Evolution Primer

[dewaddict84]

Humans have exsisted[sic] because in the year 1000, but over 1009 years How come we have not evolved into anything else??

Grammar, please. Answer: 1,000 years isn't that much on the evolutionary scale. We're pretty sure that humans were humans by 50,000 years ago. And even before that, we were homo erectus, which looks more like a human then an ape. As for altering forms, humans today are rather taller then in history, but that's probably due to a better diet.

But where is the 100% proof that you guys are right and GOD & Christians are Wrong??

Evolution does not have to be at odds with religion. It's a false dichotomy. And I don't believe there's 100% proof for anything, but that's me. Also, the sphynx. It's a mutated breed of hairless cat, and evolution in action (and UGLY!).

What would us CHRISTIANS Lose if we died??

This is Pascel's wager. And you're right, you lose nothing. But remember that you can believe in god and evolution at the same time.

@Hikersong, Thanks, but I did laugh at that one guy. That was hardly humble, but it was hilarious. It's important to remember that it's hardly worth arguing with the true believers, but I think it's worth my time to have a public conversation with them so others can observe and decide for themselves.

 

[SuicidalRevolver]

This is Pascel's wager. And you're right, you lose nothing. But remember that you can believe in god and evolution at the same time.

I believe that about sums it up... Heck, you can believe that God spawned the first life on Earth or something, albeit in a sense of bacterias...

 

[awitch]

Why do evolutionists get so offensive, or should I say people who BELIEVE WHAT THEY READ, get so Offensive when a Christian who knows His stuffs Disproves all your theories? Because Once he Disproves one thing, you all go straight to another then another, then another, until it eventually runs out, until someone says the same thing but with different words..And this site does not say Evolution Debate Forum, Why do " people who believe in evolution " come to a Christian Forum and tell people about Evolution, because true christians (note word: TRUE) know that evolution is false. Evolution from Animals, Apes, Homo-Whatever, is stupid..Let me ask you this, Humans have exsisted because in the year 1000, but over 1009 years How come we have not evolved into anything else?? Not even The Slightest bit of form?? Just Wondering.

Why do some Christians get so POed when years of observation of the natural world, repeatable experimentation, and analysis, make conclusions supported by evidence that contradict their Bible? Why do people even believe in Jesus? That idea that people where poofed into existence is stupid. How come there is no empirical evidence for god? Not even the slightest bit? Just wondering.

 

[SuicidalRevolver]

Awitch, fighting fire with fire here would only give them an advantage.

 

[awitch]

Awitch, fighting fire with fire here would only give them an advantage.

Just holding up a mirror.

 

[SuicidalRevolver]

Technically speaking, what is perfectly fine for them is a hate-crime for us. There exists no equality here... Unfortunately.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

And lo, WingsOfEagles07 was so struck by the power of reason and logic, that he didst flee, ne'er to return.

 

[MorkandMindy]

I simplified the figures to avoid the 'geometric progression' issue, and gave a result of 123 generations if the growth rate was 20% per generation.


But there is nothing inconceivable about a doubling per generation especially if the limits to growth haven't been reached.


I don't think there was birth control in the post deluge era nor was it an industrialised consumer society where people tried to keep up with the Jones, on the contrary a large families was considered a blessing.


About the closest I can think of to that situation at present would be somewhere in Africa. The overall population of Africa was 221 Million in 1950 and 973 Million in 2008 according to wikipedia.


That isn't all that far short of doubling each generation despite drought, famine, disease, AIDS and wars.



(and yes, the use of the word 'inconceivable' was intended to be ironic)

Maybe you can direct me to the source of your statistics? So I can see the unsimplified version?



Depends on population you are starting with. The smaller the population, the easier it is.

I googled: wiki world population

and used the first result and the numbers I used are in the first table in the row called 'Africa'.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population

I can think of no reason to dispute those figures; even if they are out by a bit the ability of the human population to increase in a geometric manner is going to be hard to dispute.

 

[MorkandMindy]

...

Evolution does not have to be at odds with religion. It's a false dichotomy.

...

How is that possible?

Genesis 1 says God created man. So how can man also evolve from earlier hominina?

 

[Eudaimonist]

How is that possible?

