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Evolution conflict and division

Amo2

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Some articles addressing out of place fossils as it were.






 
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Job 33:6

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Some articles addressing out of place fossils as it were.






And this is simply misinformation. For example, the first article states:

“Dinosaurs are supposed to have evolved into birds. But Confuciusornis was a true beaked bird that pre-dates the ‘feathered’ dinosaurs that it allegedly came from. It also has been found in the stomach of a dinosaur.”

But in fact, Confuciusornis dates to roughly 125–120 million years ago, while feathered dinosaurs date back earlier, such as Sinosauropteryx from about 130–125 million years ago, Caudipteryx from 125–124 million years ago, and Anchiornis from about 160 million years ago in the Late Jurassic.

Or from your second link, a statement is made:
"However, the presence of this unique fossil can no longer be used to reliably identify a rock as Cambrian. In addition to the Ordovician anomalocaridid discovered in Morocco, a lone fossil of an obvious anomalocaridid (although it was not identified as such) was described from Devonian strata in Germany."

Likewise this is just misinformation. There isn't anything out of place about an anomalocaridid in the Devonian. It's not as though you're finding a devonian tetrapod in the Cambrian before it's ancestors. Rather the opposite is being described in which a group of animals lived beyond just the Cambrian. Which is a common occurrence in the fossil record. There isn't anything unusual about this, despite the articles claims.
 
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Amo2

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And this is simply misinformation. For example, the first article states:

“Dinosaurs are supposed to have evolved into birds. But Confuciusornis was a true beaked bird that pre-dates the ‘feathered’ dinosaurs that it allegedly came from. It also has been found in the stomach of a dinosaur.”

But in fact, Confuciusornis dates to roughly 125–120 million years ago, while feathered dinosaurs date back earlier, such as Sinosauropteryx from about 130–125 million years ago, Caudipteryx from 125–124 million years ago, and Anchiornis from about 160 million years ago in the Late Jurassic.

Or from your second link, a statement is made:
"However, the presence of this unique fossil can no longer be used to reliably identify a rock as Cambrian. In addition to the Ordovician anomalocaridid discovered in Morocco, a lone fossil of an obvious anomalocaridid (although it was not identified as such) was described from Devonian strata in Germany."

Likewise this is just misinformation. There isn't anything out of place about an anomalocaridid in the Devonian. It's not as though you're finding a devonian tetrapod in the Cambrian before it's ancestors. Rather the opposite is being described in which a group of animals lived beyond just the Cambrian. Which is a common occurrence in the fossil record. There isn't anything unusual about this, despite the articles claims.

Quoted article below from link above.

Ten Reasons Why Birds Are Not Living Dinosaurs​


Editor’s note: “Are birds derived directly from advanced dinosaurs, or are they closely related dinosaur cousins?” That is a fascinating question taken up in a recent book, Romancing the Birds and Dinosaurs, by Alan Feduccia, an evolutionary biologist at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. In inimitable style, geneticist Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig of the Max Planck Institute for Plant Breeding Research responds in a review that is itself an amazing piece of scholarship. As our friend Dr. Lönnig notes, in the course of his career, it is “probably the longest book review that I have written.” In highlighting a new interview with Lönnig, mathematician Granville Sewell noted yesterday, “To those who say intelligent design advocates are only critical of Darwinism because they are just not sufficiently versed in genetics and evolutionary theory, I have a two-word (or rather three?) reply: Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig.” And that is exactly right. Read the whole review here. However, if you’d like to cut to the chase, here is Lönnig’s brief summation (citations omitted). From, “Summing Up Some Key Points: Why Birds Are Not Living Dinosaurs”:

(1) (a) Information-generating DNA “macromutations,” i.e., genetic saltations, producing in just one step entirely new synorganized (specified and/or irreducibly) complex biological structures due to “accidentally coordinated” substitutions of many nucleotides in many genes, as well as the creation of completely/wholly/fully new genes and further novel functional DNA sequences — and what is more — (b) mutations by random changes in the codes besides the genetic code (epigenetic, RNA splicing code, sugar code, membrane code, bioelectric code) generating substantial new information — altogether leading to macroevolutionary alterations bridging the gaps between genera, families, orders, etc., have never been observed. They are so utterly improbable that an evolutionist’s postulation of such positive macromutations is tantamount to the acceptance of miracles (“a miracle is an event that should appear impossible to a Darwinian in view of its ultra-cosmological improbability within the framework of his own theory” — Schützenberger). “They [saltations] have proven themselves utterly sterile pseudo-solutions and are unanimously rejected by those who have a grasp of modern evolutionary theory and of modern genetics” (Mayr). As for the teleological implications of positive macromutations, see Gould above.

