Evolution - Speciation finally observed in the wild?

[Aman777]

Just out of curiosity, what would you say counts as having the ability to reason?

The ability to reason is the ability to judge and understand the consequences of one's behavior. It's WHY animals are not charged with crimes since they do not have the intellectual prowess to understand why they are being tried. Another expression of one's ability to reason is the ability to create.

It placed him in the flesh? Sorry, I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Are you suggesting that Adam and Eve didn't have physical bodies until that point?

No, but they had bodies of fire in the likeness of Jesus. Here is His true form:

Eze 1:27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of His loins even upward, and from the appearance of His loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness (Shekinah glory) round about.

We regain our bodies like His at the Rapture. 1Jo 3:2

Sorry, I don't see how any of those passages indicate anyone being surrounded by light in such a way that their nakedness was covered.

It's WHY the Lord asked Adam: Gen 3:11 ¶ And He said, Who told thee that thou wast naked?

Adam was ashamed of his nakedness showing his guilt.

I don't see how your interpretation that they were created by two essentially different beings can be justified.

It's the same with all of mankind. We were first born physically by Lord God/Jesus. Genesis 2:4-7 Then we sin or miss the mark of being perfect. Then, we have a free choice to believe what God tells us or to believe the world view which is apart from God the Trinity. In order to re-establish our life with Him, we MUST be born again Spiritually by God the Trinity. Genesis 1:27 Genesis 5:1-2 and John 14:16

So then why not keep God's truth from everyone to make sure that everyone is an innocent?

It would mean imprisoning them for their entire lives and send them to Judgment with all that hate for you, inside them. Sorry, doesn't work. Amen?

 

[Justatruthseeker]

They said that the "definition isn't perfect", because species isn't some kind of supernatural barrier. This is completely consistent with the evidence for species diverging into multiple species.

I hear double-talk and avoidance and a cop-out.....

it is a barrier. You have species, then sub-species, both capable of interbreeding. Species are not capable of such.

https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/evo_41

"For example, these happy face spiders look different, but since they can interbreed, they are considered the same species: Theridion grallator."

So you say one thing, the next says another and on and on and on until species is meaningless as any definition at all. So why are we even discussing species or speciation if anybody can claim it is anything they want??????

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Like I said, it's not a perfect definition.

Sometimes there are two very closely related species that can interbreed and produce a fertile offspring, but this is EXTREMELY rare, and only happens when the species are EXTREMELY closely related. Such as your example of two finches. Try it with a finch and a sparrow, and you'll have no luck.

If the two animals are from even slightly more distantly related species, the offspring won't be fertile (tigons and ligers, and also mules, for example).

If the two animals are even further apart (such as snakes and lizards) then no offspring will be produced at all.

In any case, the process of speciation is not a binary thing. There's no point along the line when it stops being Species A and immediately becomes Species B. It's a gradual change in which, over many generations, the population becomes less and less like Species A and more and more like Species B.

I see a cop out. Why just a couple posts ago you were willing for it to be an adequate definition..... Double-talk and avoidance.

So what you are really saying is it has no meaning at all, and so talk of species and speciation is noting but a joke.....

 

[Jimmy D]

I hear double-talk and avoidance and a cop-out.....

it is a barrier. You have species, then sub-species, both capable of interbreeding. Species are not capable of such.

https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolibrary/article/0_0_0/evo_41

"For example, these happy face spiders look different, but since they can interbreed, they are considered the same species: Theridion grallator."

So you say one thing, the next says another and on and on and on until species is meaningless as any definition at all. So why are we even discussing species or speciation if anybody can claim it is anything they want??????

Yes we know, I believe you’ve mentioned it before.

You don’t like the current system of taxonomic classification......

So what do you propose instead?

 

[Kylie]

The ability to reason is the ability to judge and understand the consequences of one's behavior. It's WHY animals are not charged with crimes since they do not have the intellectual prowess to understand why they are being tried. Another expression of one's ability to reason is the ability to create.