Genesis 1 says God created man. So how can man also evolve from earlier hominina?

The simple answer is that Genesis is correct that God created man, but explains the creation of man using a fable.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Arthra]

I haven't been involved in this discussion as yet.. but decided to post a few notes.

There is a kind of general progression about the days mentioned in Genesis which imp[lies life began as vegetation..later it mentions swarms of living creatures.. sea creatures and flying ones.. Later the earth has living creatures and finally man.

So the general progression of life over time doesn't contradict the evolutionary model.

Also the days mentioned in Genesis need not be twenty four hour days but epochs or periods of unspecified time, thus the vast epochs of time required for life to evolve or change doesn't contradict the evolutionary model.

In the Baha'i Faith evolution is mentioned and accepted within species..that it is similar to the foetus changing within the mother's womb and that man has appeared in different forms in development and will continue to change.

The reason for the conflict is that there has been a general distance between religion and science and resistance to the findings of science because it conflicted with religious dogmas..At one time the church wedded itself to the Ptolemaic model of the universe and had to retreat from that position and so on.

Science and religion though need not be in conflict.

- Art

 

[Eudaimonist]

I am not not going to argue about evolution with you guys.

That's probably wise, since you don't know enough about evolution to enter into a debate.

I know that it is wrong

I know that it is right. Where does that leave us?

and When you said people accept Evolution meaning christians do, Did you not notice i said " TRUE " ??

Perhaps they are true Christians as well?

My church does not accept evolution

That's nice.

Not actually Dicovering something yourself, because if you did you wouldn't spend worthless hours and endless posts on a Christian Forum on the Internet everyday.

I spend quite a bit of time doing all sorts of things aside from posting here, and I don't post here much anymore. None of that time posting here was wasted, however. I had reasons for posting other than debate.

You all are not open to other beliefs because you are so brought into Evolution and you all are SO SURE that you guys are right..

And you seem equally sure -- perhaps more so -- that you are right.

But where is the 100% proof that you guys are right and GOD & Christians are Wrong??

Study science and find out! Study biology, geology, etc.

And you know What? If you all are right, What would us CHRISTIANS Lose if we died??

You will have lost the joy of learning about humanity and the universe, and substituted a fable for this instead. You will have lost a mind that has spread its wings and taken flight. You will have given up that which is most essential to human life -- reason.

We would lose nothing because you all were right, we came from nothing so there is nothing after life,

I believe in life before death. You will have lost something sacred before you die.

What is the point in knowing that we came from Bacteria or soem animal years ago if nothing is nothing when we die?

Let's see... evolution theory is so useful in all the sciences, it's difficult to list everything. One good example in understanding our evolutionary origins is advances in medicine.

I personally have no difficulty in seeing the value of longer lives through medicine, despite the fact that we all end up dead eventually. Life is precious, and perhaps all the more so because it is limited. Every moment of ours in existence is something sacred, and it is a blessing that medicine can extend our lives so that we can experience this wonderful universe a little longer.

That is Foolish, but What if Us CHRISTIANS are right?? CREATION is Right?? What will you guys lose?? You guys will lose everything

No, it's exactly the opposite. I will retain my integrity and lose nothing. No values can be gained where integrity is lost. You are the one asking me to lose something sacred.

and I gurantee you the moment your Eyes are opened up in hell you will become a CREATIONIST IN THE BLINK OF AN EYE!

I don't see why, since such a God might still have used evolution as a tool for creating species. In any case, I don't see what precisely would be proved by the existence of hell except for the existence of hell.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[MorkandMindy]

I haven't been involved in this discussion as yet.. but decided to post a few notes.

There is a kind of general progression about the days mentioned in Genesis which imp[lies life began as vegetation..later it mentions swarms of living creatures.. sea creatures and flying ones.. Later the earth has living creatures and finally man.

So the general progression of life over time doesn't contradict the evolutionary model.

Also the days mentioned in Genesis need not be twenty four hour days but epochs or periods of unspecified time, thus the vast epochs of time required for life to evolve or change doesn't contradict the evolutionary model.

In the Baha'i Faith evolution is mentioned and accepted within species..that it is similar to the foetus changing within the mother's womb and that man has appeared in different forms in development and will continue to change.

