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Evolution is a Lie

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rjc34

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Then present your refutation

Burden of proof is on your, friend. Can't make baseless claims and then expect them to be refuted. You first have to show you've actually done some work on the matter, rather than just spat out an irrelevant point and held to it because it's what you do.

Make a point and then prove it. And no, we don't accept citation from 100% biased 'research' organizations like ICR, AiG, CSI, conservapedia or creationwiki. Nothing that bastardizes the scientific method by claiming 'peer-review!' and then giving articles to a select group of YEC's that will provide the desired response anyway. Want real peer review? Let some real scientists onto the board.
 
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Nathan Poe

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It's you. Spot yourself in the following analogy

The great pyramid is clearly designed.

Darwinist: The great pyramid can be built by chance

ID: Provide some data

Darwinist: You think refuting Darwinism means ID is true?

ID: You haven't refuted ID. Spot yourself in the following analogy. The human system is designed.

Darwinist: Man can be assembled by chance

ID: Provide the data

Darwinist: You think refuting Darwinism means ID is true?

ID: You haven't refuted intelligent design.

The human system is clearly the product of intelligence. This isn't a question. You made the preposterous claim that it can come about by chance due to your affinity for materialistic constructs and attempt to drag ne into it. If you want evidence see man. It's that simple. Materialism is not that difficult to contend with, if you can call it a contention. There's a difference between men discussing the builders of the great pyramid and a man walking by saying it can be assembled by chance.



I'm beginning to get the idea that you think the character defamation of these sources sans rebuttal actually worked

Question: have you ever seen a pyramid give birth to little pyramids?

Does the no to the above question cause you to think that maybe non-living things aren't perfect analogies for living ones?
 
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dad

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What, you're expecting people to have been using geiger counters for more than the century or so we knew radioactivity even existed?
Not at all, I just expect you to not claim you know when you obviously do not!

Besides - the point is that, by using recent measurements of radioactivity rates, people were able to make various /predictions/ that they would be able to gather evidence consistent with such decay rates remaining constant over long periods of time, millions and billions of years; and those predictions have born fruit, and multiple independent lines of evidence have all converged on the same overall answers about the Earth being ~5 billion years old, and the universe being ~14 billion.

False. Any predictions are based on observing patterns and ratios and etc that we see in place, they do not deal with how they got in place. If you claim otherwise, put an example on the table here. That is just how it is.


You got nothin....saying plonk just doesn't impress me.
 
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rjc34

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It's you. Spot yourself in the following analogy

The great pyramid is clearly designed.

Darwinist: The great pyramid can be built by chance

ID: Provide some data

Darwinist: You think refuting Darwinism means ID is true?

ID: You haven't refuted ID. Spot yourself in the following analogy. The human system is designed.

Darwinist: Man can be assembled by chance

ID: Provide the data

Darwinist: You think refuting Darwinism means ID is true?

ID: You haven't refuted intelligent design.

A very nice straw man indeed. First of all stop calling me a 'Darwinist' or I'll report you for personal attacks. It's an insult and I take it as such. I have asked you to cease using the term before yet you continue. Consider this your final notice.

Now, let's dissect this straw man shall we? Yes, the great pyramids were designed and built by man. So your first straw man is claiming I would say otherwise. The second is making the claim that we say 'this must have come about by chance' which is factually untrue. Chance mutations cause changes, and natural selection causes beneficial mutations to flourish. Claiming otherwise is dishonest and a misrepresentation of our position. 3rd you should probably look at what ID claims before making some ridiculous assumption about it. ID fully supports the theory of evolution, its proponents just use the age old god of the gaps idea to say that 'well, this looks real complicated, and I certainly can't see how it could have come about through natural means, so that must mean goddidit'. This is a ridiculous assumption, and is why ID was thrown out in Kitzmiller Vs. Dover.

I need not refute ID because nobody has provided a single piece of evidence that is not just 'I can't see how this could have happened without a designer'. Nothing. It was simply an attempt to shoehorn creationism into the classroom, and you won't find a single secular scientist who supports it, it's purely a religious notion.

Evolution fits the evidence. To claim an intelligent designer must have been involved means you must prove your premise first, which has not been done. Thus no refutation is needed. You have failed to show anything of worth. There is nothing useful that can come of giving up and saying goddidit.