So all those examples of animals using tools don't count? Or do they not understand the consequences of using tools? If that is true, why do they use them?

No, but they had bodies of fire in the likeness of Jesus. Here is His true form:

Eze 1:27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of His loins even upward, and from the appearance of His loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness (Shekinah glory) round about.

We regain our bodies like His at the Rapture. 1Jo 3:2

So until they ate from the tree, Adam and Eve had bodies of fire?

It's WHY the Lord asked Adam: Gen 3:11 ¶ And He said, Who told thee that thou wast naked?

Adam was ashamed of his nakedness showing his guilt.

So eating the fruit caused this glow to disappear?

It's the same with all of mankind. We were first born physically by Lord God/Jesus. Genesis 2:4-7 [/quote]

That passage is not talking about humans in any way. It is saying that there were no plants until God watered the ground...

Then we sin or miss the mark of being perfect.

Typical sales pitch. Convince the audience that they have a problem (even an imaginary one) so you can sell them the cure (for 10% of their income, and they don't get the cure until they're dead and can't complain about it not being real).

Then, we have a free choice to believe what God tells us or to believe the world view which is apart from God the Trinity.

As discussed in other posts, this only applies if we have heard of God. If we haven't, then we get a free pass, because only an absolute jerk would punish us for not believing in something we didn't know about.

So God could have accomplished his goal much better if he'd simply kept to himself (which seems to be his modus operandi these days).

In order to re-establish our life with Him, we MUST be born again Spiritually by God the Trinity. Genesis 1:27 Genesis 5:1-2 and John 14:16

There's that sales pitch again. You too can have eternal salvation for the low low cost of 10% of your earnings until you die!

It would mean imprisoning them for their entire lives and send them to Judgment with all that hate for you, inside them. Sorry, doesn't work. Amen?

Come on, we sorted this out in post 594. You don't hear about God, then you don't get sent to hell, because it's not fair to punish people for not believing in something they couldn't possibly have known.

 

[Kylie]

I see a cop out. Why just a couple posts ago you were willing for it to be an adequate definition..... Double-talk and avoidance.

So what you are really saying is it has no meaning at all, and so talk of species and speciation is noting but a joke.....

Wow.

You are incapable of understanding this, and yet you claim it is my fault.

I ALWAYS said that it wasn't a perfect definition, didn't I?

So please don't lie about what I said.

 

[the iconoclast]

I ALWAYS said that it wasn't a perfect definition, didn't I?

Hey hey kylie

How r u?

 

[DogmaHunter]

So what do you propose instead?

Whatever the bible says?
Perhaps then bats will become birds.

 

[Aman777]

So all those examples of animals using tools don't count? Or do they not understand the consequences of using tools? If that is true, why do they use them?

Fishing for termites is not the same for Apes as it is for exterminators, who make bunches of money for doing the same. Trying to teach the same Ape to post is useless since he doesn't have the superior intelligence of God, which Humans (descendants of Adam) do. Genesis 3:22

So until they ate from the tree, Adam and Eve had bodies of fire?

No. They had bodies which put forth a glory or brightness, like Lord God/Jesus, their Creator. We lost our glory when we lost our perfect bodies which exuded light.

So eating the fruit caused this glow to disappear?

No. It was the disobedience of God's Commandment, which is the only way one can sin. God knows that the only way to be immortal is to be perfect even as He is perfect. Are you sinlessly perfect?

That passage is not talking about humans in any way. It is saying that there were no plants until God watered the ground...

Typical unbeliever's view. I will show you the verses if you would like but here is what they are saying.

In the Day, that the Lord God made the Earth, which was the 3rd Day (Gen 1:10) and the other HeavenS/universes, BEFORE plants, herbs (Gen 1:12) and rain, Lord God/Jesus formed Adam from the dust of the ground and gave him life. (Gen 2:4-7) AFTER Adam was made, Jesus put trees in the Garden. (Gen 2:8-9) This all happened on the 3rd Day when Adam was made.

