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Evolution and the myth of "scientific consensus"

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Oncedeceived

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I see you deflecting the issue. I am not claiming that there is no evidence supporting evolution and in saying I am you are hoping that my argument will disintegrate into the old standard argument about mountains of evidence for evolution which you are so comfortable with. However, evidence that supports evolution does not explain the design we see in life forms nor does it explain why this appearance is only an illusion.

I am no victim nor will I allow remarks against me personally to distract from the real issue which you and others are trying very hard to sweep under the rug. The argument makes sense and I have taken nothing out of context from Dawkins nor Crick in making that argument. Your lack of evidence that shows that the design that Dawkins, Crick and most biologists today find in the molecular systems of life forms is the problem and a problem that you have no way of explaining.
 
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crjmurray

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I'm not deflecting anything. You are asking us to disprove a design that you have not shown exists. That is the heart of the matter. If you show design actually exists then we are "required" to provide a natural, non-design related explanation.
 
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Oncedeceived

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I'm not deflecting anything. You are asking us to disprove a design that you have not shown exists. That is the heart of the matter. If you show design actually exists then we are "required" to provide a natural, non-design related explanation.
You are deflecting. Design conveys a designer. Life forms appear to be designed which conveys they are the product of a designer. That is a fact. Design is in evidence, it is up to those who claim that it is only an illusion to show the evidence that it is in fact an illusion.
 
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crjmurray

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You have not shown any evidence for design. That's all that needs to be said. If you do so, we can go from there.
 
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Oncedeceived

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You have not shown any evidence for design. That's all that needs to be said. If you do so, we can go from there.
Yes I have. The design is there for all to see, no one disputes it. They just call it an illusion. Where is the evidence of this illusion? I am off to bed. Goodnight.
 
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crjmurray

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Yes I have. The design is there for all to see, no one disputes it. They just call it an illusion. Where is the evidence of this illusion? I am off to bed. Goodnight.

In the morning you can provide evidence of design.
 
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bhsmte

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I'm not deflecting anything. You are asking us to disprove a design that you have not shown exists. That is the heart of the matter. If you show design actually exists then we are "required" to provide a natural, non-design related explanation.

More burden shifting? What a shock.
 
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crjmurray

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You will get more of the same, no evidence of design though.
I haven't kept up with this thread. Been a bit busy. If I've missed any actual evidence of design then that's on me. But I'm willing to bet my boots that no evidence has been presented whatsoever.
 
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bhsmte

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Some cling to whatever they can, with a tight grip.
 
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bhsmte

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I haven't kept up with this thread. Been a bit busy. If I've missed any actual evidence of design then that's on me. But I'm willing to bet my boots that no evidence has been presented whatsoever.

Not just this thread, this has gone on for many months, in different threads.

Hey, if Michael Behe who is a Phd got his head handed to him when he was cross examined on the evidence for ID in a court of law, I highly doubt a random poster on this board will do any better.

There is a reason ID has no falsifiable verifiable test to determine if it exists.
 
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Atheos canadensis

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It is this that makes me think they're referring to mineralized structures:

"we observed, in four different samples, structures resembling calcified collagen fibres"

That seems pretty straightforward to me. I don't see why preservation of diagnostic structures means they have to be soft tissue.



I disagree. What is wrong with investigating a mechanism that potentially explains a new phenomenon? You say you don't necessarily think one should conclude that geochronology is hopelessly flawed, but at the same time you seem to suggest that it is bad science to posit a mechanism for a newly observed phenomenon. And this is not in the same category as creationists claiming that fossilization occurs rapidly by pointing out objects coated in precipitated minerals. Objects coated in mineral deposits is not the same thing as fossilizaton. Such claims are rightly criticized because they do not reflect the process they claim to. In contrast, Schweitzer has demonstrated that iron is capable of preserving tissue around 24000% longer than tissue not similarly exposed. And it's worth noting that the treated tissue did simply take much longer to disintegrate, it was not significantly degraded at all after two years:

"HB-treated vessels have remained intact for more than 2 years at room temperature with virtually no change"

So again, Schweitzer is extrapolating a process that unequivocally preserves tissue whereas fast fossilization proponents make their claims based on a process that is not actually doing the same thing at all.

Also, unless otherwise noted, I take from your silence on the matter that you concede the weakness of Angstrom's critique of Schweitzer's work.

It could certainly be considered as an option, but it is so unlikely that it definitely is not anywhere near the top of the list of explanations to investigate. See below.


So you do agree that it makes more sense to discard an old understanding in the face of numerous lines of evidence that the understanding is flawed. Please explain why this doesn't apply to the discussion at hand. Why should the scale of the issue (geochronology vs biogeohraphy) make a difference to this logic? Please explain the distinction more explicitly than simply stating that same logic doesn't hold for both situations. In the cougar situation there are multiple consilient lines of evidence indicating that cougar are here. the old understanding of distribution is wrong. In the preserved tissue case there are multiple consilient lines of evidence indicating an old earth. In the former case you agree it makes sense to conclude the ideas about distribution were flawed. The same logic says that it makes more sense in the latter case to assume the ideas about preservation were flawed.