Though we cannot count on positive macromutations for the origin of synorganized new structures and functions, strong saltations in phenotypes due to losses-of-function mutations appear to be quite common especially in island populations— not least in birds (see examples above). Such losses of functions cannot, however, bridge the gap between dinosaurs and birds. Nevertheless they may explain how birds could have lost their flight abilities and why secondary flightless birds have probably, but unjustifiably so, been confused with dinosaurs on their evolutionary way to birds (Feduccia).


(2) Gradualism with its “innumerable slight variations,” “extremely slight variations,” and “infinitesimally small inherited variations,” etc., by mutations, which “have only slight or even invisible effects on the phenotype” (Mayr) has also been found to be totally invalid/impotent/baseless in order to explain the origin of synorganized new structures and primary species. Gradualism’s postulates are in severe/utmost/extreme contradiction to the paleontological facts — as noted by many paleontologists, past and present.

(3) Natural selection can explain “the survival of the fittest but not the arrival of the fittest.” “Can the struggle for existence create? It can and must eradicate, hence kill. But it can’t create anything. Just as a sieve cannot create new grains, but can only sift the existing ones” (Nilsson).

(4) Cladistics: “…among the major problems is that convergence [is] a predominant phenomenon in vertebrates” — as has also recently been analyzed by biologist Reinhard Junker in his paper “Vogelmerkmale bei Dinosauriern Vorläuferstadien oder Konvergenzen?” Studium Integrale, Oktober 2020, pp. 68-77 (cladistic systematics presupposed).

(5) Dollo’s law: “[A]n organism cannot return, even partially, to a former state already realized in the series of its ancestors.” The hypothesis that dinosaurs gave rise to birds implies a massive violation of that law: The extraordinarily short dinosaur arms — derived from much longer ones — would again have been strongly re-elongated for birds. However, even in extant birds “there is no example of a secondarily flightless bird having re-elongated its wings and therefore having re-evolved flight; and one can assume the same would apply to dinosaurs.”

(6) Bird and dinosaur hand: “Our Science paper conclusively demonstrated that by any embryological yardstick, the avian hand was composed of the middle three digits, II-III-IV” (p. 142) whereas in theropods it is I-II-III. There is no obvious selective advantage for the homeotic frame-shift hypothesis, “and also if such a dramatic change were commonplace it would negate the use of paleontological cladistics based almost entirely on skeletal morphology to resolve phylogenies” (Feduccia).

(7) Topsy-turvy phylogeny: As shown in detail above, the phylogenetic sequence of the dinosaur to bird hypothesis starting with Sinosauropteryx (which should thus be the oldest but is from the Lower Cretaceous) is to an astonishing degree in discord with the dates usually given for the paleontological record.

(8) “Archaeopteryx remains a volant bird by almost any anatomical yardstick.”

(9) The abrupt appearance of all modern bird families and orders (bird evolution’s “big bang”) being even richer and more comprehensive in Eocene strata than they are today speaks for intelligent/ingenious design (on the other hand, “infinitesimally small inherited variations” and genetic saltations are equally improbable).

(10) “De Beer’s axiom, I believe, still holds: if it has feathers and avian flight wings, it’s a bird” (italics by Feduccia, 2020, p. 312).
 
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Amo2

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And this is simply misinformation. For example, the first article states:

“Dinosaurs are supposed to have evolved into birds. But Confuciusornis was a true beaked bird that pre-dates the ‘feathered’ dinosaurs that it allegedly came from. It also has been found in the stomach of a dinosaur.”

But in fact, Confuciusornis dates to roughly 125–120 million years ago, while feathered dinosaurs date back earlier, such as Sinosauropteryx from about 130–125 million years ago, Caudipteryx from 125–124 million years ago, and Anchiornis from about 160 million years ago in the Late Jurassic.

