Evolution Primer

[awitch]

If you double the population at each generation you get 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, that's times a thousand every ten generations, so it is about a million after twenty and about a billion in thirty and Earth's human population right now is about 6,760,000,000 (wikipedia), which is just short of the 8 Billion you would have at generation 33.

That is a geometric progression.

The only problem with that is that the human population growth doesn't double at each generation. Population growth is not a constant. It completely ignores the limited age ranges between puberty and menopause when women can reproduce, the infant mortality rates, death rates, prosperity and health of a population, and near extinctions of some societies due to natural disasters and disease, etc.

Also from wiki:
"Globally, the growth rate of the human population has been steadily declining since peaking in 1962 and 1963 at 2.20% per annum. In 2007 the growth rate was 1.19% per annum."

"The actual annual growth in the number of humans fell from its peak of 87.5 million per annum in 1989, to a low of 76.4 million per annum in 2002, at which it stabilised and has started to slowly rise again to 79.4 million per annum in 2007, and 80.2 million per annum in 2009"

"In some countries there is negative population growth (ie. net decrease in population over time)"

If Adam and Eve had no genetic defects then inbreeding would be fine because there would be no problems of two defective alleles coinciding in their offspring, but with the defects we have these days that would produce something like a village in Tennessee.

I don't think there is any such thing as being genetically flawless. Mutations do occur randomly or by environmental factors such as harmful chemicals, radiation, etc. Just by breeding, there will be changes (descent with modification). The environment then starts "selecting" the creatures who have advantages from the mutations. They prosper and reproduce, passing on the mutations. Those without the mutations have a harder time competing and either die off, move to another environment, or eventually develop other mutations. Evolution.

After they've had that a couple of times they stop coming back so everyone just assumed they were cured.

Or they stopped going because they realized it wasn't working.

 

[Eudaimonist]

"In some countries there is negative population growth (ie. net decrease in population over time)"

Thank you for mentioning this. It's amazing to me how few people know this.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[BranwenUerchLlyr]

False.

This criteria is a mainstay by the scientific community.
Take for example the hot inflationary model for the Big Bang…there are numerous competing models, however, the one that requires the least amount of fine tuning will be considered to be the most accurate.

The principle of accepting a theory that best explains new evidence (ie is most predictive), among competing theories that already meet the criteria of adequacy, is the mainstay you're referring to. Note that you cannot bypass meeting the criteria of adequacy--which all of the retroactive Biblical explanations fail to do. This is why scientists do not accept the flood story as what created the Grand Canyon, that Behemoth was a dinosaur, or that Mitochondrial Eve and Y-Chromosomal Adam are actually describing Eve and Noah of the Bible. Establish that any of these ideas actually do meet the criteria of adequacy, and then we may proceed on to which acceptable models best explain what we observe.

 

[ApplePie7]

FreeForum looks like a great site...although this morning its server went down...I'll try again tomorrow. Thank you.

I reference your material in my ministry and I send people to FaithFreedom. I expect this new site to be secure enough so I can send people to it. Thank you...God bless.

Thanks for your reply…

From what I have found, freeforums has an uptime of >99%, and I have yet to encounter any access problems with it since I have been using it. It supports the Arabic & Greek script nicely, although it does not presently support pictures.

I have not rejoined FFI since they changed their formatting – of which, I still prefer the old forum. I’m not too interested in the constant vulgarity that they allow either; thus, there is really no need to go back there.

Their sister wiki site also is extremely difficult to work with, and people are constantly sabotaging the exegesis – of which, the mods are likewise constantly having to “undue” the changes made to it. There is enough work just with the exegesis than to be distracted by all of these pithy things – so I decided to go to freeforums, where I can control the distraction level.

I have many, many things in the works, so stay tuned…

 

[Rasta]

The absence of Chromosomal defects means inbreeding is fine. This could also explain the long lives of the ancients.

The problem is, that all evidence we have found suggests that this assumption is false. The average life expectency for early man in the Upper Paleolithic era was 33 years.

