Evolution Demographics

rusmeister

A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian
Dec 9, 2005
10,407
5,026
Eastern Europe
Visit site
✟435,770.00
Country
Montenegro
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
He said that, " you're hard-pressed to find any patriarch, major bishop, or prominent clergyman worth his salt who is in favor of evolution". This is manifestly false.

I think nearly anyone you could name is someone of the last couple of generations (1970-ish - present). Such people are moderns, but they are not generally saints or fathers. In 200 years, some of them may be. But by then, the scientific views they supported will very probably be outdated, anyway, and be the most discounted things among whatever they said.

The authority behind all of this is one that has set itself up - or been accepted - to contradict the traditional teachings of the Church, which are not "protestant" or products of the "Reformation", but have been broadly held by nearly every figure of history until literally a few generations ago, when Darwinism began toi take hold. To try to say that most evolutionary science is unrelated to and disconnected from Darwinism is disingenious, to say the least. And to try to suggest that evolutionary views were held at all, let alone had serious coinage in the Church prior to the late nineteenth century, is just plain a lie.

So it is certain that all supporters of these ideas are modern for all practical purposes, and that they may not look to support in Church history for their views. In every case we come back to the idea that "the Church and fathers were wrong; didn't know any better, etc etc" though they never taught scientific dogma but always theological truth connected to definite events.

It is this that, whether you admit it or no, is a challenge to Church authority to teach us. To say that it may be in error in its understandings of truth - note, NOT in the physical sciences, but in truth. It sets up the individual modern as someone with authority to correct the Church, to say that the fathers were wrong, to say that "Now we know better". This is heresy. The admittance of the principle allows any and all manner of change to be inserted into Church teaching, even if you intend no such thing. The very fact that you do it legitimizes someone else who disagrees with you doing it. You may not like them doing it, but you started it by doing it yourself. By saying "I may correct the Church"; "I know better than the consensus of the fathers and saints, living and dead."

I don't care if the Earth is ten thousand or ten billion years old. But I care very much whether people IN the Church think they may correct the consensus of the Church over space and time - especially time, for any one generation may be led astray, as I believe ours HAS. (And we are not the first.)
 
Upvote 0

jckstraw72

Doin' that whole Orthodox thing
Dec 9, 2005
10,160
1,143
39
South Canaan, PA
Visit site
✟64,422.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Republican
Debates will be really interesting if, 100 years from now, both sides can draw from the saints of the church to support their case.
methinks having such varying theologies would disqualify one of those groups as Saints ... Saints aren't in the business of floating their opinions ... as St. Silouan says, they give us what they have been given by God.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,563
20,082
41
Earth
✟1,467,220.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
He said that, " you're hard-pressed to find any patriarch, major bishop, or prominent clergyman worth his salt who is in favor of evolution". This is manifestly false.

I was just listing some who do, as put earlier, espouse such "crap." if you can find any saints or holy elders who contradict these and actually show a variant opinion, I am all eyes.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,563
20,082
41
Earth
✟1,467,220.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
the Fathers teach that God's creative act of each day was instantaneous and simultaneous - that is, for example, every land animal came into existence at precisely the same instantaneous moment. The Fathers see this as a great display of God's power, and counter that to think that God took a long time to create is to rob Him of His awesome power. St. Ephraim the Syrian even says it is IMPERMISSIBLE to interpret the days as anything other than 24 hours. No, it is not YEC who do not take God and the Saints seriously.

plus of all the folks that post on here, I am pretty sure that you are the only one with the M Div, with honors in patristics, and who wrote his thesis on Genesis.
 
Upvote 0

Columba7

Newbie
Apr 7, 2014
84
9
✟15,249.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
methinks having such varying theologies would disqualify one of those groups as Saints ... Saints aren't in the business of floating their opinions ... as St. Silouan says, they give us what they have been given by God.
Well, I guess you will have an easy way of knowing when Eastern Orthodoxy falls into heresy, then.
 
