Evolution

[Arikay]

Lucas:
A question,
Do you think there is a giant wide spread conspiracy, or are scientists just very stupid?

 

[larry lunchpail]

While claiming to be wise, they became fools...

<------ how ridiculously, mind bogglingly arrogant of you to not, for one second, think that maybe, just maybe that passage might be refering to you. which it is.

what is this "would you rather believe" stuff? that indicates that you choose to believe what you want to, not what is true and real. and you want others to do the same? thats no honest way to conduct oneself.

i hope youre faith isnt too shaken up when one day, God willing, you discover who's really been decieving you. hint: its who you least suspect.

 

[DJ_Ghost]

Wow!


h2whoa, if your believe in God and evolution, that's an interesting religion you live.

Yes it is interesting, he shares it with the majority of Earths Christians.

However, what type of evolution are you talking about? There is macro and micro evolution. Macro is Darwin's idea that God isn't the answer to creation.

I thought you told us you had read Darwin? Furthermore, the macro/micro evolution distinction is nothing more than creationist tap-dancing to try and hand wave away the fact that evolution has been observed. There is only evolution, the change of allele frequency over time. tell me what mechanism do you think would stop “micro” evolution causing an accumulation of changes that eventually lead to speciation given sufficient generations. For the silly creationist notion that macro and micro evolution are different to hold water, something has to stop adaptive changes from accumulating.

Further, the universe isn't constant. but then I guess you know better than any scientist right?

I have asked this of other creationists and never had an answer, I will see if you can answer it. Why do you assume that people on forums are not scientists without knowing anything about them first? DO you really, honestly believe that scientists are a rare and reclusive bread that never use the internet? If so I assure you that we are not, we use the net just like everyone else you know.

You would rather believe this man than believe in the bible that has been around far longer and promises far more.

So? The religious texts of the Zoroastrians are older than the bible and promise just as much, should we all convert to Zoroastrianism and abandon Christianity then?

Evolutionists think themselves so wise and knowledgable, taking everything away from God.

Evolution no more denies Gods existence than an electric band saw denies the hesitance of a carpenter that uses it as his tool. I fyou understood the ToE half as well as you say you do, you would know that. You may still not believe evolution was the tool God used to create biodiversity but you would stop perpetuating the lie that evolution = atheism.

Ghost

 

[Jimmy The Hand]

This reeks of Hovindism


[paraphrase]I've read all kinds of books. Maybe you should read some and then we could talk[/paraphrase]

[paraphrase]Look, you need to understand what you are talking about before we can have an intelligent conversation[/paraphrase]


The tactics are remarkably similar.

 

[Beastt]

Notto,
Evolution DOES state that everything came from nothing. Evolution states that from some early organism, everything was created. Well, I implore you to answer where did that organism came from? Nothing? It just made itself? Please do not try and tell me I do not know evolution. I've read more on the evolutionary theory than most libraries can carry on the subject. what is your education on the subject, Notto? Do tell.

No matter how often we see this corrected, for every thread on evolution verses creationism there are about half a dozen Creaties that pop in to present evolution as making claims it in no way makes. The name of the belief which states that everything came from nothing is called, "Creationism". It is the belief that a non-material entity, itself devoid of a creator, simply made everything out of nothing. Evolution is the belief that life became diversified through genetic mutation and natural selection. Sometimes people like to link this to abiogenesis which deals with the origin of life. Just because creationism includes the origin of life does not mean that evolution must also include such. If you don't know what evolution is about, then perhaps you've made a choice of beliefs based on ignorance.

You go further on to say that evolution does not say that its is becoming more organized. ARE YOU FOR REAL? This was what Darwin stated in "The Origin of the Speicies". Have you read it? I have. I know what he is saying. Do not change the evolutionary theory to something its not just so you can defend it.

You don't understand the laws of thermodynamics. Before things can go from a less orderly state to a more orderly state, an outside energy source is necessary. For the Earth that source is the Sun so there is no violation of thermodynamics in progressing to a more orderly state.

"Can you show us where evolution states "that everything is building up and becoming more organized"?"
Is this a real question? You need me to point out where it says this? If this is an honest question, then you REALLY need to go read up on this topic before you debate. I can't debate with you if you don't know the premise of evolution.
The premise of evolution is that it is continually progressing, becoming more organized and building up. Have you never heard of the "survival of the fittest"?