Heavily discordant dates are not useful for building a geologic time model where the goal is to calibrate radiometric data with fossil content. Why is it unreasonable to assume that such discordant dates are discarded?

That's not unreasonable. What's unreasonable is your as yet unevidenced contention, despite testimony to the contrary by a person versed in the field, that discordant dates are simply discarded without any attempt to identify a source of error.


That doesn't actually address the point that old earth proponents actually had to overcome the young earth mainstream in the first place. The data were strong enough that thisnwathis was possible. This undercuts your point that the only reason it is now mainstream is because no one is allowed to question it.
 
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Jan Volkes

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The only thing that will change my mind is evidence, magic never solves any problems, it might solve them in your head but never in reality.
 
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AV1611VET

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The only thing that will change my mind is evidence, magic never solves any problems, it might solve them in your head but never in reality.
So you want evidence it was a miracle that left no evidence?
 
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AV1611VET

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The only thing that will change my mind is evidence, magic never solves any problems, it might solve them in your head but never in reality.
So you want evidence it was a miracle that left no evidence?
As I said, it's all happening in your head, nothing happened outside of your head so there is nothing for anyone else to see.
No, you didn't say that.

You said "magic."

I asked about "miracles."
 
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Jan Volkes

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No, you didn't say that.

You said "magic."

I asked about "miracles."
The magic/miracles are only being performed in your head.

I can see how you would like there to be a distinction but there is no distinction, unless you can tell me the difference between magic and miracle you can not blame me for regarding them as the same thing.

Either way the miracles are all happening in your head.
 
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DogmaHunter

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However, evidence that supports evolution does not explain the design we see in life forms nor does it explain why this appearance is only an illusion.

/facepalm

Natural selection explains exactly that.

Because through this filter, organisms become more specialised for the habitat they find themselves in.

This is why the flower looks like a bee.
This is why certain creatures have a tongue exactly long enough to reach the sweet nectar in the ridiculously deep flower.
This is why to our biased eyes, these things look made for eachother.

That's exactly what evolution explains.


The thing is that what you took from dawkins and crick is not all they have to say on the matter.

If you check out their writings, you'll find that they'll also state that evolution explains why this illusion of design is there.
 
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lifepsyop

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But calcification occurs in living organisms. Why are you associating this with the collagen being 'mineralized' in the sense of being fossilized? From every test they ran they have concluded that the structures are virtually indistinguishable from actual protein.

You didn't answer my question. What exactly do you think they found?



Schweitzer is extrapolating a laboratory environment-controlled 2 year experiment to 70,000,000 years with natural exposure to the elements. If that isn't speculation, I would like to know what your idea of speculation is.


Also, unless otherwise noted, I take from your silence on the matter that you concede the weakness of Angstrom's critique of Schweitzer's work.

I haven't read Angstrom's critique.


It could certainly be considered as an option, but it is so unlikely that it definitely is not anywhere near the top of the list of explanations to investigate. See below.

Yes, but you know perfectly well such considerations are completely banned from discussion. Not only can the idea of dinosaurs being younger than previously thought not be discussed in a formal academic setting, but for a secular scientist to even communicate such an idea on a personal blog would possibly cost him his career, for both being a heretic and lending comfort to the enemy. Lets be honest. That is the politicized environment your camp has cultivated over the years.

So now this line of evidence that questions deep-time will be absorbed into deep-time. The next generation of students will grow up believing it has been proven that such organic material can potentially be preserved for hundreds of millions of years.

That is why your analogy below fails. It does not do service to the complex ad-hoc nature of deep-time/evolution models.


In principle you are correct, but equating the subject at hand with the cougar scenario is simplified to the point of being plain wrong.

That's not unreasonable. What's unreasonable is your as yet unevidenced contention, despite testimony to the contrary by a person versed in the field, that discordant dates are simply discarded without any attempt to identify a source of error.

Yes, sources of contamination are studied in some cases. That doesn't really change my argument, that old-earth geologic dating models are constructed based on whether or not the data agrees with evolution. Data that does not fit with the evolutionary model will be discarded whether or not contamination is identified. It has to be.



But the interpretations that established an old-earth view were wrong. And also it can be argued that the idea of an old-earth was becoming philosophically fashionable by the intelligentsia of this time who held considerable sway over scholarly institutions. (much like the ideological push for Darwinian Evolution a few decades later) The actual scientific data is only part of the equation. On both sides we are dealing with men with beliefs.

Anyways. regardless of its inception, the fact is that nobody has been allowed to question deep-time for generations. Hypotheses and models must conform to evolutionary beliefs or be discarded. There is no other option.
 
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