Or from your second link, a statement is made:
"However, the presence of this unique fossil can no longer be used to reliably identify a rock as Cambrian. In addition to the Ordovician anomalocaridid discovered in Morocco, a lone fossil of an obvious anomalocaridid (although it was not identified as such) was described from Devonian strata in Germany."

Likewise this is just misinformation. There isn't anything out of place about an anomalocaridid in the Devonian. It's not as though you're finding a devonian tetrapod in the Cambrian before it's ancestors. Rather the opposite is being described in which a group of animals lived beyond just the Cambrian. Which is a common occurrence in the fossil record. There isn't anything unusual about this, despite the articles claims.

Quotes below from link above.

Redefinitions​

Dr. McLain and his colleagues have also considered questioning the meaning of the terms dinosaur and bird: “We must ask what the terms birds and dinosaurs actually mean, rather than reflexively say that ‘birds’ are--or are not--‘dinosaurs.’”2 That approach of questioning those terms, we claim, relies on evolutionary ideas and not on the careful analysis of the evidence or Scripture. And not only have YEE assertions borrowed the definitions of dinosaur and bird from an evolutionary perspective but also that of the word feather. Consequently, we have determined that they have interpreted the evidence of the so-called feathered dinosaurs through an evolutionary perspective.

Dinosaurs are land-dwelling animals. That means they were made on day six of creation (Genesis 1:24–25). Almost all birds are flying creatures to some degree, and they all have wings. Therefore, they most likely were all made on day five (Genesis 1:20–22). By saying or agreeing with the evolutionary claim that birds are dinosaurs or are most similar to dinosaurs, Dr. McLain is mixing groups made on different days of creation. Further, he is lumping groups that Adam would have been able to distinguish. Remember in Genesis 2that God brought the animals to Adam to name. This implies that Adam was capable of both naming them and distinguishing between them by sight. There is no reason why dinosaurs and birds should be considered similar unless it is presumed a priori that some dinosaurs had feathers. If that assumption is rejected (as it should be), there is little similarity between an Allosaurus or Stegosaurus and a penguin or cardinal. This fits with the scriptural implication that Adam could visually distinguish between groups.

Another significant problem with arguing that birds are dinosaurs is the cultural context of the claim. While Dr. McLain may think that making the above statement does not imply evolution, the public is inundated daily with evolutionists making the exact same claim. The public knows what an evolutionist means when he claims birds are dinosaurs: that birds evolved from dinosaurs. When they hear Dr. McLain say it, most will still understand it this way as he is making the same claim, although it is more palatable to Christians since it is coming from a young-earth Christian.

Further, Dr. McLain’s statement represents a rhetorical device known as motte and bailey. The motte is the more defensible position, the one harder to criticize, and the one rhetorically retreated to when pressure comes. The bailey is the fertile ground around the motte: a place where ideas can be easily planted. As an example of how this works, social justice activists push critical race theory (CRT) into the public schools—the bailey. Then, when parents object, the activists retreat to the motte and claim to only be teaching about racism, which no one should have a problem with. Dr. McLain is doing something similar here. “Birds are dinosaurs” is the bailey; “birds are more similar to dinosaurs than anything else” is the motte. Unlike the social justice example, Dr. McLain is likely not doing this deliberately or maliciously, but it is the rhetorical device in play nonetheless.

Structural Problems​

Dr. McLain’s primary argument is over whether dinosaurs had feathers. He believes they did and has coauthored several papers making this claim, the most famous of which was published in 2018.3 In this article, Dr. McLain and his coauthors argued from statistical baraminological analysis that there were groups of dinosaurs that were feathered. In so doing, they made some serious methodological errors and ignored the arguments of even evolutionist experts on the topic.4 Now this can be somewhat technical for some, but it needs to be stated. In the feathered dinosaur paper, Dr. McLain et al. made an edit to the baraminology program that had never been done before. They changed a parameter—something that had never been tested—and assumed everything would be fine. While that may be true, without testing, there is no way to know. Further, in baraminological analysis, a tetrahedral-shaped MDS plot is supposed to indicate the dataset is uninformative5 or biased,6 yet multiple plots within this paper show a tetrahedral shape. By precedent in statistical baraminology, at least these sub-datasets should have been rejected. Yet they were not, which brings major problems into their results.