Upvote 0

gzt

The age of the Earth is 4.54 ± 0.07 billion years
Jul 14, 2004
10,600
1,873
Abolish ICE
Visit site
✟118,146.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
A list of a bishop and a couple prominent priests and theologians: Fr John Romanides, Fr Tom Hopko, Bishop Kallistos Ware, to list three. Of course, they don't count, since any true "major bishop, or prominent clergyman worth his salt" thinks evolution is inconsistent with the book of Genesis.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,563
20,082
41
Earth
✟1,467,220.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
A list of a bishop and a couple prominent priests and theologians: Fr John Romanides, Fr Tom Hopko, Bishop Kallistos Ware, to list three. Of course, they don't count, since any true "major bishop, or prominent clergyman worth his salt" thinks evolution is inconsistent with the book of Genesis.

well, I wouldn't want to call any of them out and I think all are worth their salt (I think that comment was made in the heat of the moment), since I have only actually met one (Fr Hopko) and I have nothing but respect for him. but even then, why trust them over those we know to be saints, like St Nektarios of Aegina? I love a LOT of the stuff Fr Hopko has written, but should we really take his advice if it contradicts with someone like St Nektarios or St John Maximovitch?
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,563
20,082
41
Earth
✟1,467,220.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
This isn't the thread for debate - this is the thread for demographics. And, I suppose, refuting the claim that no prominent etc etc.

well yes, like I said, I think that was a heat of the moment comment. there are many respected clergy and laity that do believe in it.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Aug 27, 2012
2,126
573
United States of America
✟41,078.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
"plus of all the folks that post on here, I am pretty sure that you are the only one with the M Div, with honors in patristics, and who wrote his thesis on Genesis."

That doesn't automatically mean he necessarily knows what he's talking about...
__________________
 
  • Like
Reactions: gzt
Upvote 0

rusmeister

A Russified American Orthodox Chestertonian
Dec 9, 2005
10,407
5,026
Eastern Europe
Visit site
✟435,770.00
Country
Montenegro
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
Well, I guess you will have an easy way of knowing when Eastern Orthodoxy falls into heresy, then.

Do you think there is no such thing as heresy? That it cannot be brought among us in our time?
 
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,428
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟160,220.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
A list of a bishop and a couple prominent priests and theologians: Fr John Romanides, Fr Tom Hopko, Bishop Kallistos Ware, to list three. Of course, they don't count, since any true "major bishop, or prominent clergyman worth his salt" thinks evolution is inconsistent with the book of Genesis.
I'd add St. Augustine (especially when seeing where he stands in regards to the issue of science) and a couple of others. Origen, a third-century philosopher and theologian from Alexandria, Egypt—one of the great intellectual centers of the ancient world—provides an example of early Christian thought on creation. Best known for On First Principles and Against Celsus, Origen presented the main doctrines of Christianity and defended them against pagan accusations....also opposing the idea that the creation story should be interpreted as a literal and historical account of how God created the world. It's not hidden that there were other voices before Origen who advocated more symbolic interpretations of the creation story. And St. Augustine of Hippo, a bishop in North Africa during the early fifth century, was another central figure of the period. For Augustine authored dozens of other works, several of which focus on Genesis 1–2. In The Literal Meaning of Genesis, Augustine argues that the first two chapters of Genesis are written to suit the understanding of the people at that time.

There were other saints besides that....for in example, Gregory of Nyssa (331-396) taught that the Creation was potential - that God imparted to matter its fundamental laws and properties, but that the objects and completed forms of the Universe then developed gradually, under their own steam, out of primordial chaos. St. Gregory of Nyssa in Apologetic Treatise on the Hexaemeron said " ... all things were virtually in the first divine impulse for creation, existing as it were in a kind of spermatic potency, sent forth for the genesis of all things. For individual things did not then exist actually." There was an excellent review on the issue seen in the article entitled How would Gregory of Nyssa have understood evolutionism?..and the other being OrthodoxyToday.org | Genesis, Creation and Evolution


But as you noted, there are plenty of Bishops/Priests today on the issue who are not against evolution.

Moreover, I must say that there's something highly inconsistent speaking of "What early church saints supported the issue of evolution?!" as if that is what ultimately settles the issue when the bottom line is that the saints never made themselves out to be the final word on ALL issues of life. There were issues we deal with today that they DID NOT have to wrestle with since those ideas were not present to the full degree as they are with us today - those things they did speak on, we do take into account and appreciate where they wrestled on the matter. But on certain things they were silent and NEVER made an issue of law (as in saying "All must believe this in order to honor the Lord"), we have no right to condemn others on when they disagree. The Church was very diverse on many issues and even creation was one of them - with the language meaning things differently than how many see it today in a 20th/21st century perspective.