As discussed in other posts, this only applies if we have heard of God. If we haven't, then we get a free pass, because only an absolute jerk would punish us for not believing in something we didn't know about.

Good point. That's WHY we leave the Judgement to Him and not you.

There's that sales pitch again. You too can have eternal salvation for the low low cost of 10% of your earnings until you die!

That's religion. Jesus doesn't charge.

Come on, we sorted this out in post 594. You don't hear about God, then you don't get sent to hell, because it's not fair to punish people for not believing in something they couldn't possibly have known.

As I have always posted. I leave that Judgment to God since He knows how to read the sub-conscious mind which records every idle word I've ever uttered, which I must account for at Judgment Mat 12:36 according to Jesus. Whew, I'm sure glad that Jesus saves me from that public judgment. How bout you?

 

[Aman777]

Whatever the bible says?
Perhaps then bats will become birds.

Perhaps God's classification system identifies them both as "flying" beings.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Perhaps God's classification system identifies them both as "flying" beings.

Sounds like how a 4-year old would classify creatures.

 

[Aman777]

Sounds like how a 4-year old would classify creatures.

Then go find you one and have him classify the creatures which today's advanced Science can't get right. Sometimes, we can be too educated to understand simplicity.

 

[Kylie]

Hey hey kylie

How r u?

Amused by your user title. Care to show me where my "defeat" took place?

 

[Kylie]

Fishing for termites is not the same for Apes as it is for exterminators, who make bunches of money for doing the same. Trying to teach the same Ape to post is useless since he doesn't have the superior intelligence of God, which Humans (descendants of Adam) do. Genesis 3:22

Irrelevant. Tool use in animals is still an example of how a non-Human can think about the consequences of things.

No. They had bodies which put forth a glory or brightness, like Lord God/Jesus, their Creator. We lost our glory when we lost our perfect bodies which exuded light.

Nice story, but the only support you have for this doesn't actually say that their bodies actually produced light at all.

No. It was the disobedience of God's Commandment, which is the only way one can sin. God knows that the only way to be immortal is to be perfect even as He is perfect. Are you sinlessly perfect?

Two thoughts. First, it seems that God set the standard way to high (and knew it was too high, if you subscribe to the position that God knows the future). Second, this is another example of trying to create an imaginary problem in order to sell an imaginary cure.

Typical unbeliever's view. I will show you the verses if you would like but here is what they are saying.

In the Day, that the Lord God made the Earth, which was the 3rd Day (Gen 1:10) and the other HeavenS/universes, BEFORE plants, herbs (Gen 1:12) and rain, Lord God/Jesus formed Adam from the dust of the ground and gave him life. (Gen 2:4-7) AFTER Adam was made, Jesus put trees in the Garden. (Gen 2:8-9) This all happened on the 3rd Day when Adam was made.

Oh come on, the two creation accounts give different orders for the events and you know it. No amount of leaps of logic will escape that fact.

Good point. That's WHY we leave the Judgement to Him and not you.

I'm not doing any judging. I'm asking if that's how God judges.

That's religion. Jesus doesn't charge.

Except in Matthew 23:23, Jesus says that tithing is good.

To paraphrase Captain Kirk, what does God need with a paycheque?

As I have always posted. I leave that Judgment to God since He knows how to read the sub-conscious mind which records every idle word I've ever uttered, which I must account for at Judgment Mat 12:36 according to Jesus. Whew, I'm sure glad that Jesus saves me from that public judgment. How bout you?

Are you for real?

That's like me saying I'm glad I never spoke out against Voldemort, and then asking if you are worried what Voldy will do to you once he gets you.

Do you understand that I don't view Jesus or God as actual existing entities at all?

 

[the iconoclast]

Amused by your user title. Care to show me where my "defeat" took place?

