the change. But as mentioned earlier there is a question over what is producing the change. It seems that there is an inbuilt process through development that allows creatures to change and adapt to environments by activating development programs that switch on existing genetic information. So what may seem like a random beneficial mutation may be a natural process that living things are designed with. But even so what may seem to be a benefit may actually be some sort of defence mechanism that helps an organism adapt and the change is often a loss of function of some sort and not a gain in new genetic information.
 
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stevevw

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Much of your words sound more subjective and seem to be you pondering ideas rather than making clear arguments.
Not really, I just felt I didn't need to go into things much more as I had already stated that what may seem like a benefit of humans such as mass production of crops can also be a setback with increased populations which then threaten humankind in other ways such as creating an ever-increasing population to feed and all the problems that go along with this. So I felt I had already answered this and just needed to point that out.

For example, global domination in 60 years may appear a great triumph but there are also many problems that come with that triumph such as we are quickly using up the earth resources, climate change, globalisation, corporatization etc. As mentioned humans ability to save people and prolong their lives has also allowed people carrying many genetic disorders and diseases to survive and keep those genetic disorders from being purged out of the population. This would be counter productive to survival. So there are many ways to measure success. What may be a success to some is a failure to others.
 
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Job 33:6

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Is it fitter or just well adapted to that particular environment? It seems to be when the organism is subject to a new environment that puts pressure on it and this produces the change. But as mentioned earlier there is a question over what is producing the change. It seems that there is an inbuilt process through development that allows creatures to change and adapt to environments by activating development programs that switch on existing genetic information. So what may seem like a random beneficial mutation may be a natural process that living things are designed with. But even so what may seem to be a benefit may actually be some sort of defence mechanism that helps an organism adapt and the change is often a loss of function of some sort and not a gain in new genetic information.

More fit and well adapted, in the sense that their ability to survive in a particular environment is greater than that of their predecessor.

For example, a zebra of today would have a higher level of fitness in that it can run faster and jump higher and live longer in comparison to its predecessor. '

Youre suggesting that these changes as a product of mutation may be hurting the species, but in reality, their prolonged life and enhanced physical state is demonstrating just the opposite.
 
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stevevw

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"Don’t we lose 1,000’s of species every year and some of these are because of harmful mutations? "

Where do you get this idea from? It doesn't seem realistic.
It is a well known fact that we are losing around 200 species every day. That equates to over 10,000 a year. They say the rate of extinction is much faster than the natural rate but many of these species suffer small populations for one reason or another and are subject to the harmful effects of mutations. Besides it shiows that perhaps evolution is not the best way to measure how life develops and changes becuase it seems to be more about destruction than creation. Whether humans have contributed that should still be part of the natural progression as what humans are doing to them would be a natural progression of their own evolution. It just happens to be wiping out all other creatures which also seems counter productive to Gods creation.
 
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Job 33:6

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Not really, I just felt I didn't need to go into things much more as I had already stated that what may seem like a benefit of humans such as mass production of crops can also be a setback with increased populations which then threaten humankind in other ways such as creating an ever-increasing population to feed and all the problems that go along with this. So I felt I had already answered this and just needed to point that out.

This just seems like more random thoughts of yours. I'll just leave you with the response in regards to sharks and zebras.
 
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Job 33:6

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It is a well known fact that we are losing around 200 species every day. That equates to over 10,000 a year. They say the rate of extinction is much faster than the natural rate but many of these species suffer small populations for one reason or another and are subject to the harmful effects of mutations. Besides it shiows that perhaps evolution is not the best way to measure how life develops and changes becuase it seems to be more about destruction than creation. Whether humans have contributed that should still be part of the natural progression as what humans are doing to them would be a natural progression of their own evolution. It just happens to be wiping out all other creatures which also seems counter productive to Gods creation.

So you are switching from extinction as a result of deleterious mutations, in the sense that organisms are dying as a result of disabilities and decreased fitness, and youre switching gears and talking about organisms dying as a result of what is a predators increased fitness (which is humanity).

Mankind taking over the planet, living longer, and advancing intellectually are benefits to our own species, at the cost of others. Dont conflate extinction due to disabilities as a result of harmful mutations with extinction due to predation.
 
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Job 33:6

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Not really, I just felt I didn't need to go into things much more as I had already stated that what may seem like a benefit of humans such as mass production of crops can also be a setback with increased populations which then threaten humankind in other ways such as creating an ever-increasing population to feed and all the problems that go along with this. So I felt I had already answered this and just needed to point that out.