The human system is clearly the product of intelligence. This isn't a question. You made the preposterous claim that it can come about by chance due to your affinity for materialistic constructs and attempt to drag ne into it. If you want evidence see man. It's that simple. Materialism is not that difficult to contend with, if you can call it a contention. There's a difference between men discussing the builders of the great pyramid and a man walking by saying it can be assembled by chance.

Let's go over some examples of very poor design in the human body, shall we?
Appendix
Auricularis Muscles
Coccyx
Human Embryonic Tails
Fetal Circulation
Goosebumps
Grasping Reflex in Human Babies
Jaws
Kidney Development
Knee
Larynx/Pharynx junction
Limb Regeneration
Nerve 'wiring of the vertebrate retina
Nipples
Sex
Spine
Urethra

And that's just poor design in Humans! There's thousands of other examples throughout the animal kingdom.

I'm beginning to get the idea that you think the character defamation of these sources sans rebuttal actually worked

They need no defamation from an individual such as myself, all one must do is visit said sites and check the information they claim against an unbiased source to get all the defamation material one needs!
 
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Greg1234

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A very nice straw man indeed. First of all stop calling me a 'Darwinist' or I'll report you for personal attacks. It's an insult and I take it as such. I have asked you to cease using the term before yet you continue. Consider this your final notice.
And then they'll take the dictionary and see the meaning of Darwinism. It's that simple.

Now, let's dissect this straw man shall we? Yes, the great pyramids were designed and built by man.
It was built by intelligence. Do you have anything? What about Darwinism? Are you done with that?
So your first straw man is claiming I would say otherwise. The second is making the claim that we say 'this must have come about by chance' which is factually untrue. Chance mutations cause changes, and natural selection causes beneficial mutations to flourish.
And we already went over this.
Claiming otherwise is dishonest and a misrepresentation of our position. 3rd you should probably look at what ID claims before making some ridiculous assumption about it. ID fully supports the theory of evolution,
From Evolution - CreationWiki, the encyclopedia of creation science
Beyond this broad definition, the word evolution is used in a number of different ways, leading to a great deal of confusion. Three major uses of the word evolution include:

  • Biological evolution: the observable scientific fact that the genetic characteristics of species change over time, as a result of recombination, mutation, natural selection, and genetic drift.
  • Stellar evolution: the field of astronomy that describes the theoretic changes that stars are believed to undergo during their life cycle, including star formation. Since these changes are believed to occur over millions or even billions of years, astrophysicists theorize about how stars evolve by observing numerous stars, each at a different point in its life cycle, and simulating stellar structure with computer models.
  • General theory of evolution: the speculation that all life originated through purely natural processes without any act of creation (abiogenesis). It is theorized that all life on Earth originated from a single ancestral cell (common ancestry). All the biological complexity, adaptivity, and artistry on the planet is solely the result of random changes and natural selection over billions of years.
The distinction between these two uses of the word "Evolution" is important, because creationism acknowledges that biological evolution is a true and scientific reality, but argues that the theory of evolution is a speculative farce, overwhelmingly discredited by the scientific evidence.
its proponents just use the age old god of the gaps idea to say that 'well, this looks real complicated, and I certainly can't see how it could have come about through natural means, so that must mean goddidit'. This is a ridiculous assumption, and is why ID was thrown out in Kitzmiller Vs. Dover.
Call it whatever you want. Call them the Egyptians of the gaps and say "theegyptiansdidit". It doesnt change anything.

I need not refute ID because nobody has provided a single piece of evidence that is not just 'I can't see how this could have happened without a designer'. Nothing. It was simply an attempt to shoehorn creationism into the classroom, and you won't find a single secular scientist who supports it, it's purely a religious notion.
So I take it you're not here to refute the intelligent design of man but you want me to pretend-debate your non-refutation without Darwinism.

Evolution fits the evidence.
It doesn't. Present your data. :sigh:
To claim an intelligent designer must have been involved means you must prove your premise first, which has not been done. Thus no refutation is needed.
Lol. The human. Here's a tiny bit of him
YouTube - Molecular Biology's Central Dogma. The problem is not design of man. The problem is your materialistic inclinations. It didn't have to be even more spectacular. It's not some mystery. It's only the tip of the iceberg. You start to take the human system for granted and you forget the piece of technology you're dealing with.


