Evolution of de novo genes; a further nail in the coffin of intelligent design?

[Shemjaza]

Yes, true. However, abiogenesis is necessary for life to exist and then evolve. Editing to add: a self-replicating isn't life until information can be conveyed.

Not really.

I doesn't matter to the process of evolution how life started. The systems evolution can generate new information.

 

[Speedwell]

I stand corrected on the thread subject. I will address this post since you responded.

Can you demonstrate how information arose without any evolution taking place? I am not claiming that information isn't passed on through evolutionary processes but I am referring to where information arose in the first place.

Information is generated by the evolutionary process itself. It takes a some to get started (abiogenesis) but after that evolution generated more information, as much more as was required to form the immense and complex biosphere we see today from relatively simple self-replicating organisms.

 

[Strathos]

Kind of off topic, but doesn't it seem a little narcissistic to have a quote from Galileo in your signature, followed by one from yourself?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

One of the cornerstones of the intelligent design argument is that natural processes are incapable of creating the necessary genetic information to enable the various functions required for biological organisms.

Stephen Meyer (currently the most prolific ID proponent) in particular makes this a crux of his core argument for ID. He uses it in particular in the context of the Cambrian explosion, claiming that evolution cannot explain the origin of all the required genetic information for Cambrian fauna.

Lately I've been reading up on the concept of de novo gene evolution. Traditional thinking of the evolution of genes revolves largely around gene duplications and subsequent evolutionary modification. IOW, new genes evolving from pre-existing genes.

With de novo gene evolution, you have the evolution of new genes from non-genic DNA. In this manner, novel genes can evolve without ancestral genes preceding them.

This paper in particular describes various proposed mechanisms for de novo gene evolution: De novo gene birth

This area of gene evolution appears less understood, but as more is learned about how de novo genes evolve, that can further answer the question of where all that wonderful genetic information came from.

.... y'know, sometimes I wonder if despite his errors, Lamarck had something in his thinking that Darwin didn't.

 

[Oncedeceived]

By any definition of "information" that is directly applicable to genetics, evolution can and does give rise to said information.

Information was necessary prior to evolution. The language/code, the message, and the goal are necessary prior to any evolution to occur.

Which is the entire point of this thread: mechanisms by which de novo genes can arise via evolution.

The mechanisms necessary for evolution needs to be there prior to de novo genes arising.

If one wishes to argue otherwise (e.g. that there is some sort of nebulous"information" in biology by which evolution cannot account for), then that needs to be demonstrated. Thus far, I have not seen any support for such claims. And yes, I've read the ID literature on the subject and already know exactly why such claims are inherently flawed.

Tell me then where the information arose that allows for evolution.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Kind of off topic, but doesn't it seem a little narcissistic to have a quote from Galileo in your signature, followed by one from yourself?

Why would that be?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Not really.

I doesn't matter to the process of evolution how life started. The systems evolution can generate new information.

It is understandable to separate abiogenesis from evolution in theory but it remains the foundation on which evolution depends. It hardly can be said to not matter.

 

[Speedwell]

Information was necessary prior to evolution. The language/code, the message, and the goal are necessary prior to any evolution to occur.

The language/code, the message, and the goal ??? What? Are you sure you are talking about the theory of evolution?

The mechanisms necessary for evolution needs to be there prior to de novo genes arising.

You mean the process?

Tell me then where the information arose that allows for evolution.

Evolution generates the information as it proceeds.

 

[Speedwell]

It is understandable to separate abiogenesis from evolution in theory but it remains the foundation on which evolution depends. It hardly can be said to not matter.

It doesn't matter in the sense that any process which would result in abiogenesis would support evolution.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Information is generated by the evolutionary process itself. It takes a some to get started (abiogenesis) but after that evolution generated more information, as much more as was required to form the immense and complex biosphere we see today from relatively simple self-replicating organisms.

How does evolution generate coded information when information is not matter or energy?

 

[Oncedeceived]

The language/code, the message, and the goal ??? What? Are you sure you are talking about the theory of evolution?

You mean the process?

Evolution generates the information as it proceeds.

Yes, I am talking about evolution. The language/code is necessary to convey a message/blue print that determines the goal of what that message conveyed.

Again, it is necessary for evolution to proceed to have the information prior to it.

 

[Oncedeceived]

It doesn't matter in the sense that any process which would result in abiogenesis would support evolution.

So evolution is unfalsifiable?

 

[pitabread]

Information was necessary prior to evolution. The language/code, the message, and the goal are necessary prior to any evolution to occur.

Why is that necessary?

The mechanisms necessary for evolution needs to be there prior to de novo genes arising.

Okay. And?

Tell me then where the information arose that allows for evolution.

In the context of the evolution of genes, the information we are talking about is a result of the process of evolution not a prerequisite.

Now if you're wondering how something can arise in that manner, I suggest reading up on the concept of emergent properties: Emergence - Wikipedia

 

[Speedwell]

How does evolution generate coded information when information is not matter or energy?

No, you're right, it isn't. "Information" is a mathematical way of characterizing patterns of physical objects. What you are asking is is basically the same as "how do chemical reactions form patterns of molecules?"

 

[Speedwell]

So evolution is unfalsifiable?

Evolution is falsifiable and depends on the pre-existence of self-replicating life forms. No one knows how those first life forms arose--it could have been in any number of ways. but that doesn't effect evolution, just as driving your car doesn't depend on what brand of tires you buy. As long as it's got some kind of tires it will run.

 

[Speedwell]

Yes, I am talking about evolution. The language/code is necessary to convey a message/blue print that determines the goal of what that message conveyed.

Sorry, there's nothing like that in the theory of evolution. You must be talking about some other theory.

Again, it is necessary for evolution to proceed to have the information prior to it.

Why?

 

[Strathos]

Why would that be?

Because it makes it seem like you're elevating yourself to the same status of historical importance as him.

 

[Oncedeceived]

No, you're right, it isn't. "Information" is a mathematical way of characterizing patterns of physical objects. What you are asking is is basically the same as "how do chemical reactions form patterns of molecules?"

Patterns are not codes. Patterns do not convey information.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Because it makes it seem like you're elevating yourself to the same status of historical importance as him.

I didn't intend for it to be taken that way.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Sorry, there's nothing like that in the theory of evolution. You must be talking about some other theory.

DNA is not part of the theory of evolution?

Why?[/QUOTE]The code needs to be present prior to any process of evolution.