For example, global domination in 60 years may appear a great triumph but there are also many problems that come with that triumph such as we are quickly using up the earth resources, climate change, globalisation, corporatization etc. As mentioned humans ability to save people and prolong their lives has also allowed people carrying many genetic disorders and diseases to survive and keep those genetic disorders from being purged out of the population. This would be counter productive to survival. So there are many ways to measure success. What may be a success to some is a failure to others.

Earth really has what is in a practical sense, an infinite amount of resources. We simply have made poor decisions in managing those resources as a result of our own imperfections.

Renewable energy for example, is available to us. Solar energy in a practical sense, is infinite. Its use would theoretically eliminate things like running out of coal produced electricity and oil produced gasoline.

We simply have to make that decision. But because many of us, the wealthy of us, aren't directly under threat (i can just hangout on my couch and watch tv comfortably), we dont strive to change, so we accept the loss of others lives, while as societies we benefit. Unfortunately.

But ultimately, the loss of say...starving children in africa, does not equate to the idea that our increased intellect and use of fuel oil and agriculture, is detrimental to our fitness. We, the wealthy, are living longer than ever, and are healthy and fit enough to enjoy said long life. We do not actually lose anything as a result of our personal mutations, in the grand scheme of things. Other societies may, but we are in power and we do not, therefore, our fitness is not threatened.

This is an unfortunate reality about society, but it appears to be true. People care more about living to the age of 90 in their mansions with their giant brand new mercedes benz, than they do about children dying at the age of 5 in africa due to starvation. And unfortunately the 90 year olds in the mansions have more wealth and power.

But again, all this is really irrelevant. Mutations of the 90 year olds arent killing them off. Theyre living longer than ever and are healthier than ever as proven in their ability to live to such an old age with a relatively comfortable life.
 
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stevevw

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More fit and well adapted, in the sense that their ability to survive in a particular environment is greater than that of their predecessor.

For example, a zebra of today would have a higher level of fitness in that it can run faster and jump higher and live longer in comparison to its predecessor. '

You're suggesting that these changes as a product of mutation may be hurting the species, but in reality, their prolonged life and enhanced physical state is demonstrating just the opposite.
But who said these features were the result of a Neo-Darwinian process of random mutations. It may well be that the ability to run faster and jump higher is a natural ability already there. It is just that those Zebras that happen to be born with those qualities will survive. But then those qualities are only good for that situation and may not be good overall. The Zebras that run faster and jump high may be developing weak joints from them subjecting those joints to constant pounding. Evolution is blind and cannot know what is ahead and therefore what may be beneficial now is not in the long run or overall. That is why I question Neo-Darwinism because it would be like one small step forward and 10 big steps in all directions but never really moving forward to produce more developed, complex and fitter life as we see.

Plus this example is not how evolution happens in all situations and to view everything in adaptive terms or in terms of gene change is wrong. Many creatures don't have to adapt to the new environment because they just change the new environment to suit what they need. For example, a worm that is used to an aquatic environment will create a watery environment on land by changing the composition of the soil to make it more conducive to hold water. Humans who find the climate too cold don't have to grow hair like bears to keep them warm to adapt. This is the same for insects who build nests. This can go right down to the psychological and cultural level where different certain practices and coping mechanisms may help people function better and therefore be able to survive better.
 
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Job 33:6

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But who said these features were the result of a Neo-Darwinian process of random mutations. It may well be that the ability to run faster and jump higher is a natural ability already there. It is just that those Zebras that happen to be born with those qualities will survive. But then those qualities are only good for that situation and may not be good over all. The Zebras that run faster and jump high may be developing weak joints from them subjecting those joints to constant pounding.

Plus this example is not how evolution happens in all situations and to view everything in adaptive terms or in terms of gene change is wrong. Many creatures don't have to adapt to the new environment becuase they just change the new environment to suit what they need. For example a worm that is use to an aquatic environment will create a watery environment on land by changing the composition of the soil to make it more conducive to hold water. Humans who find the climate too cold dont have to grow hair like bears to keep them warm to adapt. This is the same for insects who build nests. This can go right down to the psychological and cultural level where different certain practcies and coping mechanisms may help people function better and therefore be abkle to survive better.

to say that the zebra species had the ability to run faster and to jump higher in the past, is like saying that a devonian fish had the dna for legs already embedded in it, before it even evolved to become a zebra. This seems strange to me because fish dont have the dna for legs, else they would have legs.

Do fish have the dna for legs?
 
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Job 33:6

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also, youre jumping between ideas. One idea being that fish had the dna for legs (or whatever youre getting at) and the other idea being that the increased fitness as a result of mutations might actually come at a cost of life (greater than the benefit to life), which is contradictory. If it were the case that bad joints decreased fitness, moreso than the zebras speed and agility increased fitness, then the zebra wouldnt exist because it would die as a result of bad joints.
 
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