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Evolution?

sfs

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I have stressed several times in this thread that macro evolution from one genus into another is impossible both according to the scriptures and scientifically.
You've claimed that. A claim is not an argument.
Do you have scripture which allows for plants or animals reproducing in any way outside of "according their kind" as we are told they do in Genesis?
In evolution, plants and animals always do reproduce after their kind. Unless you have some scientific definition of the Hebrew term that I'm unaware of.
Do you have any scientific evidence for it happening either in the natural world or with a situation like a million generations of fruit flies or bacteria being bombarded with radiation?
Heck, yes. The best evidence for the common ancestry of different species (including species in different genera) is genetic. For example, this describes one piece of genetic evidence that humans and chimpanzees share a common ancestor.

Okay, so according to you, Gregory of Nyssa was a liberal, compromising Christian. Gregory, one of the Fathers of the church, one of the definers of Christian orthodoxy, and (according to the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Lutheran, and Anglican churches) a saint to boot. Your view seems to be the odd one out here.
 
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Job 33:6

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I have constantly referred to the Biblical concept that genus reproduce after their own kind.

I have stressed several times in this thread that macro evolution from one genus into another is impossible both according to the scriptures and scientifically.

Do you have scripture which allows for plants or animals reproducing in any way outside of "according their kind" as we are told they do in Genesis?

Do you have any scientific evidence for it happening either in the natural world or with a situation like a million generations of fruit flies or bacteria being bombarded with radiation?

If so produce either one or both.

If you can't - then I will continue to maintain that scripture does not allow for macro evolution and that those who believe in it do so in spite of what the scriptures clearly teach.

Yes.

These aren't really technical arguments you're making.

You're just speaking your mind.

If you're trying to argue science with scientists, you have to do so on scientific grounds. Just speaking your mind usually won't be receieved well without some technical response.
 
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Marvin Knox

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You wrote that if the scriptures say a certain thing “they say that - plain and simple.” Then you deny the plain waning of the words of Jesus—this is my body, this is my blood. I fail to understand how you cannt see the inconsistency in your position.
The "consistency" comes from my considering the context of what the Lord said in both situations.

In the case of the creation of mankind I have considered the context. In the case of the institution of the taking of communion I have done the same.

The context for the creation of man yields a picture of a separate creation of man vs. the other animals. The Lord tells us over and over again that animals and plants were created to produce "after their own kind".

Specifically we are told that there is no suitable mate of the same "kind" through which Adam can reproduce. The creation of that suitable mate was clear said to be special and unique creation and not from the other animals linage.

In the case of the institution of communion we have the real once for all incarnate man Jesus handing bread and wine to the disciples with his physical hands and saying, as well as "this is my body" etc. that they were to do this in "remembrance of me".

In the case of the instructions we have concerning communion from Paul - the same person also tells us in detail the importance of believing in the once for all resurrection of Jesus Christ and about His being in Heaven until such time as He comes again in glory.

The one context demands a literal "interpretation" of the words in the appropriate passage and the other demands a figurative interpretation.

My positions in both cases and the method I use arriving at my theology in both cases are systematically consistent.

There is no contradiction at all.

I believe you can readily see how they are not.

That is unless you have an "axe to grind" in the case of the elements in particular - which may well be the case.

I say that because the proper interpretation of Jesus' words at the last supper are so obviously figurative that Ray Charles could see them.

As I see it - the words of the Holy Spirit concerning the creation of mankind are equally obvious as to their being properly interpreted in a literal way.

Thus my contention that those of the evolutionary mindset have compromised what the scriptures clearly teach in order to accommodate the opinion they bought to the interpretation of the passages in question..
 
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Marvin Knox

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Okay, so according to you, Gregory of Nyssa was a liberal, compromising Christian. Gregory, one of the Fathers of the church, one of the definers of Christian orthodoxy, and (according to the Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Lutheran, and Anglican churches) a saint to boot. Your view seems to be the odd one out here.
A saint can be a liberal and a liberal can be a saint.

While good fruit can not be born by a bad tree - good fruit can come from a flawed tree.

You can be the liberal that you are in this particular case concerning evolution and still be a saint. I'm not qualified to comment on your salvation (sainthood).

If you would care to tell me a bit more about your soteriological stances - I might take a shot at it though.:)

As with two species having common DNA indicating the truth of the theory of evolution for you - there are also certain indicators of one's salvational status which I look at to determine the likelihood of sainthood.

Gregory's beliefs concerning the literal vs. the allegorical nature of certain O.T. judgments do not meet that criteria for me nor have I ever said that they do.
 