Those are due to the Fall when man decided he would be apart from God.

How does this explain birth defects found in animals that lived well before the existence of man?

There's loads of things in the 66 book Bible that are testable.

Yes, there is. Many have been found to be completely false.

The one about telling a mountain to jump in the sea is on hold owing to rising sea levels (science still hasn't caught up with that one) but the rest still work fine.

Only if you suspend logic and reason.

 

[Rasta]

Apple Pie, why do humans have a tail bone?

 

[MorkandMindy]

It’s called geometric progression

Please elaborate.

Well the logarithm of two is about 0.3 and the log of the Earth's population is about 9.6 so that is two to the power of 32, now we started from 2 so if the population doubles each generation then it would take 31 from Adam and Eve.

That is wrong because of the Deluge, and the log Earth pop is about 9.8, OK start with 8 then and it is 30 generations on from the Ark doubling at each generation.

With a tripling each generation the present population would be achieved in 20 generations and with a quadrupling in 16, but slower growth rates stretch the time frame out a lot; a 20% growth gives 123 generations.
...

What the heck to do those numbers mean and do you have some source for this information?

If you double the population at each generation you get 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256, 512, 1024, that's times a thousand every ten generations, so it is about a million after twenty and about a billion in thirty and Earth's human population right now is about 6,760,000,000 (wikipedia), which is just short of the 8 Billion you would have at generation 33.

That is a geometric progression.

Alternatively you can skip the math, get bacteria that double every 20 minutes at room temperature, put them with a food they like and watch what happens.

The only problem with that is that the human population growth doesn't double at each generation. Population growth is not a constant. It completely ignores the limited age ranges between puberty and menopause when women can reproduce, the infant mortality rates, death rates, prosperity and health of a population, and near extinctions of some societies due to natural disasters and disease, etc.

Also from wiki:
"Globally, the growth rate of the human population has been steadily declining since peaking in 1962 and 1963 at 2.20% per annum. In 2007 the growth rate was 1.19% per annum."

"The actual annual growth in the number of humans fell from its peak of 87.5 million per annum in 1989, to a low of 76.4 million per annum in 2002, at which it stabilised and has started to slowly rise again to 79.4 million per annum in 2007, and 80.2 million per annum in 2009"

"In some countries there is negative population growth (ie. net decrease in population over time)"
...

I simplified the figures to avoid the 'geometric progression' issue, and gave a result of 123 generations if the growth rate was 20% per generation.


But there is nothing inconceivable about a doubling per generation especially if the limits to growth haven't been reached.


I don't think there was birth control in the post deluge era nor was it an industrialised consumer society where people tried to keep up with the Jones, on the contrary a large families was considered a blessing.


About the closest I can think of to that situation at present would be somewhere in Africa. The overall population of Africa was 221 Million in 1950 and 973 Million in 2008 according to wikipedia.


That isn't all that far short of doubling each generation despite drought, famine, disease, AIDS and wars.



(and yes, the use of the word 'inconceivable' was intended to be ironic)

 

[awitch]

I simplified the figures to avoid the 'geometric progression' issue, and gave a result of 123 generations if the growth rate was 20% per generation.

Maybe you can direct me to the source of your statistics? So I can see the unsimplified version?

But there is nothing inconceivable about a doubling per generation especially if the limits to growth haven't been reached.

Depends on population you are starting with. The smaller the population, the easier it is.

 

[franklin]

Evolution if fact so we might as well just accept it. To question evolution is no different then questioning gravity or air.

Isn't reality mind boggling?

 

[MorkandMindy]

Evolution if fact so we might as well just accept it. To question evolution is no different then questioning gravity or air.

Isn't reality mind boggling?

OK, you tell me what gravity is and I'll stop doubting it's existence.

.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

OK, you tell me what gravity is and I'll stop doubting it's existence.

.

Warping of the spacetime continuum.

 

[dewaddict84]

OK, you tell me what gravity is and I'll stop doubting it's existence.