You have failed to show anything of worth. There is nothing useful that can come of giving up and saying goddidit.
Yes and the great pyramid is designed."theEgyptiandidit". The Thor argument is irrelevant in light of an adequate understanding of theological concepts. What exactly is your point here?


Let's go over some examples of very poor design in the human body, shall we?
Appendix
Auricularis Muscles
Coccyx
Human Embryonic Tails
Fetal Circulation
Goosebumps
Grasping Reflex in Human Babies
Jaws
Kidney Development
Knee
Larynx/Pharynx junction
Limb Regeneration
Nerve 'wiring of the vertebrate retina
Nipples
Sex
Spine
Urethra

And that's just poor design in Humans! There's thousands of other examples throughout the animal kingdom.
I asked you for evidence that chance can build the human system, not what you think is poor design. There is no light when you get into certain sections of the great pyramid did you know that? To add, there is little to no protection for the driver when getting into an accident and alot of people die each year due to this "flaw". There is a blind spot on the side of the car. Tires sometimes burst on the open road. The doors are not bulletproof. Types of mirrors do not allow you to see around corners. Some cars have no all wheel drive. The exhaust is channeled all the way to the back. Lights at the front blind oncoming vehicles and can cause accidents. No beds for drunk drivers in some cars as opposed to rec vehicles. Speaking of which, high fuel consumption. Speaking of which, low mileage in some hybrid vehicles. And I could go on and on. Even if one finds what they would classify as poor design it doesn't mean that it can be built by chance.
 
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rjc34

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And then they'll take the dictionary and see the meaning of Darwinism. It's that simple.

From wikipedia: "In the United States, the term "Darwinism" is often used by creationists as a pejorative term"
"it is increasingly regarded as an inappropriate description of modern evolutionary theory."

You've been reported for your continue use of the word in a demeaning and insulting way.

It was built by intelligence. Do you have anything? What about Darwinism? Are you done with that?

I said I agreed. I also said your comparison to anything living is absolutely nonsense. Drop the example because it isn't doing anything for your case.


Remember that time I said if you wanted to quote any information on evolution to use Wikipedia, because it has an extremely well-sourced, unbiased and accurate article? All this does is show you still hold to the ludicrous and creationist fabricated view that some kind of 'universal theory of evolution' exists. It does not, and insinuating so is just another insult to your intelligence.


Call it whatever you want. Call them the Egyptians of the gaps and say "theegyptiansdidit". It doesnt change anything.

Not need for them to fill a gap, for they were very clearly the designers and builders of the pyramids. We have indisputable evidence that this is true.

So I take it you're not here to refute the intelligent design of man but you want me to pretend-debate your non-refutation without Darwinism.

I need not refute something which hasn't been put forward as a legitimate theory. It's not science, and has no supporting evidence, therefore it is your job to show me something to refute, not my job to refute something you hold true.

The problem is not design of man. The problem is your materialistic inclinations. It didn't have to be even more spectacular. It's not some mystery. It's only the tip of the iceberg. You start to take the human system for granted and you forget the piece of technology you're dealing with.

Ad Hominem attacks are not appreciated here, pal. Ether we have a civilized discussion where you present to me your ID hypothesis and the evidence to support it, and I refute it, or we don't. That's the only way this will go.


Yes and the great pyramid is designed."theEgyptiandidit". The Thor argument is irrelevant in light of an adequate understanding of theological concepts. What exactly is your point here?

Can your hypothesis make predictions? Can it provide useful insights? Can it do anything other than stifle scientific progress? Your pyramid analogy is useless and does not apply to the situation, why? Because by your logic, as we are made in gods image, and thus he is our image, he too must have a designer. You can't just propose an intelligence and then with special pleading claim that your intelligence doesn't need a designer, but human intelligence does. Your concept is absurd and simple goes into an infinite regression.


I asked you for evidence that chance can build the human system, not what you think is poor design. There is no light when you get into certain sections of the great pyramid did you know that? Even if one finds what they would classify as poor design it doesn't mean that it can be built by chance.