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sfs

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A saint can be a liberal and a liberal can be a saint.
A fourth century saint could not be a liberal in any modern sense; that category did not exist.
Gregory's beliefs concerning the literal vs. the allegorical nature of certain O.T. judgments do not meet that criteria for me nor have I ever said that they do.
So what? No one cares about your personal criteria for interpreting the Bible. Just get over the idea that you alone possess the authority to decide what legitimate interpretations of scripture are.
 
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Marvin Knox

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A fourth century saint could not be a liberal in any modern sense; that category did not exist.
Liberal is an English word. Of course they wouldn't use that word.

There are, however, several words we could use which come directly from the scriptures themselves that would explain what a person who didn't subscribe to what the scriptures said was or is.

The words of Jesus come to mind most readily.

"“O foolish ones, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken!"
Luke 24:25

It would be pretty hard for me to hurt Gregory's feelings at this point. But when it comes to people I am talking to here, like you, it seemed more charitable to use the generic "liberal" handle. It's a bit less offensive than if I called you and other people on this thread "fools". In addition - most of us are quite familiar with the fact that people who don''t believe or who tinker with the obvious meaning of scripture are referred to as "liberals" in theological circles.
You insinuated that my calling Gregory a liberal was tantamount to questioning his status a saint (i.e. questioning his salvation). I merely cleared that up by saying that I do not consider his liberal stance on the literal judgment by God on certain people in the O.T. as having anything to do with his salvation.

There are ways and questions which can be used to shed light light on the salvation of people. But such as this belief of Gregory isn't one of them.
No one cares about your personal criteria for interpreting the Bible. Just get over the idea that you alone possess the authority to decide what legitimate interpretations of scripture are.
It's isn't my personal criteria for interpreting the Bible that I am espousing.

Reading scripture in context is a common and indeed necessary adjunct to determining the meaning of a passage. The context of the Genesis description of God's creation of man leaves no doubt as to the plain meaning being the most likely and indeed the only legitimate interpretation.

In fact - far from this method of interpretation being something merely personal with me - the old adage repeated so often in the first year of most seminaries remains the gold standard for the interpretation of scripture passages.

"When the plain sense makes perfect sense - seek no other sense."

Evolutionists such as yourself have taken their personal beliefs and super imposed them on the very clear cut statements by God concerning the creation of animals and man.

In that way you have warped what the scriptures are obviously meant to convey to us in order to line them up with the beliefs of a fallen world (and, in case of way too many scientists, a God rejecting world).

That's liberalism in a Bible believing Christian sense and it isn't good theology.

It certainly isn't a wise thing to do considering the centrality in the thinking of the Lord of believing all that the prophets have spoken.
 
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Archivist

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The "consistency" comes from my considering the context of what the Lord said in both situations.

In the case of the creation of mankind I have considered the context. In the case of the institution of the taking of communion I have done the same.

The context for the creation of man yields a picture of a separate creation of man vs. the other animals. The Lord tells us over and over again that animals and plants were created to produce "after their own kind".

Specifically we are told that there is no suitable mate of the same "kind" through which Adam can reproduce. The creation of that suitable mate was clear said to be special and unique creation and not from the other animals linage.

In the case of the institution of communion we have the real once for all incarnate man Jesus handing bread and wine to the disciples with his physical hands and saying, as well as "this is my body" etc. that they were to do this in "remembrance of me".

In the case of the instructions we have concerning communion from Paul - the same person also tells us in detail the importance of believing in the once for all resurrection of Jesus Christ and about His being in Heaven until such time as He comes again in glory.

The one context demands a literal "interpretation" of the words in the appropriate passage and the other demands a figurative interpretation.

My positions in both cases and the method I use arriving at my theology in both cases are systematically consistent.

There is no contradiction at all.

I believe you can readily see how they are not.

That is unless you have an "axe to grind" in the case of the elements in particular - which may well be the case.

I say that because the proper interpretation of Jesus' words at the last supper are so obviously figurative that Ray Charles could see them.

As I see it - the words of the Holy Spirit concerning the creation of mankind are equally obvious as to their being properly interpreted in a literal way.

Thus my contention that those of the evolutionary mindset have compromised what the scriptures clearly teach in order to accommodate the opinion they bought to the interpretation of the passages in question..

Sure there is a contriduction. You are picking and choosing—this has to be taken literally, this does not—then telling those who disagree with your interpretation that they have axes to grind and that they are liberals (which you have since said means fools).

There really is no sense in continuing this converstion since all you want to do is insist that you are right and that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong.