The reason for the conflict is that there has been a general distance between religion and science and resistance to the findings of science because it conflicted with religious dogmas..At one time the church wedded itself to the Ptolemaic model of the universe and had to retreat from that position and so on.

Science and religion though need not be in conflict.

- Art

If the scriptural account is of a general progression from vegetation through to mammals and humans, then you could say that means God was guiding or had foreknowledge of the end result of evolution.

Why then also claim evolution only works within a species? That contradicts the claim that God used evolution to create all existing life.

 

[Arthra]

If the scriptural account is of a general progression from vegetation through to mammals and humans, then you could say that means God was guiding or had foreknowledge of the end result of evolution.

Why then also claim evolution only works within a species? That contradicts the claim that God used evolution to create all existing life.

Thanks for your reply..

I'm not sure it really contradicts it ..

It's not really like it's an article of faith for us though either.. that is, we don't require people to accept this view.

What Abdul-Baha taught was that evolution is within the species.. Now a "human" could appear fish like for instance and have maybe gill like structures or a tail.. The fish like creature would be man in potential while the regular fish wouldn't be..


If you look at some reptiles at certain stages in their evolution they were almost like mammals in a rhinosaurus style.. armored plating and a large horn..of course the horn on the Rhino was from fiber keratin while the dino "Rhino" was more what.. a large cartilage deposit?..

TRICERATOPS[wash my mouth] DINOSAUR HORN TOROSAURUS BONE CERATOPSIAN CERATOPIAN TOOTH BONES

So parallel evolution seems possible even though the species vary.

We're all learning!

- Art

 

[LightSeaker]

If the scriptural account is of a general progression from vegetation through to mammals and humans, then you could say that means God was guiding or had foreknowledge of the end result of evolution.

I don't believe there will ever be an "end result of evolution".

.

 

[MorkandMindy]

If life forms reproduce and only vary (evolve) within the species then:

All present species must have been in existence since the beginning

or

a supernatural creator steps in every now and then to start each new species

are there any other possibilities?

 

[Arthra]

For us humans anyway it seems they're still looking for that missing link.. It's there theoretically but still out there some where.. Also they keep finding evidence that man is very ancient ..and more ancient than previously supposed ..so I'm still open to the possibilities.. anyway.

See:

Scientist: Human Origin Impossible to Pinpoint | LiveScience

Ancient 'Peking Man' Way Older Than Thought | LiveScience

- Art

 

[MorkandMindy]

...

What Abdul-Baha taught was that evolution is within the species..

Either:

One species can develop into another

or

Species have been created at intervals since the beginning of the World

or

All species were present from the beginning of the World

Which do you think is true?

 

[dewaddict84]

evolution is... accepted within species.

So you have issue with speciation, steps 11 and 12. How do you reconcile observations of speciation? Remember that a species is defined as any group being able to interbreed and produce fertile offspring. So horses and donkeys are no longer the same species even though they can still mate and produce sterile mules (for the vast majority of the time, possible exceptions have been documented). Furthermore, speciation with fruit flys is a common occurance in genetic labs. And while this is the definition, it's probably not quite what you're looking for if "a "human" could appear fish like". I think I understand what you're trying to say, but please use a word other then "species".

I don't believe there will ever be an "end result of evolution".

True. Unless you consider the dodo to be the end result of it's evolutionary path. That's kind of a depressing way to look at it though. I think that with sufficient outbreeding, that a species can remain mostly similar for long periods of time. Just look at crocodiles and octopus's.


Anyway, I've discovered that there is a specific section of this forum for such discussions.
CF > Society > Society > Physical & Life Sciences > Creation & Evolution
Or CrEvo for short.
That is the proper place for this primer, and I'll be reposting it there, eventually. I'm a little disappointed that no one actually brought up one of the specific points from the first post, and instead went off on endless tangents. A few had some excellent questions at least.

 

[Arthra]

Well it's always interesting to contemplate what is a "beginning".. Maybe there was no beginning as such but creation is continous.. The origin of life could be extraterrestrial. Genesis says "In the beginning.." but maybe that meant in the beginning of this particular universe or field or maybe in the sense of most beginnings..

- Art