Evolution Goes (Retro)Viral

[JohnEmmett]

There are hundreds of hominid and archaic homo sapiens fossils that have been discovered. Most are fragmentary, but more get discovered all the time.

How do you know they weren’t here with “modern” humans all along

 

[AV1611VET]

How do you know they weren’t here with “modern” humans all along

For the record, they were "modern humans" -- (whatever that is).

They were just diseased in their bones.

 

[JohnEmmett]

They were just diseased in their bones.

…

 

[Astrid]

Some very nearly complete skeletons have though.

Little Foot, an Australopithecus skeleton, is a little more than 90% complete.
Kebara, a Homo Neanderthalis skeleton, is described as "nearly complete"
Neo, a Homo naledi skeleton, is largely complete except for a missing a section of skull, and the ankles and feet. The skeleton was discovered in a cave with the remains of 14 other Homo naledi.
Turkana Boy, a Homo Erectus skeleton, is about 70% complete.

There are hundreds of hominid and archaic homo sapiens fossils that have been discovered. Most are fragmentary, but more get discovered all the time.

As if every rib is needed or left side doesn't
show the right side, etc.



but our friend really has no idea.

Side note I actually was in the badlands in w Nebraska
with a descendant of the amateur who found the
worn broken tooth fragment that was temporarily
misidentified. A temporary misidentification.

Quite unlike the carved "paluxy footprint" creationist fake


Yet that scrap ofnothing is thought by the creationists to be a greatest weapon to defeat paleontology.

And they are right! Its as good as anything they have.

 

[AV1611VET]

A temporary misidentification.

As opposed to a long-term misidentification?

Like Pluto?

 

[Gene2memE]

How do you know they weren’t here with “modern” humans all along

Some were.

But some predate the earliest evidence of anatomically modern humans by a million years or more. Some existed in the same time, but not the same place.

(And, no, before you say anything wacky, Michael Cremo & Richard Thompson do not have evidence of anatomically modern humans being more than about 350,000-400,000 years old. Nor does anyone else.)

Assuming an upper limit of 350,000 for Homo Sapiens, Australopithecus predates modern humans by around 3.4 million years and probably died out somewhere about 1.3-1.6 million years ago.

Homo Erectus predates modern humans by about 1.5 to 1.7 million years, but some Homo Erectus sub-species were still alive when modern humans came along. However, it's not likely we inhabited the same geographic areas, as H. Erectus seems to have survived only in parts of the Asia Pacific and likely went extinct 50,000 or 60,000 years before humans got there.

Homo Neanderthalis also predates early modern humans, at least by about 100,000 years and possibly by up to 450,000. However, modern humans definitely lived at the same time and in the same place as Homo Neanderthalis - there's genetic evidence of imultiple 'pulses' of interbreeding and geographic overlap of settlement ranges in Southern Europe, Western Europe, the Levant and Eurasia for better than 20,000 years.

Homo naledi also existed at the same time and in the same place as early modern humans. However, their place in the Homo genus is much harder to ascertain. They may have branched off from an common ancestor to humans (either Australopithecus or Homo genus, its not a settled question) as much as 2 million years ago, and thus are more distant relatives than something like Homo Heidelbergis or even Homo Erectus.

 

[Astrophile]

As opposed to a long-term misidentification?

Like Pluto?

The fossil of 'Nebraska Man' (Hesperopithecus) was first reported in February 1922 (eight years before the discovery of Pluto), and correctly identified as the tooth of a peccary in December 1927, less than six years later. I think that this counts as a temporary misidentification.

Pluto was discovered in the constellation Gemini in 1930, and was reclassified as a dwarf planet 76 years later, when it had moved into Ophiuchus or Serpens. However, even from the beginning, Pluto was recognised as anomalous. In 1930 itself, the American astronomer Frederick Leonard proposed that Pluto was merely the brightest member of a trans-Neptunian asteroid belt. Less than ten years later the British astronomer Raymond Lyttleton suggest that Pluto was an escaped satellite of Neptune, and in 1949 and 1950 the Dutch-American astronomer G.P. Kuiper found by direct measurement of the disc of Pluto that it could not be larger than Venus. In any case, by the end of this century, Pluto will have been classified as a dwarf planet for more than 90 years, longer than it was classified as a true planet, so the earlier classification was not really a long-term misidentification.

 

[AV1611VET]

The fossil of 'Nebraska Man' (Hesperopithecus) was first reported in February 1922 (eight years before the discovery of Pluto), and correctly identified as the tooth of a peccary in December 1927, less than six years later. I think that this counts as a temporary misidentification.

Yes, indeed.

I agree that it was a temporary misidentification.