Here you go. I have presented to you 29+ evidences for Macroevolution/common descent. Now, I expect a full refutation using reputable sources of every claim made in that article. Good luck.

(If you need something a bit easier to digest here's the extremely long and well sourced wikipedia article on Common Descent.)


So, when can I expect your full refutation of every claim? (If you fail to refute one of them I'm right and you're wrong by your logic. I'll expect your apology and acceptance of evolution in a could days or weeks)
 
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Naraoia

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Actually, I just found a really interesting epidemiological paper on Ebola.

High prevalence of both humoral and cellular immun... [PLoS One. 2010] - PubMed result

Look at this quote from the abstract:

Get me some of that fruit/bat saliva!
Go kiss some bats :p

You asked me to name one particular item dealing with at least one of your points - I think CF210 fits the bill nicely, and so, since you tacitly agreed to my earlier suggestion should I do so, I shall assume that you'll be checking the Index to Creationist Claims on your own from now on, without my having to pipe up to offer references each and every time I notice you mention something covered in that list.
Haha, I hope you don't believe your assumption :p

BTW, I can't make sense of the tengwar in your signature, and it's killing me. (It's also making me feel unusually dense.) Would you mind satisfying my curiosity? :sorry:
 
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Greg1234

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From wikipedia: "In the United States, the term "Darwinism" is often used by creationists as a pejorative term"
"it is increasingly regarded as an inappropriate description of modern evolutionary theory."
So a man doesn't like to be called a Darwinist and he tries to outlaw it. So what? Darwinism | Define Darwinism at Dictionary.com

You've been reported for your continue use of the word in a demeaning and insulting way.
What demeaning and insulting way? You think you're the first person who's come here and instead of addressing the data opts to try personal defamation of character? It's called "poisoning the well".

I said I agreed. I also said your comparison to anything living is absolutely nonsense. Drop the example because it isn't doing anything for your case.
So you decided to take up Mr Nathan Poe's argument. We've already been over this.

Not need for them to fill a gap, for they were very clearly the designers and builders of the pyramids. We have indisputable evidence that this is true.
No actually, the great pyramid is very clearly designed. We have no way of going back into the past. This is based purely on examination, textual evidence and the methodology of intelligent design. Yes, it is quite obvious isn't it?

I need not refute something which hasn't been put forward as a legitimate theory. It's not science, and has no supporting evidence, therefore it is your job to show me something to refute, not my job to refute something you hold true.
It's not me, it's reality. You begin to take a man for granted (These are not "ad homs" by the way.

Ad Hominem attacks are not appreciated here, pal. Ether we have a civilized discussion where you present to me your ID hypothesis and the evidence to support it, and I refute it, or we don't. That's the only way this will go.
It's not a hypothesis lol. Wow. The design of the great pyramid is not a hypothesis either. The fact is the level of complexity observed along with other factors like irregularity, probability, etc match the property of intelligence. It's not some mystery. Ask anybody (And if they say no, hey, ask them for data too). This here is just materialism. You are the one who came by and said hey, it can be built by chance.




Can your hypothesis make predictions? Can it provide useful insights? Can it do anything other than stifle scientific progress? Your pyramid analogy is useless and does not apply to the situation, why? Because by your logic, as we are made in gods image, and thus he is our image, he too must have a designer. You can't just propose an intelligence and then with special pleading claim that your intelligence doesn't need a designer, but human intelligence does. Your concept is absurd and simple goes into an infinite regression.
Oh boy. Irrelevant. We are not discussing the pyramid builders but the fact that you assert that pyramid can be built by chance. You're still at that point. The human system is far more complex than that. And like I told you, without Darwinism, I'm not going to pretend-debate your non-assertions. There are, in fact, greater tasks at hand when you get past the simple fact that man is created. You separated yourself from the supernatural. The integration remains. It changes nothing.

Here you go. I have presented to you 29+ evidences for Macroevolution/common descent. Now, I expect a full refutation using reputable sources of every claim made in that article. Good luck.

(If you need something a bit easier to digest here's the extremely long and well sourced wikipedia article on Common Descent.)