Gravity is the effect we observe that causes two bodies to attract each other. Usually this is seen between your own person and planet, causing you to fall down. How exactly it happens is being debated by physicists. I'm really not a physicist, so I can't say much there.

Evolution is the effect we observe that causes species to change over time. Exactly how it happensis debated, but we've got a pretty good idea. Go read the first post if you want some more of the "how" explained.

 

[WingsOfEagles07]

Why do evolutionists get so offensive, or should I say people who BELIEVE WHAT THEY READ, get so Offensive when a Christian who knows His stuffs Disproves all your theories? Because Once he Disproves one thing, you all go straight to another then another, then another, until it eventually runs out, until someone says the same thing but with different words..And this site does not say Evolution Debate Forum, Why do " people who believe in evolution " come to a Christian Forum and tell people about Evolution, because true christians (note word: TRUE) know that evolution is false. Evolution from Animals, Apes, Homo-Whatever, is stupid..Let me ask you this, Humans have exsisted because in the year 1000, but over 1009 years How come we have not evolved into anything else?? Not even The Slightest bit of form?? Just Wondering.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

Why do evolutionists get so offensive, or should I say people who BELIEVE WHAT THEY READ, get so Offensive when a Christian who knows His stuffs Disproves all your theories?

We don't, mainly because no one's ever disproven evolution. It's survived 150 years of rigorous testing, and it's better than ever.

Because Once he Disproves one thing, you all go straight to another then another, then another, until it eventually runs out, until someone says the same thing but with different words..

Of course. Why wouldn't we? If you refute a given explanation, we'll just use that fact to refine our understanding, and come up with a better one. That's why science is so good at what it does: it's improves itself by discarding what has been shown to be false (e.g., classical mechanics, Lamarckian evolution).

And this site does not say Evolution Debate Forum, Why do " people who believe in evolution " come to a Christian Forum and tell people about Evolution, because true christians (note word: TRUE) know that evolution is false.

"No True Scotsman..." fallacy. The majority of Christians and Christian organisations accept evolution as established scientific knowledge.

We come to this forum for all sorts of reasons. Personally, I came here because I couldn't comprehend why people believe things differently from me (be it on science, ethics, politics, etc). I've learned a lot.

I also like to help people when they have questions about science, physics, evolution, etc. You see, some people actually want to learn about the thing they disagree with, instead of spouting half-conceived nonsense and making a fool of themselves.

Evolution from Animals, Apes, Homo-Whatever, is stupid..

Appeal to ridicule. A theories validity is based on its own merits, not on how 'stupid' you think it is.

Let me ask you this, Humans have exsisted because in the year 1000, but over 1009 years How come we have not evolved into anything else?? Not even The Slightest bit of form?? Just Wondering.

Because that would take millions of years, not a mere 1009. If you look at the fossil record that documents human ancestry over the past millennia, you'll see that we have indeed evolved.

 

[WingsOfEagles07]

I am not not going to argue about evolution with you guys. I know that it is wrong, and When you said people accept Evolution meaning christians do, Did you not notice i said " TRUE " ?? My church does not accept evolution, because evolution is just a theory that has became a religion over time and is being used to decieve people in saying that CREATION is wrong and providing " so-Called " Evidence that people on here like you that only HEAR & Read About. Not actually Dicovering something yourself, because if you did you wouldn't spend worthless hours and endless posts on a Christian Forum on the Internet everyday. I am not offended in any way of Evolution, because GOD says not to let your heart be decieved, and if people would open your eyes up then you could see that everything in the bible relates to everything, OLD TESTAMENT Relates or Symbolizes the NEW TESTAMENT, If you know how to study the bible..You all are not open to other beliefs because you are so brought into Evolution and you all are SO SURE that you guys are right..But where is the 100% proof that you guys are right and GOD & Christians are Wrong??