Pluto was discovered in the constellation Gemini in 1930, and was reclassified as a dwarf planet 76 years later, when it had moved into Ophiuchus or Serpens.

Okay.

However, even from the beginning, Pluto was recognised as anomalous.

Okay.

In 1930 itself, the American astronomer Frederick Leonard proposed that Pluto was merely the brightest member of a trans-Neptunian asteroid belt.

Okay.

Less than ten years later the British astronomer Raymond Lyttleton suggest that Pluto was an escaped satellite of Neptune, and in 1949 and 1950 the Dutch-American astronomer G.P. Kuiper found by direct measurement of the disc of Pluto that it could not be larger than Venus.

Okay, okay, and okay.

But are you telling me that our ninth planet was discovered in 1930 and, despite:

1. Being anomalous.
2. Being merely the brightest object in a trans-Neptunian asteroid belt.
3. Suggested to be an escaped satellite of Neptune.
4. Was not larger than Venus.

Despite all that, it was still considered our ninth planet on a science test?

Evidently those four things you named didn't carry enough weight to keep Pluto from getting downgraded.

And in fact, it took a rigged vote -- against the IAU's own bylaws -- to get Pluto downgraded.

So science took a hike, didn't it?

In any case, by the end of this century, Pluto will have been classified as a dwarf planet for more than 90 years, longer than it was classified as a true planet, so the earlier classification was not really a long-term misidentification.

LOL -- move that decimal point as needed to make your point.

That's good science, isn't it?

Rigging votes, moving decimal points back and forth, playing connect-the-dots, and so much more?

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Rigging votes, moving decimal points back and forth, playing connect-the-dots, and so much more?

Does it affect you or what you do in your day to day life in any way, shape or form?

 

[AV1611VET]

Does it affect you or what you do in your day to day life in any way, shape or form?

Not yet.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Not yet.

I really fail to see how the declassification of Pluto from planet to dwarf-planet can really affect you.

 

[AV1611VET]

I really fail to see how the declassification of Pluto from planet to dwarf-planet can really affect you.

It doesn't.

But if a scientific organization rigging a vote doesn't bother you, then I have to assume all your harping on science doesn't mean that much to you either.

But, hey.

The ends justifies the means, doesn't it?

And for the record, none of the following even phases you, does it?

There has been some resistance within the astronomical community toward the reclassification. Alan Stern, principal investigator with NASA's New Horizons mission to Pluto, derided the IAU resolution. He also stated that because less than five percent of astronomers voted for it, the decision was not representative of the entire astronomical community. Marc W. Buie, then at the Lowell Observatory, petitioned against the definition. Others have supported the IAU, for example Mike Brown, the astronomer who discovered Eris.

Public reception to the IAU decision was mixed. A resolution introduced in the California State Assembly facetiously called the IAU decision a "scientific heresy". The New Mexico House of Representatives passed a resolution in honor of Clyde Tombaugh, the discoverer of Pluto and a longtime resident of that state, that declared that Pluto will always be considered a planet while in New Mexican skies and that March 13, 2007, was Pluto Planet Day.

The Illinois Senate passed a similar resolution in 2009 on the basis that Tombaugh was born in Illinois. The resolution asserted that Pluto was "unfairly downgraded to a 'dwarf' planet" by the IAU." Some members of the public have also rejected the change, citing the disagreement within the scientific community on the issue, or for sentimental reasons, maintaining that they have always known Pluto as a planet and will continue to do so regardless of the IAU decision.

In 2006, in its 17th annual words-of-the-year vote, the American Dialect Society voted plutoed as the word of the year. To "pluto" is to "demote or devalue someone or something".

SOURCE

Many people up in arms about it, right down to the government level and ... hey ... who cares?

Science rules, doesn't it?

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

It doesn't.

But if a scientific organization rigging a vote doesn't bother you, then I have to assume all your harping on science doesn't mean that much to you either.

But, hey.

The ends justifies the means, doesn't it?

And for the record, none of the following even phases you, does it?

There has been some resistance within the astronomical community toward the reclassification. Alan Stern, principal investigator with NASA's New Horizons mission to Pluto, derided the IAU resolution. He also stated that because less than five percent of astronomers voted for it, the decision was not representative of the entire astronomical community. Marc W. Buie, then at the Lowell Observatory, petitioned against the definition. Others have supported the IAU, for example Mike Brown, the astronomer who discovered Eris.

Public reception to the IAU decision was mixed. A resolution introduced in the California State Assembly facetiously called the IAU decision a "scientific heresy". The New Mexico House of Representatives passed a resolution in honor of Clyde Tombaugh, the discoverer of Pluto and a longtime resident of that state, that declared that Pluto will always be considered a planet while in New Mexican skies and that March 13, 2007, was Pluto Planet Day.

