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Evolution and Genesis account of creation

samalematina

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The amount of disagreement, discourse and ambiguity raised by scripture is very disconcerting.
No wonder we suffer from so many denominations.
If only God had sent a clear and concise word where there was no doubt of interpretation, literal vs literalism, allegory vs parable, poem vs history.
Why oh why... sigh...
 
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trophy33

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The amount of disagreement, discourse and ambiguity raised by scripture is very disconcerting.
No wonder we suffer from so many denominations.
If only God had sent a clear and concise word where there was no doubt of interpretation, literal vs literalism, allegory vs parable, poem vs history.
Why oh why... sigh...
We grow in struggles.

God gave us precisely what we need. We need imperfect and textually uncertain Bible.
 
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Roidecoeur78

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How do you line up Evolution with what the Bible says in Genesis about creation.

Yes they were real people, but so were the ones "from the world"
You might notice that the bible follows a particular lineage of people, that many other people outside that particular family line neither know God nor are expected to, but are more or less just there to be destroyed. Who is it Cain goes off and marries and has children with? Who does Seth end up producing descendants with? The other people of the world. All were and are created by God, but only some does He claim as His or offer to adopt as His. Even Jesus says "I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours" in Jhn 17:9. So to whom, what, and where do the rest belong? To the world, it's worldly nature, and its' inevitable fate.

As far as
Creationism Vs. Darwinism?

I think I had a thought or two God gave me about this, and they go something like this:

That a day to the eternal One is not a 24 hour earth day. It's as long as He decides it is, because a million years is no time at all to Someone that exists outside of time. "do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."-2Peter3:8
And 1000 is likely used because it's a number that was near the upper limit of human understanding at the time of the epistle being written.

That evolution is the process of creation, and so creation is done through the process of elemental and consequent biological evolution.

***Run-on sentence warning***

That the sequence of creation, as illustrated in Genesis, has more or less been verified by the scientific theory of evolution. (i.e. first a void with only a single Being, then space and elements, then environments of varying natures[wet, dry, hot,cold] then simple lives like bacteria and plants filling those places, then more complex lives created by compiling the preexisting simpler systems [grasses, to flowering plants, flowering plants to shrubs, shrubs to trees, etc], by this way every niche gets filled, the seas fill up with creatures that will become fish, fish become every type of fish according to the niche they're filling, some fish will lead to lungfish and mudskipper-types, that lead to amphibians, amphibians lead to reptiles, reptiles lead to both birds and small mammals, reptiles get as big as they will until God sends their walking papers(big boom). The small and or airborne reptiles and mammals survive because they are more mobile, and require less sustenance to carry on their mojos. As the ecological state re-stabilizes they become every type of mammal, reptile, and bird, according to the ecological niche they're filling. Eventually a mammalian body currently called a homo sapiens is created, thus agreeing with Genesis that mankind was the last created being of note on record and so also, according to the evolutionists, the most recent newcomer on the scene.

So there is an obvious direction, which would imply intent; from inanimate elements to animate ones, simple systems to complex ones compiled of the simple ones, from the Singular come the many and diverse, through the rough edged imperfections of nature and its impulses comes the perfection of Jesus Christ's example of what the Father, in Whom all these things live and breathe and have their existence, expects from His children. Not the world's children, for a homo sapiens is only a collection of biological functions, but His children, meaning those whom He wills to awaken to human-being-hood (more than just the instinctual monkey-suit they are wearing). And it was all, is all, and will always be deliberate. And none of it has ever or will ever happen by chance. And never did a leaf or will a leaf fall from a tree, or the number of hairs on anyone's head be unknown to He in whom, by whom, through whom all these wonders come into, endure for a time, and then leave, existence. What it is, it was, and ever shall be.

Just because a homo sapiens named Charles Darwin was created, and was given the faculties and the revelation that would come to elucidate the process of creation, doesn't mean God could or would ever stop existing. It means that those predestined to only see the material, superficial workings of creation will barely be able to comprehend and prove those, so the odds of their coming to understand, know, or believe on He that is working invisibly behind the surface are slim and none.

Praise, Glory, and blessedness be to God in the highest, for He is all, does all, and wills all.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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Theistic Evolution works for me, although some things like sexual reproduction and the mind are beyond chance, I think.

The first man may have been a hybrid or another move of God like the formation of sexual reproduction and the mind. Adam had a mind. It may be something went wrong in creation and God started again by making Adam, either way, he was a turning point. Naming all the animals, holy from conception, glorious, perhaps carnivores were to end with this man. The lion lying with the lamb... But they had a choice and sinned. Sending us back to omnivorousness.

Eve was promised a descendant who would crush the serpent.
 