And you know What? If you all are right, What would us CHRISTIANS Lose if we died?? We would lose nothing because you all were right, we came from nothing so there is nothing after life, What is the point in knowing that we came from Bacteria or soem animal years ago if nothing is nothing when we die? That is Foolish, but What if Us CHRISTIANS are right?? CREATION is Right?? What will you guys lose?? You guys will lose everything, and I gurantee you the moment your Eyes are opened up in hell you will become a CREATIONIST IN THE BLINK OF AN EYE!

 

[hikersong]

WOE (07)...I'm new to this forum, and I've just read through the discussion. The folks who have been defending the theory of evolution have been, over all, very patient, gracious and humble, even when they have been misquoted or simply not listened to.

Your response to all this is: "I am not not going to argue about evolution with you guys. I know that it is wrong" and "I gurantee you the moment your Eyes are opened up in hell you will become a CREATIONIST IN THE BLINK OF AN EYE!".

You are, of course, free to disagree. You are free not to listen. And you are free as well to demonstrate ignorance and hatred. You are clearly exercising these freedoms. Maybe when you grow older you will put away childish things.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

I don't expect a response, but whatever.

I am not not going to argue about evolution with you guys. I know that it is wrong, and When you said people accept Evolution meaning christians do, Did you not notice i said " TRUE " ??

Yes. Did you notice that I called it a logical fallacy?

My church does not accept evolution, because evolution is just a theory that has became a religion over time

In what way is it a religion? Where are the temples for natural selection? Where are the priests reading from On the Origin of Species?

and is being used to decieve people in saying that CREATION is wrong and providing " so-Called " Evidence that people on here like you that only HEAR & Read About.

The evidence is there for anyone to preuse. There's a reason it's unimously accepted by the scientific community (who had first-hand experience dealing with the evidence), but not the populace at large (who don't).

Not actually Dicovering something yourself, because if you did you wouldn't spend worthless hours and endless posts on a Christian Forum on the Internet everyday.

Worthless? I think I'll be the judge of that, thank you very much.

I am not offended in any way of Evolution, because GOD says not to let your heart be decieved, and if people would open your eyes up then you could see that everything in the bible relates to everything, OLD TESTAMENT Relates or Symbolizes the NEW TESTAMENT, If you know how to study the bible..

What does the Bible have to do with anything?

You all are not open to other beliefs because you are so brought into Evolution and you all are SO SURE that you guys are right..But where is the 100% proof that you guys are right and GOD & Christians are Wrong??

Nowhere. But then, no one claims to have proof. What we do claim to have, however, is evidence. The evidence is so convincing that we're more sure that all life is descended from a common ancestor than we are that atoms exist!
Moreover, there is no evidence that Creationism is true, or that God exists.

And you know What? If you all are right, What would us CHRISTIANS Lose if we died?? We would lose nothing because you all were right, we came from nothing so there is nothing after life, What is the point in knowing that we came from Bacteria or soem animal years ago if nothing is nothing when we die?

Because we only have one life, and so we should make the most of it. I am a scientist, and I get great pleasure in understanding how the world works. Knowledge is its own reward.

But more to the point, if we're right about evolution, why does that say anything about the afterlife? What on Earth makes you think that the truth about evolution has any say on what happens after we die?

That is Foolish, but What if Us CHRISTIANS are right?? CREATION is Right?? What will you guys lose?? You guys will lose everything, and I gurantee you the moment your Eyes are opened up in hell you will become a CREATIONIST IN THE BLINK OF AN EYE!

And what if the Buddhists are right? Or the Hindus, or the Sikhs, or the Mulsims? No, I'm going to believe what can be justified.

 

[LightSeaker]

You guys will lose everything, and I gurantee you the moment your Eyes are opened up in hell you will become a CREATIONIST IN THE BLINK OF AN EYE!

Just a thought...ones salvation has nothing to do with their belief or non-belief in evolution.

.

 

[PuzzledBread]

I am not not going to argue about evolution with you guys.

You aren't arguing, you're calling it stupid and asking questions which show you don't even understand the basis of this theory you loathe so much.

