Evolution - Speciation finally observed in the wild?

[tyke]

Yes, there are creationists in the UK, but no Religious Right.

For which we are eternally grateful!!

 

[Jimmy D]

Yeah, I re-read my original post and it is misleading.

To clarify, the specific Chinook dog is the result of an offspring between a Husky and a mixed ancestry dog. And then the Chinook dog was subsequently bred with Huskies (among other breeds) to produce what is essentially the "Chinook" breed of dogs.

The point is again that you don't just take any old Husky and Mastiff and cross them and get the Chinook breed. It's a result of a specific original pairing and the offspring of that pairing which was a specific individual dog named Chinook.

More or less.

A undetermined mixed breed dog and a husky produced the dog called ‘chinook’ which was then bred with a German shepherd and a Belgian shepherd and their offsprings became the breed known as chinooks.

It doesn’t really affect JTRs point that new breeds can be produced through selective breeding, but then again I am sure everyone was aware of that fact anyway. The problem is that JTS insists that this is the main mechanism of variation in populations, which is patently nonsense.

 

[pshun2404]

Why did you bring up ERVs in a thread you started about the coccyx? To try to hide your ignorance of anatomy?

What is predictable is that creationists will eagerly pontificate on issues that they have no business pontificating on, then whine and cry foul when called out on their errors.

And hey - it is not my fault that you cannot interpret cladograms despite thinking you can.

Everything I posted was 100% accurate (even MY opinions were 100% MY opinion). When I have factually been demonstrated to be incorrect I (unlike you programmed types) I admit it HERE and on any forum. I realize you are incapable of doing that at this point in your life but that's okay what does intellectual integrity have to do with anything? (rhetorical)

 

[pshun2404]

That’s because you would have complained had they removed Halloween or Thanksgiving to hold it.

DH doesn't have a clue outside of internet based criticisms. He does not realize that Saturnalia (dec 17) and the winter solstice (dec 20) had nothing to do with the selection of Dec 25 (admittedly simply a date chosen and never part of what Jesus OR the Apostles taught) it was from choosing the wrong of two "course of Abijah" datings.

but this was just another lamo atheist attempt to pull the thread off topic (because they are unable to defeat the argument of your equally sound and well researched opinion OR provide what they insisted is there but cannot show to actually be there)

 

[pshun2404]

Their own logic is above them.

It seems everyone agrees cats won’t produce dogs, but will just produce more cats. Yet then contradict themselves and claim something, we don’t know what as it’s missing, produced apes and man. Apes will produce more apes of variation, as humans will produce more humans of variation, as cats will produce more cats of variation, as amphibians will produce more amphibians of variation, as fish will produce more fish of variation.

Fish have no more been observed to produce amphibians, then amphibians have been observed to produce reptiles. Then they claim the fossil record has ample evidence to support their claim until asked for this common ancestor. Then suddenly what had ample evidence is incomplete and barely has enough to talk about.

They’ll show you fish fossils, show you amphibian fossils and say see, there’s proof something evolved into amphibians. Yet when asked to provide evidence that this something exists, why now it’s too sparse and incomplete.

They don’t accept their own logic. Cats don’t become dogs or anything, they will just produce more cats. Lungfish didn’t become amphibians, reptiles or mammals, they just produce more lungfish.

And though what you have said here is 100% correct and has been demonstrated here (and on dozens of other forums) it is like a reasoning cog is stuck (typical mostly with of victims of cults and sufferers of Stockholm) and they automatically go into a thinking loop that eventually brings them back to insisting again on the originally undemonstrated claim. Others have "faith" in their hypothesis so will not (as opposed to cannot) admit to anything that shows the emperor has no clothes.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Why should creationists have any more influence over the public school curriculum than any other religious group?

Exactly, why should the religion of evolution have any more influence then any of the others? I’m good with teaching everything and letting people make up their own minds, which evolutionists seem unwilling to do.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Yes, but they lack the coordinated political agenda and the regional devotion to the Lost Cause which unifies and motivates US creationists. Yes, there are creationists in the UK, but no Religious Right.

Oh it’s there.

I’m neither right or left. I disagree with many claims people make of the Bible. I just object to evolutionary claims of one species evolving from another, when there is no evidence of this at all.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

DH doesn't have a clue outside of internet based criticisms. He does not realize that Saturnalia (dec 17) and the winter solstice (dec 20) had nothing to do with the selection of Dec 25 (admittedly simply a date chosen and never part of what Jesus OR the Apostles taught) it was from choosing the wrong of two "course of Abijah" datings.

but this was just another lamo atheist attempt to pull the thread off topic (because they are unable to defeat the argument of your equally sound and well researched opinion OR provide what they insisted is there but cannot show to actually be there)

Nor do most even realize Jesus was born in October. Since he was 33 1/2 years old at the time of his death, which occurred in April, the sheep were in the fields, which in November they start bringing them down from the pasturing areas.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

More or less.

A undetermined mixed breed dog and a husky produced the dog called ‘chinook’ which was then bred with a German shepherd and a Belgian shepherd and their offsprings became the breed known as chinooks.

It doesn’t really affect JTRs point that new breeds can be produced through selective breeding, but then again I am sure everyone was aware of that fact anyway. The problem is that JTS insists that this is the main mechanism of variation in populations, which is patently nonsense.

And yet through actual studies of real populations versus fantasies of the mind, this is the exact conclusion the Grants came to.