It is clear from your statement that evolution proclaims that everything sprang from nothing that you have not the faintest idea of what the Theory of Evolution is actually about. You've been introduced to the church version of evolution which is designed to look even more ridiculous than creationism in order to defend creationism. It has nothing to do with the scientific Theory of Evolution. Evolution is not about moving from less orderly to more orderly. It's about adapting to the challenges brought forth by the environment. Those species and traits within species which adapt most successfully will continue while those less successful will fail.

Everytime you enter a thread spouting that evolution claims that everything came from nothing, you'll look foolish.

 

[Dennis Moore]

Unsourced copy and paste alert.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/feedback/negative_13may2002.asp

Good call, Notto.

Lucas, all that book-reading and that nice library next to you, and you had to plagiarize from a website to make your point? Tsk, tsk. Yahweh doesn't like a thief or a liar.

Without belaboring the point, nor repeating what others have already said: you do not understand evolution. You do not know what the laws of thermodynamics are. And despite your claims of education, you're plagiarizing websites to make points. All that adds up to a run-of-the-mill YEC with a pocket full of PRATTs. The question is, are you willing to actually learn? Or are you just here to repeat the same old arguments for the thousandth time?

 

[warispeace]

I don't understand how all of the things we see around us could come from one same organism that has mutated. and where exactly did this organism come from? Creation makes total sense...evolution is a theory based on lies.

Uh-oh. I don't understand how a carburator or a fuel injector works, so I guess that means my car is based on lies. Can anyone give me a ride to work?

 

[mikeynov]

Wow!


Lots of responses! This looks fun!

there's a lot to respond to so I'll just jump in and go.

The open systems argument does not help evolution. Raw energy cannot generate the specified complex information in living things. The heat of the sun only speeds the disorganiztion process.
In any ordered system, open or closed, there exists a tendency for that system to decay to a state of disorder, which tendency can only be suspended or reversed by an external source of ordering energy directed by an informational program and transformed through an ingestion-storage-converter mechanism into the specific work required to build up the complex structure of that system.
If either the information program or the converter mechanism is not available to that 'open' system, it will not increase in order, no matter how much external energy surrounds it. The system will decay in accordance with the Second Law of Thermodynamics."

I suggest that thermodynamic arguments are excellent when done properly, and the ‘open systems’ canard is anticipated. Otherwise, I suggest concentrating on information content. The information in even the simplest organism would take about a thousand pages to write out. Human beings have 500 times as much information as this. It is a flight of fantasy to think that undirected processes could generate this huge amount of information, just as it would be to think that my cat walking on my keyboard could write a book.
So, putting that to bed, the 2nd Law of thermodynamics holds true. You can try and distort it as much as you would like and say that it does not work for an open system, but it does. Saying a cat is actually a fish does not make it so. Learn the facts then argue them.
Dennis Moore, Evolution IS a belief system. You can't prove its true, therefore your faith enables you to hold on to it.
And the literature I have I will type them out soon enough. Maybe you'll read some of them.

h2whoa, if your believe in God and evolution, that's an interesting religion you live. However, what type of evolution are you talking about? There is macro and micro evolution. Macro is Darwin's idea that God isn't the answer to creation. Micro evolution is the smaller type that we do see here on earth and it is fact. Darwin showed that when he researched finches and how some of their beaks grew larger to accommodate for their conditions. However, they still remained finches.
Further, the universe isn't constant. but then I guess you know better than any scientist right? agreed, matter cannot be created or destroyed - as the law states. being destroyed and decay are two different things. our sun isnt being destroyed, but its running out of usable energy. dont believe me? why do stars burn out?

Evolution is a theory created by a man approx. 150 years ago that many have taken as a fact. You would rather believe this man than believe in the bible that has been around far longer and promises far more. Darwin promises you what exactly? Truth? The only thing it promises you is division between God and you.

The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them. Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse; for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened. While claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes. Romans 1:18-23

While claiming to be wise, they became fools...
Evolutionists think themselves so wise and knowledgable, taking everything away from God. I pray you turn from your hopeless ways and put hope where it truely belongs: with Jesus Christ. Because, only He can promise you life after this one...