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Roidecoeur78

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The first man may have been a hybrid
The question would be: at which point in anthropological evolution did obeying the authority of the Creator, rather than the dictates of natural instincts, become responsibility? Before that point would be the innocence of Eden, and after that point living under the curse of disobedience.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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The question would be: at which point in anthropological evolution did obeying the authority of the Creator, rather than the dictates of natural instincts, become responsibility? Before that point would be the innocence of Eden, and after that point living under the curse of disobedience.
I think from the beginning creation was without curse and under the Creator Spirit. Adam would have lived about 10,000 years ago. Adam was under the Holy Spirit and walked with God each day and was obeying the authority of the Creator not to eat from the wrong tree. He was all set to have a sin resisting nature built into him over a long time, centuries. We would have inherited that. From his conception, he was different from animals, he had a more powerful mind and was a spirit, led by the Spirit, with the Spirit inside him like John the Baptist, he was spiritual rather than instinctive and had dominion over all the Earth to change things, so the lion and the lamb would rest together and eat grass. No more the natural violence...

After listening to Satan as led by his wife, his body became bloated out of proportion from his spirit and spirituality, he became carnal and sensual, and had difficulty with his natural appetites. Obeying the Spirit was no longer normal.
 
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notreligus

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I'm probably older than most of the posters at this forum. I've never seen so many attempts to discredit the Books of Moses, especially Genesis, as often as I have seen in recent years. A professor I had in Bible college just released a book promoting an Old Earth. I was disappointed, to say the least.

The opening post raises a lot of questions, including some many have not thought of. If Genesis is just allegory, was it just by chance that this Book has almost 100 references to Salvation that would come to the world through the finished work of Jesus Christ? Look at Genesis 3:21. That's a reference to how Christ's blood would be a covering for our sins. Jesus' righteous has been imputed to us. He stands before God Almighty and calls us righteous and He can do this as His blood has been presented in the heavenly Holy of Holies. It's all detailed in the Book of Hebrews.

Jesus told the Jews that they were condemned by Moses because Moses had revealed Him to them! They were without excuse. (John Chapter Five.)

There is a debate referred to as Documentary Hypothesis. Look up that term and read about this. It is claimed that if Moses could even write he could not write real Babylonian or Hebrew, but wrote with arrow-shaped figures (Cuneiform - look it up). You see, according to the experts, the first five books of the Bible are based on Baylonian myths about their gods. For example, their gods were bored so they had fun torturing people with a flood. The Mitzvot, or the 613 commandments of the Torah (the Law of Moses) were taken from the Code of Hammurabi. Various Hebrew writers, at various times, assembled the Pentateuch/Torah/Books of Moses over a long period of time, including time long after the death of Moses.

The Earth is billions upon billions of years old. These Theistic Evolutionists can't see the forest for the trees. They can't accept that God has done something differently with this Earth and its occupants. There was a pre-Adamite world with giants who roamed the Earth. God had not yet breathed His breath into these human-like creatures until God decided to breath His breath into some particular living beings. We don't really know who they are but they are allegorically referred to as Adam and Eve. Just make up your own version of the truth which is what the Babylonians did, and now "Christian" esoterics and scientists have done the same thing.
 
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GoldenKingGaze

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I'm probably older than most of the posters at this forum. I've never seen so many attempts to discredit the Books of Moses, especially Genesis, as often as I have seen in recent years. A professor I had in Bible college just released a book promoting an Old Earth. I was disappointed, to say the least.

The opening post raises a lot of questions, including some many have not thought of. If Genesis is just allegory, was it just by chance that this Book has almost 100 references to Salvation that would come to the world through the finished work of Jesus Christ? Look at Genesis 3:21. That's a reference to how Christ's blood would be a covering for our sins. Jesus' righteous has been imputed to us. He stands before God Almighty and calls us righteous and He can do this as His blood has been presented in the heavenly Holy of Holies. It's all detailed in the Book of Hebrews.

Jesus told the Jews that they were condemned by Moses because Moses had revealed Him to them! They were without excuse. (John Chapter Five.)

There is a debate referred to as Documentary Hypothesis. Look up that term and read about this. It is claimed that if Moses could even write he could not write real Babylonian or Hebrew, but wrote with arrow-shaped figures (Cuneiform - look it up). You see, according to the experts, the first five books of the Bible are based on Baylonian myths about their gods. For example, their gods were bored so they had fun torturing people with a flood. The Mitzvot, or the 613 commandments of the Torah (the Law of Moses) were taken from the Code of Hammurabi. Various Hebrew writers, at various times, assembled the Pentateuch/Torah/Books of Moses over a long period of time, including time long after the death of Moses.

The Earth is billions upon billions of years old. These Theistic Evolutionists can't see the forest for the trees. They can't accept that God has done something differently with this Earth and its occupants. There was a pre-Adamite world with giants who roamed the Earth. God had not yet breathed His breath into these human-like creatures until God decided to breath His breath into some particular living beings. We don't really know who they are but they are allegorically referred to as Adam and Eve. Just make up your own version of the truth which is what the Babylonians did, and now "Christian" esoterics and scientists have done the same thing.
I think it is a myth assumed by literalists that in the beginning, there was chaos as a gradient for God to work against and from to create the universe and the planet.