“Introgressive hybridization is effective in increasing genetic variation because it simultaneously affects numerous genetic loci. The total effect on continuously varying traits can be up to two or three orders of magnitude greater than mutation (Grant & Grant 1994).”

So in the wild, under actual natural conditions, the Grants found interbreeding to be 2 to 3 magnitudes greater than mutation could ever be, because it affects simultaneously numerous genetic loci, while a mutation, if it manages to do anything, affects one, and has an even greater chance of affecting it negatively than positively.

 

[xianghua]

A human designer, by definition, yes.

Because we know that humans make robots.

so a robot that can evolve naturally isnt a robot by definition?

 

[xianghua]

Yes.

thanks. now, do you agree that an object that is identical to a robot is a robot?

 

[pitabread]

Exactly, why should the religion of evolution have any more influence then any of the others?

There is no "religion of evolution". If you're talking about the science of evolution, it's one of the cornerstones of modern biology and hence why it's taught. It's not going away.

 

[tyke]

do you agree that an object that is identical to a robot is a robot?

I'm sorry but your fantasies about robots, cars, bikes etc evolving are asinine and are going nowhere. I don't even know what point you are trying to make anymore.

If you do not accept evolution theory - fine. But please find some arguments against it that actually make sense and don't lead everyone down a rabbit hole.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

And though what you have said here is 100% correct and has been demonstrated here (and on dozens of other forums) it is like a reasoning cog is stuck (typical mostly with of victims of cults and sufferers of Stockholm) and they automatically go into a thinking loop that eventually brings them back to insisting again on the originally undemonstrated claim. Others have "faith" in their hypothesis so will not (as opposed to cannot) admit to anything that shows the emperor has no clothes.

Oh I am quite aware they engage in cognitive dissonance.

The difference between us is that I admit my belief in God is religion. And that science simply backs my belief. They on the other hand put faith in things not observed and is contrary to what is observed, and refuse to accept its religion.

Their beliefs actually require more faith. All they see is fish creating more fish, cats creating more cats, and in the fossil record every distinct type always remaining the same for that type. Then propose some non-exsistant common ancestor to bridge the gap between these distinct types, even if no evidence of this common ancestor that supposedly bridges this gap can be found for any of them.

I could understand if they had a half dozen of them, then sure, we could say it’s likely the others have just not been found. But we have zero, zilch, nada, none. Plenty of examples after this claimed split, and plenty before it, for every type. Just not the crucial part that is required.

Darwin I respected, he allowed for a falsification of his theory, to which all conditions have been met. But it is no longer a scientific theory capable of falsification.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

There is no "religion of evolution". If you're talking about the science of evolution, it's one of the cornerstones of modern biology and hence why it's taught. It's not going away.

Neither is creation, despite how many epicycles you add to keep the ToE from falsification.

And it’s a theory, not science. At least learn the distinction between the two. Like Ptolomy’s epicycles were a theory. Like stars form from massive clouds was a theory. Like the solar wind veering sideways at the heliosphere was a theory.

A theory that has since degraded into a religion after the conditions of falsification was met.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

If you do not accept evolution theory - fine. But please find some arguments against it that actually make sense and don't lead everyone down a rabbit hole.

You won’t accept the evidence right in front of your eyes.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

DH doesn't have a clue outside of internet based criticisms. He does not realize that Saturnalia (dec 17) and the winter solstice (dec 20) had nothing to do with the selection of Dec 25 (admittedly simply a date chosen and never part of what Jesus OR the Apostles taught) it was from choosing the wrong of two "course of Abijah" datings.

but this was just another lamo atheist attempt to pull the thread off topic (because they are unable to defeat the argument of your equally sound and well researched opinion OR provide what they insisted is there but cannot show to actually be there)

Deflection an personal attacks is all they have, that’s why they continually engage in both.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Depends, what you mean by evolved?

What publishing biologists mean by it.

You see, I accept dogs came from wolves through interbreeding

"interbreeding"?
You mean just wolves breeding with other wolves, right?
And that eventually producing a lineage of dog?

Not sure what you mean by "interbreeding" here.
I mean, it's just wolves.... with other wolves. Wouldn't that be just "breeding"?

What's with the "inter" part?

, but your use of the word evolution and how you think of it is what colors your beliefs.

I use the word, like publishing biologists use the word.

My beliefs don't dictate to me how reality is like.
Instead, I allow reality to shape my beliefs.

 

[DogmaHunter]

That’s because you would have complained had they removed Halloween or Thanksgiving to hold it.

Huh?

I'm from belgium. We don't celebrate halloween or thanksgiving.

 

[DogmaHunter]

DH doesn't have a clue outside of internet based criticisms. He does not realize that Saturnalia (dec 17) and the winter solstice (dec 20) had nothing to do with the selection of Dec 25 (admittedly simply a date chosen and never part of what Jesus OR the Apostles taught) it was from choosing the wrong of two "course of Abijah" datings.

Actually, the pagan winter solstice festivities in the north started on dec 21. The shortest day happens on dec 22. 3 days later, the festivities climaxed when the days turn longer again.

but this was just another lamo atheist attempt to pull the thread off topic

Actually, it was a point made in reply to another post. But I don't see you complaining about THAT post. Funny that. While the guy I responded to, is kind of the king of derailments.

(because they are unable to defeat the argument of your equally sound and well researched opinion OR provide what they insisted is there but cannot show to actually be there)

lol