If bringing in the issue of "That's heresy!!!" - then all things need to be tackled that they did not deal with explicitly. From techonology to democracy/voting and multiple other issues that tend to infer stances on from the early saints even though they didn't speak specifically on them. Some things they considered a heresy changed over time and we no longer see it as such today - but from their perspective, it'd still be strong on the matter.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,428
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟160,220.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Only 6% YEC - I guess their noise level misrepresents their popularity:)
We was wondering on the Old Earth Creationists (where I tend to lean, opposite of YEC) - who don't support evolution and yet hold to things supported by evolutionists like the Earth Being very, VERY, old....as well as God being able to replenish the earth (as Psalm 104 says) and create new species anytime he wishes.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,563
20,082
41
Earth
✟1,467,220.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
"plus of all the folks that post on here, I am pretty sure that you are the only one with the M Div, with honors in patristics, and who wrote his thesis on Genesis."

That doesn't automatically mean he necessarily knows what he's talking about...
__________________

no, I think the fact that he is the one that almost always backs up what he says with quotes by the Church Fathers and Scripture shows he knows what he is talking about. no one here has referenced them when speaking about Genesis like he has.
 
Upvote 0

jckstraw72

Doin' that whole Orthodox thing
Dec 9, 2005
10,160
1,143
39
South Canaan, PA
Visit site
✟64,422.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Republican
St. Augustine is not in the slightest compatible with evolution. For example, he says:

[FONT=&quot]City of God[/FONT][FONT=&quot], [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Book 13.21:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]On this account some allegorize all that concerns Paradise itself, where the first men, the parents of the human race, are, according to the truth of holy Scripture, recorded to have been; and they understand all its trees and fruit-bearing plants as virtues and habits of life, ...as if they had no existence in the external world, but were only so spoken of or related for the sake of spiritual meanings. As if there could not be a real terrestrial Paradise! As if there never existed these two women, Sarah and Hagar, nor the two sons who were born to Abraham, the one of the bond woman, the other of the free, because the apostle says that in them the two covenants were prefigured; or as if water never flowed from the rock when Moses struck it, because therein Christ can be seen in a figure, as the same apostle says, "Now that rock was Christ!"No one, then, denies that Paradise may signify the life of the blessed; its four rivers, the four virtues, prudence, fortitude, temperance, and justice; its trees, all useful knowledge; its fruits, the customs of the godly; its tree of life, wisdom herself, the mother of all good; and the tree of the knowledge of good ...and evil, the experience of a broken commandment. The punishment which God appointed was in itself, a just, and therefore a good thing; but man's experience of it is not good.. . .These and similar allegorical interpretations may be suitably put upon Paradise without giving offence to any one, while yet we believe the strict truth of the history, confirmed by its circumstantial narrative of facts.[/FONT]

and

[FONT=&quot]On Genesis: The Refutation of the Manichees [/FONT][FONT=&quot]2.3:[/FONT]
So then, this whole text must first be discussed in terms of history, and then in terms of prophecy. In terms of history deeds and events are being related, in terms of prophecy future events are being foretold. One should not look with a jaundiced eye, to be sure, on anyone who wants to take everything that is said here absolutely literally, and who can avoid blasphemy in doing so, and present everything as in accordance with Catholic faith; on the contrary one should hold up such a person as an outstanding and holy admirable understander of the text.
 
Upvote 0

ArmyMatt

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Jan 26, 2007
41,563
20,082
41
Earth
✟1,467,220.00
Country
United States
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Married
It was also intemperate of me to call it "crap" in the other thread.

I had a feeling, that didn't sound like you normally are gzt, and I know these discussions can become heated (and I am sure you won't have to go many posts back to find me saying something intemperate)
 
Upvote 0

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,428
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟160,220.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
St. Augustine is not in the slightest compatible with evolution.
...
[FONT=&quot]On Genesis: The Refutation of the Manichees [/FONT][FONT=&quot]2.3:[/FONT]
So then, this whole text must first be discussed in terms of history, and then in terms of prophecy. In terms of history deeds and events are being related, in terms of prophecy future events are being foretold. One should not look with a jaundiced eye, to be sure, on anyone who wants to take everything that is said here absolutely literally, and who can avoid blasphemy in doing so, and present everything as in accordance with Catholic faith; on the contrary one should hold up such a person as an outstanding and holy admirable understander of the text.
I am aware of what Augustine said on that specific issue and the quote you shared.