I know that it is wrong, and When you said people accept Evolution meaning christians do, Did you not notice i said " TRUE " ?? My church does not accept evolution, because evolution is just a theory that has became a religion over time and is being used to decieve people in saying that CREATION is wrong and providing " so-Called " Evidence that people on here like you that only HEAR & Read About.

I lol'd, hard. So you're saying that only Baptists and other sects which believe in the literal interpretation of genesis are true christians?

Just what you're saying is completely ironic and nonsensical. First, it isn't just a theory. How many times must we explain. Theory in science is something extremely well founded, its an explanation of a fact. The fact being EVOLUTION. Evolution has happened, the theory is just how we explain it. Just like atomic theory or gravitational theory. Are you going to pretend gravity doesn't exist? No, no one is that damn stupid.

It isn't a religion, it is a theory of biology. If evolution was proven false in a peer reviewed paper, no one would believe it anymore, because that is how science works. You can't disprove god, you can disprove evolution if its false. It is indoctrinated into you from birth and you can never let it go. We choose to believe science because well, it works. We're talking now, because of scientific theories. I'm listening to music right now because of science, and I'm currently illuminated because of science. If science didn't exist I probably would be dead right now, seeing as how I had surgery half a year ago.

This "so-called" evidence can be retested. That's what science does. If you said "ok, I don't believe this [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth]" And decided to follow these tests to the letter and perform them yourself, you'd get the same results, and if you didn't, you'd have material to write your own paper refuting the last paper. You just want to remain ignorant because thats whats comfortable. You based your entire faith around myths and if those myths go, you will lose your faith. A true Christian would be more resiliant in faith wouldn't they?

Not actually Dicovering something yourself, because if you did you wouldn't spend worthless hours and endless posts on a Christian Forum on the Internet everyday.I am not offended in any way of Evolution, because GOD says not to let your heart be decieved, and if people would open your eyes up then you could see that everything in the bible relates to everything.

Ok, I'd rather not have someone else open my eyes, I don't trust where their hands have been.

Science is ALL about self discovery. Everything can be retested, reobserved. Just because someone tells me jupiter exists doesn't mean I can't discover it for myself. I can look through a telescope and feel a sense of discovery. You can study evolution and test it and even observe it, and feel that sense of discovery, we just don't have the time to discover every bit of science. It must be easier when you have only one thing to discover, God.

My heart has never felt decieved by any science, it has embraced me and holds many wonderful and interesting careers that I can choose from.

I have never read the bible and said "Wow, its like the authors know me!" I can't relate to it. I'm an 18 year old engineering student who plays guitar in his spare time and loves to be in relationships. The Bible tells me what I love I should hate, that this life is basically transitory, that most of my friends, family, and myself are evil just for not believing. I do not relate at all to the bible.

OLD TESTAMENT Relates or Symbolizes the NEW TESTAMENT, If you know how to study the bible..You all are not open to other beliefs because you are so brought into Evolution and you all are SO SURE that you guys are right..But where is the 100% proof that you guys are right and GOD & Christians are Wrong??

Listen, the irony is overwhelming me. Like, its mesmerizing. You're saying we were indoctrined into evolution? Really? That god is the rational choice? This is gold, pure comedic gold. There is no agreed upon way to study the bible. So how are you so sure you are right? Thbe bible never explains itself, so you're going based on assumptions. We are not sure we are right, we are sure that by following the scientific method, we will get as close to reality as possible, because the scientific method is based on logic. It is not a religion because it lacks rituals and worship, only the belief that logic is true. Evolution doesn't prove religion wrong, it proves that genesis was in some way figurative if you choose to believe it. God does not require a 6000 year old earth to be possible, it isn't our aim to destroy religion, its our aim that no matter what someone's creed is, they agree science is the best way of understanding our natural universe. Science doesn't care about supernatural events, if you want to believe in god, go ahead, we don't mind. If you want to believe something that evidence is against, you're a moron.