Hey hey you
I thought you might like that my treasure. Kidney challenge and pool challenge.

Do you understand that I don't view Jesus or God as actual existing entities at all

I am intrigued by this response though. Why do you not view God or Jesus as actual existing entities?

Cheers. Lets have some fun my dear

 

[DogmaHunter]

Then go find you one and have him classify the creatures which today's advanced Science can't get right

Which can't science get right?

. Sometimes, we can be too educated to understand simplicity.

Yes, yes.... "education - bad!".

 

[Kylie]

Hey hey you
I thought you might like that my treasure. Kidney challenge and pool challenge.

Disagreeing with me is not the same as defeating me.

I am intrigued by this response though. Why do you not view God or Jesus as actual existing entities?

Do you think Thor and Odin are actual existing entities?

Cheers. Lets have some fun my dear

Don't call me that.

 

[the iconoclast]

Disagreeing with me is not the same as defeating me.

Hey hey kylie.

No but being unable to defend your position does.

Do you think Thor and Odin are actual existing entities?

Jer 16:20
Do people make their own gods? Yes, but they are not gods!"

Exodus 20:2
Thou shalt have no other gods before Me



Is your line of reasoning "thor and odin do not exist therefore God does not exist"?

Why do you or do not believe thor and odin are existing entities?

Cheers kylie.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Why do you or do not believe thor and odin are existing entities?

Can't speak for kylie, but for me, I don't believe thor and oding exist for the exact same reasons that I don't believe your god exists: the total and complete lack of any verifiable evidence that these entities exist.

When I have no valid reason to believe something, I don't believe it.

 

[Aman777]

Irrelevant. Tool use in animals is still an example of how a non-Human can think about the consequences of things.

Compared to Human intelligence, it's the difference between a Commodore 64 and a modern computer. ONLY Humans have the superior intelligence which was inherited from the common ancestor of ALL Humans, namely Adam.

Nice story, but the only support you have for this doesn't actually say that their bodies actually produced light at all.

Then who told them they were naked? Gen 3:11 What had changed? Was it the loss of the glory or brightness of Lord God, in whose Image they were made? Of course it was. Remember that Lord God/Jesus is brighter than the noonday Sun. Act 22:11

Two thoughts. First, it seems that God set the standard way to high (and knew it was too high, if you subscribe to the position that God knows the future). Second, this is another example of trying to create an imaginary problem in order to sell an imaginary cure.

1. You got it, since there is but ONE way to Heaven and that is to believe in the death for your sins, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ according to the Scriptures.
2. It's certainly not imaginary. Your destiny for Eternity depends on your faith in the above Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Oh come on, the two creation accounts give different orders for the events and you know it. No amount of leaps of logic will escape that fact.

Here's the key. Genesis Chapter one is the entire HISTORY of the 6 Days/Ages of the creation of the THIRD Heaven. This includes events in the future AFTER Jesus returns to this Earth at the end of the present 6th Day. Genesis 1:28-31 is prophecy. Most of the rest of the Bible, from Genesis 2:4-Revelation 22, is filled with the DETAILS of the outline given in Genesis chapter one. No one can tell us WHEN those events have happened in the past, since they are in the future.

I'm not doing any judging. I'm asking if that's how God judges.

Unless God judges perfectly, He is not God. His works are always perfect when they are finished or brought to perfection.

Except in Matthew 23:23, Jesus says that tithing is good.

He was speaking to the religionists of His day. New Testament teaching shows that you should not let one hand know what the other hand is giving.

Do you understand that I don't view Jesus or God as actual existing entities at all?

You will when you stand before Jesus since He is brighter than the Sun. I've been so sinful I couldn't stand that much scrutiny and neither can you. I'm sure happy that Jesus forgave me while knowing what a rotten apple I've been my whole life. Jesus is the only physical Image of the invisible Spirit of Love. God is Love. He loves you.