Nonetheless, we also know that Augustine said far more than that - multiple times. What Augustine noted was that there should not be bashing of others who seek to take all things within the text LITERALLY since they are doing so to the Lord and also have a heart to understand the text admirably - God smiles on that and they have room for their views. However, Augustine was not and has NEVER advocated a mindset claiming that only those taking the text of Genesis literally are the ones who qualify for understanding it - that'd be counter to his own previous stances BEFORE he said that and afterward. He was very open on certain things. Commitment to a literal interpretation does not solve all problems, nor does it lock the exegete into only one reading of the text. ..and Augustine was painfully aware of the difficulties of the text.

As he noted in The Literal Meaning of Genesis:

I have worked out and presented the statements of the book of Genesis in a variety of ways according to my ability; and, in interpreting words that have been written obscurely for the purpose of stimulating our thought, I have not rashly taken my stand on one side against a rival interpretation which might possibly be better. I have thought that each one, in keeping with his powers of understanding, should choose the interpretation that he can grasp. Where he cannot understand Holy Scripture, let him glorify " and fear for himself. (pp. 43-44)


He further observes that "It is a laborious and difficult task for the powers of our human understanding to see clearly the meaning of the sacred writer in the matter of these six days" (p. 103). That's RADICALLY different from his attitude than those who, disregarding the labors of many of the church's greatest minds over the past two millennia, have convinced themselves that the fundamental interpretation of Genesis 1-3 is perfectly obvious.

Thus, there's is NO conclusion whatsoever that Augustine was against the concept of evolution anymore than he'd be against God's ability to take dust in Exodus and turn it into gnats. We have to deal with the man fully in context and not based on our prior slants - and I don't intend on going into depth here on the matter since here and #277 already had that occur.

As noted before, according to him, all things were created on the first day. Subsequently God created pregnant ideas that Augustine called rationes seminales, which were imbedded in creation. Some only came to fruition afterwards, even, it might be argued, after the Fall. For Augustine , he thought that God could even have catered for the eventuality of the Fall of man into sin and the subsequent curse.

Excerpt from Augustine's "On Genesis" Book II "Question of the phase in which the moon was made" 15, 30
"God, after all is the author and founder of things in their actual natures. Now whatever any single thing may in some way or other produce and unfold by its natural development through periods of time that are suited to it, it contained it beforehand as something hidden, if not in specific forms and bodily mass, at least by the force and reckoning of nature, unless of course a tree, void of fruit and stripped of its leaves throughout the winter, is then to be called imperfect, or unless again at its origins, when it had still not yet borne any fruit, its nature was also imperfect. It is not only about the tree, but about its seed also that this could not rightly be said; there everything that with the passage of time is somehow or other going to appear is already latent in invisible ways. Although, if God were to make anything imperfect, which he then would himself bring to perfection, what would be reprehensible about such an idea? But you would be quite within your rights to disapprove if what had been begun by him were said to be completed and perfected by another."
The philosophical underpinnings of evolution are present, with others long noting that it should be remembered that we are not talking about changes from one kind to another... but merely a perfection of an existing, undifferentiated type to a more differentiated one.

Augustine argues that the first creation account (Genesis 1:1-2:3) cannot be interpreted in isolation but must be set alongside the second creation account (Genesis 2:4-25), as well as every other statement about the creation found in Scripture. For example, Augustine suggests that Psalm 33:6-9 speaks of an instantaneous creation of the world through God’s creative Word, while John 5:17 points to a God who is still active within creation. Specifically, God created the world in an instant but continues to develop and mold it, even to the present day. Consequently, this influenced Augustine to suggest that the six days of creation are not to be understood chronologically. Rather, they are a way of categorizing God’s work of creation and they provide a framework for the classification of the elements of the created world so that they might be better understood and appreciated.

And just as it is with evolutionists - or with those who are Old Earth Creationists - Augustine felt that things took place over a great amount of TIME. Augustine repeatedly stresses that the six days are not six successive ordinary days AND that They have nothing to do with time. For him, this is unequivocally the case for the first three days before the making of the sun, but he is equally inclined to say the same of the last three days. The days are repeatedly claimed to be arranged according to causes, order, and logic. For example, as he said in "The Literal Meaning of Genesis" :

"These seven days of our time, although like the same days of creation in name and in numbering, follow one another in succession and mark off the division of time, but those first six days occurred in a form unfamiliar to us as intrinsic principles within things created" (p. 125)
.

For Augustine, the days of creation "are beyond the experience and knowledge of us mortal earthbound men ... we must bear in mind that these days indeed recall the days of creation but without in any way being really similar to them" (p. 135). Further, as Augustine noted

"we should not think of those days as solar days.... He made that which gave time its beginning, as He made all things together, disposing them in an order based not on intervals of time but on causal connections" (p. 154)
.