Even laying aside the methodological problems, the claim that dinosaurs had feathers is extremely problematic, yet Dr. McLain is sadly not the only one to make it.7Feathers are highly complex structures. Many of the so-called feathers are not featherlike at all and are best described as “fibers.” Even some evolutionists argue against them being feathers.8 The only way to “make” them feathers is by redefining the word feather.

To confuse matters more, some so-called dinosaurs have unambiguous feathers. That does not mean that dinosaurs have feathers though, because these so-called dinosaurs not only have pennaceous feathers but also possess wing structures capable of either flight or gliding and a tail structure like the ones found in fossil birds—their anatomical structure is not at all like, say, a Tyrannosaurus.9 Therefore, these organisms represent extinct kinds of birds, not dinosaurs.

Using the evolutionary dinosaurian classification, which includes birds, is very problematic and represents an unnecessary ceding of ground to the evolutionary narrative as well as a confusing narrative for the churchgoer. When even members of the evolutionary community question the idea that dinosaurs had feathers with sound, peer-reviewed papers, it begs the question of why some in the creationist community would accept it. The only reason to do so is if some of the same assumptions that drive the evolutionary model are smuggled into the creation model—namely that some dinosaurs had feathers. And for what purpose? If the assumption that some dinosaurs had feathers is removed, the entire evolutionary argument falls away, as does the “young-earth evolution” argument dependent on it.

Dinosaurs had no feathers, and claiming they did actually requires reliance on evolutionary interpretations of fossils that should not be accepted by creationists.
 
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davetaff

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Hi
why cant we jest believe God created why do we have to prove everything if we have to prove everything then we don't believe Gods word but its of the utmost importance that we believe the word of God not try to prove everything he says he is the creator of everything in heaven and earth lets jest believe that and be content.

Love and peace
Dave
 
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Job 33:6

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Amo2

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If I point out misinformation, it's not a solution to simply copy and paste more misinformation.
You simply pointing out what you profess to be misinformation, does not necessarily mean that the information actually is misinformation, either. There are a lot of people that disagree with you regarding what supposedly happened hundreds of millions of years ago. The facts are pretty plain and simple, none of us know the majority of what happened on this planet or anywhere else yesterday, let alone hundreds of millions of years ago. Such is the nature of all the theories regarding even recent history, let alone deep time scenarios. To the extent that a lot of faith is required for both sides of the issue, though only one side is usually willing to admit of such. While the other is extremely confident of their own observations, though even they themselves prove themselves wrong over and over again, in the never ending evolution of the theory of evolution. So be it.
 
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Job 33:6

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You simply pointing out what you profess to be misinformation, does not necessarily mean that the information actually is misinformation, either. There are a lot of people that disagree with you regarding what supposedly happened hundreds of millions of years ago. The facts are pretty plain and simple, none of us know the majority of what happened on this planet or anywhere else yesterday, let alone hundreds of millions of years ago. Such is the nature of all the theories regarding even recent history, let alone deep time scenarios. To the extent that a lot of faith is required for both sides of the issue, though only one side is usually willing to admit of such. While the other is extremely confident of their own observations, though even they themselves prove themselves wrong over and over again, in the never ending evolution of the theory of evolution. So be it.
So what is your counter?

Here is what I said:
And this is simply misinformation. For example, the first article states:

“Dinosaurs are supposed to have evolved into birds. But Confuciusornis was a true beaked bird that pre-dates the ‘feathered’ dinosaurs that it allegedly came from. It also has been found in the stomach of a dinosaur.”

But in fact, Confuciusornis dates to roughly 125–120 million years ago, while feathered dinosaurs date back earlier, such as Sinosauropteryx from about 130–125 million years ago, Caudipteryx from 125–124 million years ago, and Anchiornis from about 160 million years ago in the Late Jurassic.

Is your counter to simply say, the earth is 6,000 years old, therefore all conventional science is wrong?

It's not actually true that confuciosornis predated feathered dinosaurs. Not by any measure known to any field or science. I'm pointing this out as misinformation and you're suggesting that it's not, on what grounds?
 
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Amo2

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So what is your counter?