And you know What? If you all are right, What would us CHRISTIANS Lose if we died?? We would lose nothing because you all were right, we came from nothing so there is nothing after life, What is the point in knowing that we came from Bacteria or soem animal years ago if nothing is nothing when we die? That is Foolish, but What if Us CHRISTIANS are right?? CREATION is Right?? What will you guys lose?? You guys will lose everything, and I gurantee you the moment your Eyes are opened up in hell you will become a CREATIONIST IN THE BLINK OF AN EYE!

Hahaha, Pascal's Wager. There are thousands of religions. What if you guys are wrong? And our god is Allah? You guys are pretty screwed. What if the Hindus are right? The Jews? What if no one is right, and god requires we do a special dance before and after we sleep to reach the afterlife? What if, what if, what if. Its useless to speculate. The best idea is to say "These options are all ridiculous, I will simply enjoy my life without worrying theres a man in the sky who wants to stab me in the shingles with a trident for not believing in him.

Honestly, if I went to hell, I'd probably instantly lose my mind. Because it just shows the universe is evil. Theres a god, who places tons of evidence that science is correct, when it isn't, only so he can mess with people with naturally curious and rational minds.

 

[SuicidalRevolver]

I believe this has been stated before, but...

You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

I know how some people are offended by being compared to animals, but let's face the facts here: Many deniers simply don't want to believe they came from apes. Trust me, I've encountered enough people in my life that says that exact line, or a variation of it. People, or humans, or homo-sapiens, generally want to feel special. (Generally speaking, to both people with or without faith) They want to think that they're better than feces-flinging savages. They want to believe there's something there to guide them. They want to believe that after death, there's something after it. They want to go with the majority, and not stray away to what's disapproved by the members of the community. Trust me, I'm not calling myself special by not aligning to the said properties. But before they can have an ear to listen to anything non-Christian, they have to at least grasp the concept and realize that:

1. We ARE/MIGHT BE/CAN BE/CAN POSSIBLY BE a descendant of an animal.

2. We ARE/MIGHT BE/CAN BE/CAN POSSIBLY BE considered an animal.

3. We WILL NOT/CANNOT/MIGHT NOT get shunned out by the said community.

4. We CAN think differently, and expose ourselves to other opinions.

I, myself, have never been brought up as a Christian, and thus I have never been drilled since birth to believe in the Bible. However, I have been forced to go to church, and recently, have begun my own interpretation of the faith. (This is not relevant to the point, but merely a background information)

Thus, I have never been told, first up, that neither evolution NOR creationism was right or wrong. Now, looking at a rational and logical standpoint, for I lack spiritual/personal view upon either of the choices, I studied evolution both mandatory by the Japanese government (Which holds no religious preference) and by my preference, and as it was being taught as "INFORMATION" in school, I have made my own decisions and decided that it made logical sense... As with many other subjects. (Physics, arithmatics, sociology, etc) But then, I observe that many people shun out the subject simply because they've been taught that it was wrong.

Well, for a rather crude example, I could have been taught that 48x56 was 3092, and that anything else is wrong. I could either go with the information and accept it, or I can research (Or, in this case, calculate) and find out for myself. Oddly enough, the answer is 2688. Despite what was told to me, I took the initiative and found it out myself.

The deal with the biblical reference, however, is that they create an inconclusive and inanswerable statements, so that if you think otherwise, the majority can simply drown you with the lines from the bible, which could very well be misinterpreted. (Of course, you can read the bible yourself and make your own interpretation... But do so without bias provided by others, would you?) As for science (Or whatever else it's called, since people like ApplePie7 called it something else), you can use logic and SELECTIVE information gathering, using search engines, cited information, and so on. Now, from the above post, which side can get a head start? Can an infant decide what is right and wrong without being taught? And if that infant has been told continually that a certain thing is wrong, what will it believe when it grows up?

As MANY have said earlier... You have to have the ears to listen, not just yell "I DUN HEAR NUTTIN" and point out mistakes... Which isn't mistakes at all, but rather misinterpretation and misguided bias.

Also... Instead of jumping to the gun and pointing out the flaws in my post, just let it ring in your head for a second. I may have said things poorly, but it should make sense.