Also,

"But in the beginning He created all things together and completed the whole in six days, when six times he brought the 'day' which he made before the things which He made, not in a succession of periods of time but in a plan made known according to causes" (pp. 175-176).

"The reason is that those who cannot understand the meaning of the text, He created all things together, cannot arrive at the meaning of Scripture unless the narrative proceeds slowly step by step" (p. 142).



St. Augustine of Hippo, from his work The Literal Meaning of Genesis, written in about AD 415, noted the following specifically:

Let us suppose that in explaining the words, “And God said, ‘Let there be light,’ and light was made,” one man thinks that it was material light that was made, and another that it was spiritual. As to the actual existence of “spiritual light” in a spiritual creature, our faith leaves no doubt; as to the existence of material light, celestial or supercelestial, even existing before the heavens, a light which could have been followed by night, there will be nothing in such a supposition contrary to the faith until unerring truth gives the lie to it. And if that should happen, this teaching was never in Holy Scripture but was an opinion proposed by man in his ignorance.

On the other hand, if reason should prove that this opinion is unquestionably true, it will still be uncertain whether this sense was intended by the sacred writer when he used the words quoted above, or whether he meant something else no less true. And if the general drift of the passage shows that the sacred writer did not intend this teaching, the other, which he did intend, will not thereby be false; indeed, it will be true and more worth knowing. On the other hand, if the tenor of the words of Scripture does not militate against our taking this teaching as the mind of the writer, we shall still have to enquire whether he could not have meant something else besides. And if we find that he could have meant something else also, it will not be clear which of the two meanings he intended. And there is no difficulty if he is thought to have wished both interpretations if both are supported by clear indications in the context.

Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world, about the motion and orbit of the stars and even their size and relative positions, about the predictable eclipses of the sun and moon, the cycles of the years and the seasons, about the kinds of animals, shrubs, stones, and so forth, and this knowledge he holds to as being certain from reason and experience. Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance in a Christian and laugh it to scorn. The shame is not so much that an ignorant individual is derided, but that people outside the household of the faith think our sacred writers held such opinions, and, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil, the writers of our Scripture are criticized and rejected as unlearned men.

If they find a Christian mistaken in a field which they themselves know well and hear him maintaining his foolish opinions about our books, how are they going to believe those books in matters concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven, when they think their pages are full of falsehoods on facts which they themselves have learnt from experience and the light of reason?

Reckless and incompetent expounders of holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books. For then, to defend their utterly foolish and obviously untrue statements, they will try to call upon Holy Scripture for proof and even recite from memory many passages which they think support their position, although they understand neither what they say nor the things about which they make assertion​

Augustine, even though his work was entitled The Literal Meaning of Genesis, does not read Genesis 1 in the same “literal” way that modern young-Earth creationists do. For Augustine believed that the creation was an instantaneous event rather than being spread out over six literal days, and that the six days of Genesis 1 were a literary structure rather than a statement of the order or timing of events. He was a deep thinker, who was in no way influenced by modern understandings of the age of the universe....and modern interpretations that understand Genesis as not requiring a 6000-year old Earth are not just forcing a modern interpretation on the text. For the idea that Genesis doesn’t tell us how old the Earth is could be something that flows out of the text.

Moreover, Augustine believed that non-Christians were perfectly capable of understanding the world, and he was convinced that whatever the Bible teaches, it won’t contradict the world as it really is.

It doesn't take rocket science to realize that neither Augustine nor his age believed in the evolution of species - with the main reason being that there were no reasons at that time for anyone to believe in this notion. Nonetheless, Augustine developed a theological framework that could accommodate this later scientific development, though his theological commitments would prevent him from accepting any idea of the development of the universe as a random or lawless process. For this reason Augustine would have opposed the strict Darwinian notion of random variations, insisting that God’s providence is deeply involved throughout, directing a process in manners and ways that lie beyond full human comprehension. Again, Augustine affirmed that Creation has evolved and continues to evolve, though not driven by random natural processes, as affirmed by classical Darwinism.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Gxg (G²)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)
Site Supporter
Jan 25, 2009
19,765
1,428
Good Ol' South...
Visit site
✟160,220.00
Faith
Oriental Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Others
Debates will be really interesting if, 100 years from now, both sides can draw from the saints of the church to support their case.
It should be a trip...
 
Upvote 0