Here is what I said:
And this is simply misinformation. For example, the first article states:

“Dinosaurs are supposed to have evolved into birds. But Confuciusornis was a true beaked bird that pre-dates the ‘feathered’ dinosaurs that it allegedly came from. It also has been found in the stomach of a dinosaur.”

But in fact, Confuciusornis dates to roughly 125–120 million years ago, while feathered dinosaurs date back earlier, such as Sinosauropteryx from about 130–125 million years ago, Caudipteryx from 125–124 million years ago, and Anchiornis from about 160 million years ago in the Late Jurassic.

Is your counter to simply say, the earth is 6,000 years old, therefore all conventional science is wrong?

It's not actually true that confuciosornis predated feathered dinosaurs. Not by any measure known to any field or science. I'm pointing this out as misinformation and you're suggesting that it's not, on what grounds?

Well yes, if the earth is thousands of years old and not hundreds of millions or billions of years old, then the theory of evolution which depends upon deep time scenarios is wrong. I do not believe evolutionists deep time scenarios at all. Apart from this though, it is still a problem for the theory of evolution when bird fossils are found with or before dinosaurs. As the processes of evolution are supposed to occur over deep time intervals.

Perhaps you have abandoned this idea for far more rapid evolution scenarios, than evolutionists once allowed for. Nevertheless -


Quoted article below from link above. Emphasis is mine.

Chinese scientists discover oldest bird fossils, rewrite history of avian evolution

Chinese scientists have discovered one of the world's oldest bird fossils of Baminornis zhenghensis in East China's Fujian Province, which is also the only confirmed Jurassic avian to date, and found that the body structure of modern birds had already emerged in the Late Jurassic, approximately 150 million years ago, according to a research report published on Thursday.

The research was jointly conducted by the Institute of Vertebrate Paleontology and Paleoanthropology and Fujian Institute of Geological Survey, with their findings published in the academic journal Nature on Thursday.

The study pushes back the appearance of an important avian feature, represented by the pygostyle, by nearly 20 million years.

The fossil, discovered in November 2023, was identified as a bird after one year of restoration and analyses by the research team. Although incomplete, the fossil retains key features, including separate scapulae and coracoids, and most notably, a fully fused pygostyle, a key structural feature in modern birds, according to the China Central Television (CCTV)..............................

The oldest bird currently widely recognized is Archaeopteryx, discovered in Germany and dating back to the Jurassic period, approximately 150 million years ago. However, recent studies have challenged its classification, suggesting it may be more closely related to deinonychosaurian dinosaurs than to the birds, as reported by CCTV.

The discovery of the Baminornis zhenghensis reveals for the first time that the body structure of modern birds appeared in the Jurassic, pushing the origin of birds back to around 172 to 164 million years ago. It is currently the most definitive and only known Jurassic bird, reshaping people's understanding of avian evolution.

Global Times
 
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Job 33:6

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Well yes, if the earth is thousands of years old and not hundreds of millions or billions of years old, then the theory of evolution which depends upon deep time scenarios is wrong. I do not believe evolutionists deep time scenarios at all. Apart from this though, it is still a problem for the theory of evolution when bird fossils are found with or before dinosaurs. As the processes of evolution are supposed to occur over deep time intervals.

Perhaps you have abandoned this idea for far more rapid evolution scenarios, than evolutionists once allowed for. Nevertheless -


Quoted article below from link above. Emphasis is mine.
But these bird fossils are not found before feathered dinosaurs, which is the point. But you can't accept that simply because you're YEC apparently.
 
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Amo2

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More seemingly out of place and time bird fossils defying dino to bird evolutionist scenarios, from an older article.


Article below from link above. Emphasis is mine.

The World's Oldest Bird Fossil

Ask college freshman biology students to name the oldest bird fossil and they’ll probably say the evolutionary icon Archaeopteryx. In that case, you’d hear the wrong answer. The story of which fossil receives the prize for the oldest bird has as many twists as the story of bird evolution itself.

The tale took flight with the 1861 discovery of a lone feather in Germany’s now-famous Solnhofen limestone layers. Just two years later, British anatomist Richard Owen obtained a Solnhofen whole-body fossil with feather impressions for the British Museum. Owen clashed with Charles Darwin by saying that creature changes happen through orderly principles instead of from natural hap-penstance. Both he and Darwin agreed, though, that Archaeopteryx was the world’s oldest bird, and it kept that crown for a century.