So, when can I expect your full refutation of every claim? (If you fail to refute one of them I'm right and you're wrong by your logic. I'll expect your apology and acceptance of evolution in a could days or weeks)
- A Critique of ''29 Evidences for Macroevolution'' - Intro -
 
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rjc34

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These are not your refutations of the evidences put forward. I'm still awaiting yours.

The page you linked relies on a few flawed premises: 1) God exists, 2) if it looks designed, it is, 3) an inexorably flawed view of how science works.

The author also seems to love quoting well-refuted books by Jonathan Wells and other creationists/ID proponents. This is inexcusably lazy on the authors part to skip over peer-reviewed articles (Wells has written 3, all completely unrelated to ID) and using his unscientific, un reviewed books. Another fatal nail in the coffin. I said well sourced, not poorly sourced,

Due to all of these basic, fundamental flaws I reject the 'refutation' and hold the position that my evidence has not been countered. So far you are losing mr. Greg1234. How does that make you feel?
 
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Greg1234

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These are not your refutations of the evidences put forward. I'm still awaiting yours.

The page you linked relies on a few flawed premises: 1) God exists, 2) if it looks designed, it is, 3) an inexorably flawed view of how science works.

The author also seems to love quoting well-refuted books by Jonathan Wells and other creationists/ID proponents. This is inexcusably lazy on the authors part to skip over peer-reviewed articles (Wells has written 3, all completely unrelated to ID) and using his unscientific, un reviewed books. Another fatal nail in the coffin. I said well sourced, not poorly sourced,

Due to all of these basic, fundamental flaws I reject the 'refutation' and hold the position that my evidence has not been countered. So far you are losing mr. Greg1234. How does that make you feel?
:sigh: :wave:
 
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DataPacRat

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Haha, I hope you don't believe your assumption :p

No comment. :)

(Though I will say that it seems I may be the only poster who is old-school enough to understand what saying *plonk* actually /means/...)

BTW, I can't make sense of the tengwar in your signature, and it's killing me. (It's also making me feel unusually dense.) Would you mind satisfying my curiosity? :sorry:

Don't feel dense - you're among the few who're even able to identify the script on sight, and to even /try/ to understand. That curiosity puts you head and shoulders above the non-curious, in my estimation. :)

As for my signature, the difficulty you're having in making sense of it is most likely because while the characters are tengwar, the language being written with them isn't one of Tolkien's creations. As I said in my first post to this forum:

DataPacRat said:
It's a multi-leveled pun, in that it describes the most beautiful equation I know, proclaims its beauty, does so in the most beautiful language I know to express that sentiment, and is written in the most beautiful script I know of that language can be expressed in. (It transliterates to "li te'o te'a vei pai pi'i ka'o ve'o su'i pa du li no .i je'a melbi!", which roughly translates to "e^(pi*i)+1=0; most beautiful!".)
 
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sandwiches

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We pray to God and [if] He answers either directly, or through doctors.

Do you think it's a coincidence that praying to a jug of milk has the EXACT, SAME results as praying to God?

I fully expect an internet theologian's answer from AV regarding something about dispensations, basic doctrine, hermeneutics or something similar...
 
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DrkSdBls

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I ask you to tell us where your first lifeform is and you give us this??

What "first Lifeform" are you referring to? I never said anything about a First Lifeform and you never asked for one.

Well, since you are so interested in the first life form, apparently, but can't even discuss it rationally,

Um, no I'm not. Again, this is the first I've heard you mention any "first Lifeform" and not what the discussion was about.

I guess we better not add the stellar evolution to all the things you are not addressing here..:)

Good call seeing as it's a different Topic.

Seriously. We could be discussing Car Engine repair and you'll come bursting in with some reference to Jell-o and it'll make perfect sense to you, wouldn't it?



So what ya waiting for an alien invasion??

If that'll be anything like the Troll Invasion we're all familiar with, I'll pass.
 
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Lion Hearted Man

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Do you think it's a coincidence that praying to a jug of milk has the EXACT, SAME results as praying to God?

I fully expect an internet theologian's answer from AV regarding something about dispensations, basic doctrine, hermeneutics or something similar...

I predict:

"You internet scientists just don't know anything about basic doctrine. :doh:"
 
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