God bless,
Lucas

You don't understand physics or evolution, and this demonstration would cause you to fail an introductory college course in either.

But keep lying and talking about how many libraries of apparent nonsense you've read on the two.

Dares:

Definte 'complex specified information' and 'information,' and propose tests to quantify either.

 

[Praxiteles]

Wow.

An I-bomb went off in here and I missed it. Caused a big mess, though.

 

[HRE]

I believe the bluff has been adequately called, ni?

I especially love the bit about: "I have an immense amount of knowledge on the subject and a deep understanding, but I still have to copy-paste entirely off a website..."

 

[Praxiteles]

Ooh, ooh! Mr Kotteeer!

My favourite bit was where Lucas accused Notto of not knowing what evolution was about. Hee hee.

I was looking around for a white rabbit to run past, muttering about punctuality.

 

[Lynx2174]

i dont think the original poster is coming back....ever.

way to go, we scared off another one lol

 

[Dennis Moore]

Well, he was a 16 year old Newbie packing nothing but PRATTs. His time in this forrum was inevitably limited.

Perhaps he'll be more comfortable in the Christian Only forums.

 

[Cassandra]

Is it just me, or is it mostly teenagers who have been coming in here to tell us of the error of our ways and of the great lie that is evolution recently?

You know, I was honestly hoping this wouldn't be another post and run.

 

[Sphere]

I had to do an essay on this last year and, let me tell you, i got pretty heated about it. I was doing mine on Creation and another guy in my class was doing Evolution...he was making up all of this stuff about how everything began from one organism and all that. I don't understand how all of the things we see around us could come from one same organism that has mutated. and where exactly did this organism come from? Creation makes total sense...evolution is a theory based on lies.

Another post and run.

Thanks for the reminder of the utter ignorance some people present.

 

[h2whoa]

Wow!

The open systems argument does not help evolution.

Only in the sense that the thermodynamic argument is so mind-bogglingly irrelevant to the whole debate. But if you insist on using it incorrectly then expect to be corrected.

Raw energy cannot generate the specified complex information in living things. The heat of the sun only speeds the disorganiztion process.

Gibberish. The transfer of energy from the sun provides the initial energy for the cascade of biochemical energy transfers from the photosynthetic reactions up to the metabolomic reactions of organisms which eat organisms that ate the organisms the ate the photsynthesisers. The heat of the sun only speeds up the "disorganiztion"(sic) process? You sir, blabber about that which you know little.

In any ordered system, open or closed, there exists a tendency for that system to decay to a state of disorder, which tendency can only be suspended or reversed by an external source of ordering energy directed by an informational program and transformed through an ingestion-storage-converter mechanism into the specific work required to build up the complex structure of that system.

Absolute rubbish. In any system, there is a tendency for energy to flow from the most energetic to the least energetic system. The sun is an external source of energy on the Earth system, hence any life at all exists. Your hideous malformation of thermodynamics, isn't even a fantasy. It's a nightmare. If it was correct then evolution could not have occured for the very simple fact that life could not exist.

"Ordering energy"? "directed by an informationsal program"? blah bah blah. This is absolute fantasy. You have thermodynamic-schizophrenia. This is entirely made up.

You try to pull off a facade of knowledge and yet the sheer ignorance displayed is mind-numbing. I actually feel a little more dumb from the sheer stupidity infecting me from this post.

If either the information program or the converter mechanism is not available to that 'open' system, it will not increase in order,

To use my signature line, "This isn't right... this isn't even wrong".

This is pure fantasy.

I suggest that thermodynamic arguments are excellent when done properly

Indeed the are as they pose precisely no problem for evolution

So, putting that to bed, the 2nd Law of thermodynamics holds true.

Indeed it does, not matter how much you try and change to suit your needs. You know, this actually angers me. You are knowingly lying. You are spreading the disease of ignorance. You have turned yourself into an intellectual leper.

Learn the facts then argue them.

Quite.

Dennis Moore, Evolution IS a belief system.

Blahblahblah.

No it is not. Evolution is a scientific theory which, all available evidence supports unless you choose to pervert truth and knowingly lie.