Once again, you are entitled to your interpretation of scripture just as I am entitled to my interpretation.
 
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johnnywong

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Those still thinking about evolution need to update themselves on science because evolution is now (officially/scientifically) dead. Look up Stephen Meyer and his research on code containing blueprints in our DNA. With recent discoveries of code containing blueprints in our DNA, we now know that evolution is/was impossible. Code can mutate or degenerate, but it cannot spontaneously create, upgrade, and/or insert itself. A growing number of top former evolutionists are now saying aliens did it, which, as we Christians know, is a half truth.

But no one should have ever bought into evolution anyway...in over a century and a half, zero evidence has been found. Every original text book 'proof' has been thrown out and disproven. None have withstood the test of time. A fly mutating is not evidence for upwards evolution. A bone of an extinct creature is not evidence of upwards evolution because you cant prove that creature had kids, that it wasn't just a rare mutation...and why would you think animals back then could do something we haven't observed throughout 6000 years of recorded history...give birth to anything other than its own kind. Even evolutionists admitted that the fossil record showed a sudden explosion of life.

If you're waiting on the atheist hijacked mainstream educational or scientific communities to talk about this evolution destroying evidence, don't hold your breath. The fact that they've been firing and blacklisting anyone who disagrees with them should tell you they don't care about the truth...

Yes , totally agree with you ,evolution is anti-mathematics , DNA alone can disprove it .

While many want to secure their jobs and dare not to speak up the truth.

All major text books for children still quote most scientists believe in chemical evolution (see World Book 2019 Life chapter ) , this continue to poison the youths and implant this false belief into the minds of youths and this is the reason behind the high suicide rate of youths.

I am attacking this in all fronts of internet .

Let all Christians be motivated to fight the battle for the Truth.
 
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Job 33:6

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While many want to secure their jobs and dare not to speak up the truth.

.

I'm a geologist with published research in paleontology. I openly support the scientific theory of evolution.

Am I trying to "secure my job" while not daring to speak the truth about my findings?

No of course not. This is some silly conspiracy theory.
 
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JackRT

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All major text books for children still quote most scientists believe in chemical evolution (see World Book 2019 Life chapter),

I am not sure about your use of the term "chemical evolution", but there are very compelling reasons why the vast majority of scientists support evolution. This includes the majority of scientists who are Christian, myself included.

this continue to poison the youths and implant this false belief into the minds of youths and this is the reason behind the high suicide rate of youths.

This is quite an outrageous claim. Do you have any research to support it?
 
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Thee Librarian

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johnnywong

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I am not sure about your use of the term "chemical evolution", but there are very compelling reasons why the vast majority of scientists support evolution. This includes the majority of scientists who are Christian, myself included.



This is quite an outrageous claim. Do you have any research to support it?

The formation of DNA from the theory of chemical evolutionis statistically impossible
 
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johnnywong

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I'm a geologist with published research in paleontology. I openly support the scientific theory of evolution.

Am I trying to "secure my job" while not daring to speak the truth about my findings?

No of course not. This is some silly conspiracy theory.

I highly appreciate your work in geology and palaeontology. what I am talking about is chemical evolution ,if there is no chemical evolution , there will be no biological evolution. DNA complexity disproves chemical evolution statistically.
 
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Job 33:6

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I highly appreciate your work in geology and palaeontology. what I am talking about is chemical evolution ,if there is no chemical evolution , there will be no biological evolution. DNA complexity disproves chemical evolution statistically.

What do you mean by chemical evolution?
 
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johnnywong

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I am not sure about your use of the term "chemical evolution", but there are very compelling reasons why the vast majority of scientists support evolution. This includes the majority of scientists who are Christian, myself included.



This is quite an outrageous claim. Do you have any research to support it?
Many scientists, including so called Christians are wrong.If you believe in evolution ,you are not saved .​
 
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Tayla

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Those still thinking about evolution need to update themselves on science because evolution is now (officially/scientifically) dead. Look up Stephen Meyer and his research on code containing blueprints in our DNA.
Only Christians proposing intelligent design think evolution is dead, and these are the minority of scientists. Evolution is still alive and well in the scientific community.
 
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JackRT

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Many scientists, including so called Christians are wrong.If you believe in evolution ,you are not saved .​

According to the rules of this forum you are permitted to dispute the validity of the ToE but you are not permitted to question anyone's status as a Christian.
 
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johnnywong

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Only Christians proposing intelligent design think evolution is dead, and these are the minority of scientists. Evolution is still alive and well in the scientific community.
Evolution is still alive because many scientists have poor mathematical training
 
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