It was discovered only two years after the publication of Darwin’s famous book On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, and Darwin promoters soon showcased Archaeopteryx as a missing link. To them it represented mostly a bird with reptilian features still remaining from its supposed evolutionary past. English writer and social commentator H. G. Wells wrote in The Science of Life, “As it is, Archaeopteryx is in its general construction a perfect link between the two great groups of birds and reptiles, though more than half-way to modern birds.”1 Headlines reinforce this same supposed link status today, even though studies continue to show Archaeopteryx was just a bird.

Despite its iconic status, this fossil’s geological position is out of sync with evolution. When we factor in the fossils found in Jurassic System rocks outside Germany, the Jurassic Solnhofen limestones place the extinct bird amidst dinosaur layers. According to an increasingly popular evolutionary tale, an unknown starting reptile evolved into dinosaurs. Then some of those dinosaurs—the theropods—later evolved into birds. Theropods and birds both have three forward-facing toes on each of their two legs, but the similarities essentially end there. Birds balance from their knees, while theropod legs swing from the hips like human legs do.

The evolutionary story assumes that natural processes adjusted all the appropriate theropod bones, muscles, and nerves into a bird system perhaps several times over the 186 million years that supposedly spanned the Triassic, Jurassic, and later Cretaceous rock systems. The total lack of an undisputed transition between hip- and knee-walkers counters the evolutionary tale. Likewise, the discovery of short-lived feather protein remnants in the original Archaeopteryx fossil counters the assumed evolutionary time.

What lower-to-upper fossil sequence would support bird evolution? It needs a reptile-dinosaur-bird sequence from the bottom-up. Ideally, the first bird should occur in Upper Cretaceous layers as the culmination of millions of years of reptilian-ancestor evolution. Instead, most theropods occur in Cretaceous layers far above Archaeopteryx’s Jurassic setting. That’s like having grandparents descend from their grandchildren. Archaeopteryx fossils are positioned too low to tell a perfect evolutionary story. But what if someone found a bona fide bird in even lower layers?

In 1983, paleontologist Sankar Chatterjee described Triassic bird fossils from west Texas. They belonged to a bird kind he named Protoavis. Talk about out of place! The Tecovas Formation from which Chatterjee’s teams collected several Protoavis fossils has an evolutionary age assignment of about 75 million years before Archaeopteryx, which is already too old to fit evolution. No wonder Chatterjee wrote, “From the beginning, Protoavis was received with much skepticism.”

Why do evolutionists treat Protoavis with skepticism? Not because of its anatomy. If anything, Protoavislooked more like modern birds than the later-buried Archaeopteryx, which lacked a large keel bone structure in the middle of its chest. Protoavis had a keel-shaped sternum and a shoulder girdle with the supracoracoideus pulley system typical of modern flyers, all integrated with its toothy mouth and bony tail. In spite of this, Chatterjee’s colleagues reject or ignore Protoavis because it doesn’t fit theropod-to-bird evolution. Chatterjee still believes that reptiles evolved into birds—he just thinks it happened much earlier than most paleontologists assert. But that’s like having great-grandparents descend from their great-grandchildren.

As of August 2019, the opening paragraph of Wikipedia’s description of Archaeopteryx says, “Older potential avialans [birds or supposed evolutionary ancestors of birds] have since been identified, including Anchiornis, Xiaotingia, and Aurornis.” The four-winged Anchiornis must have been a bird because it had feathers. And it must have been deposited only thousands, not millions, of years ago because researchers found feather proteins in it, just like they did in Archaeopteryx. All three of the bird-like fossils listed in Wikipedia predate Archaeopteryx by only 10 million supposed years. Protoavis’ 75 million years must make the website entry’s authors too uncomfortable to even mention.

Dinosaurs did not evolve into birds. The imaginary transitions wouldn’t have been able to fly or walk. How could they even survive? Archaeopteryx was not H. G. Wells’ “perfect link” at all. It had the anatomy of a walking, gliding bird with no in-between features such as pre-feathers or lizard hips. And Archaeopteryx was entombed before its supposed ancestors.