And the literature I have I will type them out soon enough. Maybe you'll read some of them.

Given your tour of the scientific U-bend, I wouldn't bother mate.

h2whoa, if your believe in God and evolution, that's an interesting religion you live.

Indeed it is. It's a religion where I get to acknowledge Jesus Christ as the son of God and to boot I don't worship at the altar of ignorance and deceit! Bonus.

Even better, I get to share this "interesting religion" with a multitude of Christians worldwide who are not under the influence of fundamentalist deception.

However, what type of evolution are you talking about?

What type? EVOLUTION. The biological kind. Hang on, I know what's coming next...

There is macro and micro evolution.

Not there isn't. Not outside the fallacy of Creationist definitions.

Macro is Darwin's idea that God isn't the answer to creation. Micro evolution is the smaller type that we do see here on earth and it is fact.

It serves a purpose so I shall use this again.

"Oh I wouldn't use a Strawman if I only had a brain"

Further, the universe isn't constant.

Absolutely not. Clearly you don't understand what was stated. The amount of energy in the universe is constant. These are two very different concepts.

but then I guess you know better than any scientist

How dare you? Firstly I did not suggest this for a second. Secondly, you make this accusation based on your misunderstanding of a rather simple concept. EDIT: Thirdly, I actually am a geneticist, so I do have some idea about what I'm talking about. Knowledge: try it sometime...

agreed, matter cannot be created or destroyed

You have absolutely no idea do you? Matter can be destroyed and it can be created. You lack any understanding... at all.

being destroyed and decay are two different things. our sun isnt being destroyed, but its running out of usable energy.

For goodness sake. The sun is a miniscule part of the universe. The sun is running out of energy. But the level of energy IN THE UNIVERSE HAS NOT ALTERED. Try and understand what you are saying. Your post is like concentrated wrongness. It's depressing.

Evolution is a theory created by a man approx. 150 years ago that many have taken as a fact.

Wrong. It has been subjected to rigorous testing that have consistently supported it, thus allowing us to have a strong degree of confidence in it.

You would rather believe this man than believe in the bible that has been around far longer and promises far more. Darwin promises you what exactly?

What are you babbling about now. Evolution DOES NOT EQUAL ATHEISM. As you have been told. Besides, there are older religions than Christianity, so by your argument should we now believe in them? No, because I believe in Christ. And evolution does not change that. Only an ignoramous would suggest that it does.

Darwin does not claim to promise anything. It is not a religion, that's why. Hey what does the Theory of Gravity promise you? Other than a fall?

The only thing it promises you is division between God and you.

Incorrect. But I'll tell what does attempt to bring division between me, Christ and God. That thing is arrogant ignorami claiming that idiocy is the only way you can have a relationship with God.

Evolutionists think themselves so wise and knowledgable

Whereas creationists such as yourself bathe in the slurry of ignorance.

taking everything away from God.

Incorrect.

I pray you turn from your hopeless ways

To be honest, I pray you shut up.

and put hope where it truely belongs: with Jesus Christ.

Thanks but as a Christian, I do this already.

h2

 

[JohnR7]

i dont think the original poster is coming back....ever.

way to go, we scared off another one lol

With only three posts he could have only been here once. He may not even be able to find his way back here again.

 

[DJ_Ghost]

How dare you? Firstly I did not suggest this for a second. Secondly, you make this accusation based on your misunderstanding of a rather simple concept.

And thirdly, it clearly states under your name you are a geneticist, yet he repeatedly claims to know more about the subject than you, thus being guilty of the very hubris he implies you are guilty of.

This is exactly why I am amazed how many creationists come steaming in, blithely proclaiming what “scientists say “ and assuming no one here is one. If I had a pound for every time I’ve seen one make a fool of themselves like that I’d buy a bigger house.

Honestly, do they think scientists are some reclusive ivory tower breed they will never encounter in real life I wonder?

Ghost

 

[h2whoa]

And thirdly, it clearly states under your name you are a geneticist, yet he repeatedly claims to know more about the subject than you, thus being guilty of the very hubris he implies you are guilty of.

Good point. I meant to put that in as a third point.

h2

 

[Beastt]

With only three posts he could have only been here once. He may not even be able to find his way back here again.

Natural selection at work.