The Illinois Senate passed a similar resolution in 2009 on the basis that Tombaugh was born in Illinois. The resolution asserted that Pluto was "unfairly downgraded to a 'dwarf' planet" by the IAU." Some members of the public have also rejected the change, citing the disagreement within the scientific community on the issue, or for sentimental reasons, maintaining that they have always known Pluto as a planet and will continue to do so regardless of the IAU decision.

In 2006, in its 17th annual words-of-the-year vote, the American Dialect Society voted plutoed as the word of the year. To "pluto" is to "demote or devalue someone or something".

SOURCE

Many people up in arms about it, right down to the government level and ... hey ... who cares?

Science rules, doesn't it?

I'd be much more worried about governments rigging anything than scientific conferences doing it. So people want Pluto to be a planet instead of a dwarf-planet. Big whoop. It's... man, I can't even say the tame thing I want to say since I'll still break forum rules, but put simply: it's dumb.

Pluto is an object in space 5.06 BILLION kilometres away from Earth. I could not give two squits if it was a planet, a dwarf-planet, a trapezoid (thought that would be cool) or a rock that looks like your avatar. You're making a mountain out of a molehill. And why? Just because you can.

 

[AV1611VET]

I'd be much more worried about governments rigging anything than scientific conferences doing it. So people want Pluto to be a planet instead of a dwarf-planet. Big whoop. It's... man, I can't even say the tame thing I want to say since I'll still break forum rules, but put simply: it's dumb.

Yup.

Science -- even rigged science -- breeds contempt.

Pluto is an object in space 5.06 BILLION kilometres away from Earth. I could not give two squits if it was a planet, a dwarf-planet, a trapezoid (thought that would be cool) or a rock that looks like your avatar.

The IAU did though.

So much so, that they tarnished themselves to do it.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill.

But not California, Illinois, New Mexico,* Alan Stern, et alii?

* If you live in New Mexico, Pluto IS our ninth planet, per resolution of the state senate.

And why?

To expose Satan's infrastructure.

Just because you can.

Science has degraded the morals of this country, possibly beyond its point of no return.

We are now a polluted nation.

Jeremiah 3:2 Lift up thine eyes unto the high places, and see where thou hast not been lien with. In the ways hast thou sat for them, as the Arabian in the wilderness; and thou hast polluted the land with thy whoredoms and with thy wickedness.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Yup.

Science -- even rigged science -- breeds contempt.

Not in the slightest. You need to stop blaming your boogeyman view of science for basic human nature.

The IAU did though.

So much so, that they tarnished themselves to do it.

But it's still just a rock in space, the existence of which has no actual bearing on Earth nor has its change had any actual ramifications for life on erth.

But not California, Illinois, New Mexico,* Alan Stern, et alii?

* If you live in New Mexico, Pluto IS our ninth planet, per resolution of the state senate.

No, it is making a mountain out of a molehill, and if you need to use the senate to say something is a planet or not, then I worry about what your state deems important.

To expose Satan's infrastructure.

And you're doing a wonderful job at it... no. Not at all. You're doing nothing of the story.

Science has degraded the morals of this country, possibly beyond its point of no return.

HAHAHAHA! Really? Realy?!

We are now a polluted nation.

See above for my response to this.

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Why did I start that? He's not going to shut up about it now.

 

[AV1611VET]

But it's still just a rock in space, the existence of which has no actual bearing on Earth nor has its change had any actual ramifications for life on earth.

Ya -- as long as McDonald's keeps serving up french fries.

What's that saying that comes to mind?

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist

Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist

Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist

Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew

Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

 

[Warden_of_the_Storm]

Ya -- as long as McDonald's keeps serving up french fries.

What's that saying that comes to mind?

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist

Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist

Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist

Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew

Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me

Oh wow.

WOW!

AV, my estimation of you has sunk MUCH lower than it already has. You, in your strange, Don Quixote-esque, desire to protect Pluto are, in no way shape or form, comparable to those persecuted by THE FREAKING NAZIS!

 

[AV1611VET]

Why did I start that? He's not going to shut up about it now.

Talking to yourself?

I'm fond of saying:

There's nothing wrong with talking to yourself.
And there's nothing wrong with answering yourself.
And there's even nothing wrong with arguing with yourself.
But when you start saying, "Okay, you two, knock it off!" -- now you've got a problem.

 

[AV1611VET]

AV, my estimation of you has sunk MUCH lower than it already has. You, in your strange, Don Quixote-esque, desire to protect Pluto are, in no way shape or form, comparable to those persecuted by THE FREAKING NAZIS!

Figures you'd take what I said that way.

I almost edited that part about the Jews out, but I though you'd see the forest.

I guess not.