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Evolution Lesson

Speedwell

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Knowing is not an emotion. You are talking about having an opinion. You don't have any testable or verifiable facts to back up your opinion.
I suppose I do have opinions about my faith, but they aren't very important. As to testable or verifiable facts, what testable or verifiable facts do you have to back up how you feel when you appreciate, say, a beautiful painting? But yes, faith is in that part of knowing called the Affective Domain. There is nothing testable or verifiable or even, really, explainable about it.
 
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Kylie

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I suppose I do have opinions about my faith, but they aren't very important. As to testable or verifiable facts, what testable or verifiable facts do you have to back up how you feel when you appreciate, say, a beautiful painting? But yes, faith is in that part of knowing called the Affective Domain. There is nothing testable or verifiable or even, really, explainable about it.

Not the same thing. No one has ever said that a painting is beautiful from a scientific point of view. Subjective opinions about whether something is beautiful and objective facts about the nature of the universe are two completely different things.

And as soon as you claim that a particular thing is an objective fact, then you need to produce evidence to back up that claim.
 
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Speedwell

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Not the same thing. No one has ever said that a painting is beautiful from a scientific point of view. Subjective opinions about whether something is beautiful and objective facts about the nature of the universe are two completely different things.

And as soon as you claim that a particular thing is an objective fact, then you need to produce evidence to back up that claim.
I'll remember that when I make such a claim.
 
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SelfSim

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I know God is there. I don't need your cosmology to find Him.
I personally, don't have a problem with your 'knowing' God is there.

All (I think) that's going on there, is that your mind gave your knowledge the meaning that God is present .. (which happens to everyone, every day ..)
 
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SelfSim

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Like claiming that God definitely exists, as you did in post 416?
We should remember that 'exists' has a meaning too ..
Its the way we go about giving words meaning that matters and, I think, in Speedwell's case, he's just gone about it in a different way to the way science goes about it .. that's all(?)

ETA: Eg: I kicked my toe on the back step this morning .. I had that mean: 'It hurts!' (amongst several other unrepeatably emotionally motivated meanings).
 
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Speedwell

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I personally, don't have a problem with you're 'knowing' God is there.

All (I think) that's going on there, is that your mind gave your knowledge the meaning that God is present .. (which happens to everyone, every day ..)
Something like that.
 
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Kylie

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Did I say that? I said that I know that God exists.

And as it turned out, you meant you have a very strong opinion that God exists, but no actual evidence.

Being sure of something is not the same thing as knowing something.
 
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Speedwell

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And as it turned out, you meant you have a very strong opinion that God exists, but no actual evidence.

Being sure of something is not the same thing as knowing something.
If you like, although I don't think that describes my faith experience, which does not lie in the cognitive domain.
 
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Astrid

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If you like, although I don't think that describes my faith experience, which does not lie in the cognitive domain.

We are taught that the function of emotion is to give power to
our conscious decisions.

To allow emotions to decide and run the show is self indulgence,
and very harnful.
 
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Speedwell

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We are taught that the function of emotion is to give power to
our conscious decisions.

To allow emotions to decide and run the show is self indulgence,
and very harnful.
The theist may quote Psalm 19: "The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament sheweth His handiwork." On the other hand, the atheist may say "Wow, the universe is awesome!" Together they can say, "Let us engage science to find out more about how it works." Atheists as well as theists construct meaning for themselves, it's just a question of flavor. Chocolate or vanilla, it's still ice cream.

Problems only emerge when theists start asserting falsifiable propositions as a basis for their faith.
 
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Astrid

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The theist may quote Psalm 19: "The heavens declare the glory of God and the firmament sheweth His handiwork." On the other hand, the atheist may say "Wow, the universe is awesome!" Together they can say, "Let's engage science to find out more about how it works."

Ok but how does that relate to what I said
 
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Astrid

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Through the sentence in my post which you did not quote.
Ah so desu ka, the part you had not written yet.

I still dont see that you dealt with what I said about self
indulgence.
If it helps to see what I'm getting at,
"knowing" god is real via emotions
is like falling in love. Young people
"fall in love", betimes at first sight and
"know" its love coz its how they feel.
Indulge in that and soon enough bad
news comes knocking at the garden gate.

We are taught that one seeks
(Or as so common in the past, one
is chosen for you) a partner for practical
reasons.
( the ones that soon enough kill
so many romantic relationships)

Perhaps a long loveless marriage will
result from either approach. Of course.

But when "true" love comes in either
setting you will know because it is in
everything the other does.
And of course, you will feel it!

See what I mean about feeling is not
knowing, but self indulgence?
 
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Speedwell

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Ah so desu ka, the part you had not written yet.

I still dont see that you dealt with what I said about self
indulgence.
If it helps to see what I'm getting at,
"knowing" god is real via emotions
is like falling in love. Young people
"fall in love", betimes at first sight and
"know" its love coz its how they feel.
Indulge in that and soon enough bad
news comes knocking at the garden gate.

We are taught that one seeks
(Or as so common in the past, one
is chosen for you) a partner for practical
reasons.
( the ones that soon enough kill
so many romantic relationships)

Perhaps a long loveless marriage will
result from either approach. Of course.

But when "true" love comes in either
setting you will know because it is in
everything the other does.
And of course, you will feel it!

See what I mean about feeling is not
knowing, but self indulgence?
It may well be just that. I believe because of the pleasure it gives me, and as long as I take care that I do no harm through it...
 
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Kylie

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If you like, although I don't think that describes my faith experience, which does not lie in the cognitive domain.

Very well, I'll accept your claims as to the nature of your faith experience. But that still doesn't mean it is fact.
 
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Speedwell

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Very well, I'll accept your claims as to the nature of your faith experience. But that still doesn't mean it is fact.
It's a fact that I have the experience ;) but the existence of God is not a fact, it's an unfalsifiable proposition. I don't need it to be a fact because, unlike the Creationists, I don't have a political agenda which requires that I prove it to you.
 
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Kylie

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It's a fact that I have the experience ;) but the existence of God is not a fact, it's an unfalsifiable proposition. I don't need it to be a fact because, unlike the Creationists, I don't have a political agenda which requires that I prove it to you.

I agree with you. The fact is that you had an experience, and you attributed it to God. Of course, facts aren't useful only for proving it to others...
 
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