The prize for the oldest fossil bird currently belongs to the Triassic Protoavis. Its high-tech flight anatomy and its low-lying rock layer fly in the face of bird evolution’s twisted tale.
 
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Amo2

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But these bird fossils are not found before feathered dinosaurs, which is the point. But you can't accept that simply because you're YEC apparently.
So your "supposed" feathered dinosaurs are claimed to be more than 160 to 170 million years old? References or links to this "suggested" time frame would help all examine the issue deeper.
 
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Job 33:6

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So your "supposed" feathered dinosaurs are claimed to be more than 160 to 170 million years old? References or links to this "suggested" time frame would help all examine the issue deeper.

Lets review by going back over my prior post.

"This is simply misinformation (your source). For example, your first article states:

Dinosaurs are supposed to have evolved into birds. But Confuciusornis was a true beaked bird that pre-dates the ‘feathered’ dinosaurs that it allegedly came from. It also has been found in the stomach of a dinosaur.”

Lots of feathered dinosaurs predate confuciosornis.

Examples:




"

I could probably list a couple dozen. Hence why it's obvious that you're simply peddling misinformation.

And even if we move the goalpost and discuss different birds dated to 150mya as your more recent article suggests, plenty of feathered dinosaurs predate that still.

I am not aware of any birds dated to 170mya. The article you referenced in your last post noted Baminornis - Wikipedia at 150mya.

If you had a bird dated at 170 mya, I would be surprised.

Yet your sources are way off base, acting like the fossil record is out of order due to birds found much later at 120-130mya. But that obviously doesn't make any sense. Anyone with a basic understanding of the fossil record would identify that falsehood a mile away.
 
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Amo2

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Lets review by going back over my prior post.

"This is simply misinformation (your source). For example, your first article states:

Dinosaurs are supposed to have evolved into birds. But Confuciusornis was a true beaked bird that pre-dates the ‘feathered’ dinosaurs that it allegedly came from. It also has been found in the stomach of a dinosaur.”

Lots of feathered dinosaurs predate confuciosornis.

Examples:




"

I could probably list a couple dozen. Hence why it's obvious that you're simply peddling misinformation.

And even if we move the goalpost and discuss different birds dated to 150mya as your more recent article suggests, plenty of feathered dinosaurs predate that still.

I am not aware of any birds dated to 170mya. The article you referenced in your last post noted Baminornis - Wikipedia at 150mya.

If you had a bird dated at 170 mya, I would be surprised.

Yet your sources are way off base, acting like the fossil record is out of order due to birds found much later at 120-130mya. But that obviously doesn't make any sense. Anyone with a basic understanding of the fossil record would identify that falsehood a mile away.
Notice the following quote from the link provided before it -

The discovery of the Baminornis zhenghensis reveals for the first time that the body structure of modern birds appeared in the Jurassic, pushing the origin of birds back to around 172 to 164 million years ago. It is currently the most definitive and only known Jurassic bird, reshaping people's understanding of avian evolution.

Global Times


Please do supply the information about feathered dinosaurs earlier than the origin of birds suggested in the above quote. Not that I would believe either, but would like to examine the issues regarding them for myself. As I often find that what one evolutionist declares as scientifically proved ages regarding birds and other supposedly evolved creatures, is not agreed upon by others. It is not an issue of course, that I do not believe any of this imagined testimony.
 
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Job 33:6

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Notice the following quote from the link provided before it -




Please do supply the information about feathered dinosaurs earlier than the origin of birds suggested in the above quote. Not that I would believe either, but would like to examine the issues regarding them for myself. As I often find that what one evolutionist declares as scientifically proved ages regarding birds and other supposedly evolved creatures, is not agreed upon by others. It is not an issue of course, that I do not believe any of this imagined testimony.
Well yea, pushing the origin of birds back to that point. That doesn't mean that there are established bird fossils found at that point in time.

It's essentially a hypothesis. But the fossil record isn't at a position in which that can be firmly stated. It's like saying, we have this fossil, and we think this may suggest an earlier beginning time for birds.

But without further details, it's simply unknown. At least in terms of the fossil record.

And I don't need to provide counter evidence because your claim isn't backed by evidence to begin with. The bird being described is dated to 150mya, not 170.
 
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