I think as it is written God first created the heaven and the Earth, then there is gap of time in which chaos took place. Then God performs the first work of restoration and makes the flooded world a paradise.
 
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JackRT

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After listening to Satan as led by his wife, his body became bloated out of proportion from his spirit and spirituality, he became carnal and sensual, and had difficulty with his natural appetites. Obeying the Spirit was no longer normal.

The Jews never connected Satan to the serpent in the Garden of Eden. It was the second-century Christian martyr, Justin of Samaria, who was first to argue that Satan appeared as a serpent to tempt Adam and Eve to disobey God. Our Christian understanding of the Devil is an amalgamation of the serpent of Genesis, of the Satan of Job, of the Lucifer of Isaiah, the Ahrulman of the Zoroastrian faith all of which is supported by lurid medieval fiction like Dante's "Inferno".
 
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trophy33

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The Jews never connected Satan to the serpent in the Garden of Eden. It was the second-century Christian martyr, Justin of Samaria, who was first to argue that Satan appeared as a serpent to tempt Adam and Eve to disobey God. Our Christian understanding of the Devil is an amalgamation of the serpent of Genesis, of the Satan of Job, of the Lucifer of Isaiah, the Ahrulman of the Zoroastrian faith all of which is supported by lurid medieval fiction like Dante's "Inferno".
So, who is the satan whom Jesus spoke of?
 
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Cis.jd

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First off, I'm glad I found a forum specifically dedicated to this topic. Its something that I've been wanting to discuss.

How do you line up Evolution with what the Bible says in Genesis about creation.
Some Christians say Genesis should not be read literally or that its like a parable or allegory. And the language used in Genesis is written in a poetic way, similar to Psalms.

To me if evolution is fact then Adam evolved and there was no garden of eden or where did original sin occur and hence the remainder of Bible story does not line up or Jesus being crucified for mankind's 'original sin'

Interested to hear you ideas.

I look at God as a master designer, and designers do evolve their designs to be able to live with in the times. Therefore i take the possibility that this is the same with God as a creator and that he created the ability or continued building on his design through evolution in order for us to physically survive this universe in where he has been disconnected from due to our sin.

I can't confirm on "popular" science views of man coming from apes or something like that.. but just the thought of evolution is a rational possibility. At the end, i do not know for certainty.

As a Catholic, i *personally believe that rationality/reason/science is just as important to faith as the Church and the Scriptures. I don't even understand why evolution has any effect of what is in genesis. To me, the point is we all came from the Holy Spirit. As the Apostle's Creed says: "the Lord the giver of life". If you want to believe God just created us or he created us and then evolved us.. it's all up to you.
 
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JackRT

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So, who is the satan whom Jesus spoke of?

God didn't create Satan, man did. Satan (ha'shaitan) occurs by name in the Old Testament in the Book of Job, and here it's clear that the angel Satan is not the Devil! The Devil is supposedly banished from the presence of God, yet in Job, Satan is allowed to talk with and to come and go from God's presence and on a mission for God yet! What's going on? Satan here is not "the Devil" but sort of God's prosecuting attorney. There is a very common perception that the 'Lucifer' in Isaiah 14:12ff refers to Satan, the supernatural personification of evil. This misconception comes from two sources. The first is wishful thinking in the sense that it is nice to think that 'the Enemy' will get his come-uppance eventually. The second has to do with the old caution that scripture is to be read only 'in context'. This requires going back and reading all of Isaiah 13 and the earlier verses in Isaiah 14. When this is done we suddenly realize that scripture is not speaking of a supernatural Satan at all but of a Babylonian king with an immense ego. Read Isaiah 14: " 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:" What follows is a long rant against this oppressive king filled with numerous reference to his human nature like Isaiah 14: "16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?" This passage is in no way a reference to Satan or the devil. The Jews did not originally believe in devils but they picked up this concept during the Babylonian Exile from the Persians who followed Zoroastrianism. The Zoroastrians believed in both a god of good (Ahura-Mazda) and a god of evil (Ahrulman) engaged in a cosmic struggle. The Jews picked up and ran with this idea. It was easy to cast YHWH in the role of the God of good. They took also the angel ha'shaitan (Satan) in the book of Job and recast that character as Satan the near divine force of evil. Up to that time, their concept of God was of a being responsible for everything, both good and evil. Isaiah 45:”7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” is just one quote that demonstrates this. The Jews never connected Satan to the serpent in the Garden of Eden. It was the second-century Christian martyr, Justin of Samaria, who was first to argue that Satan appeared as a serpent to tempt Adam and Eve to disobey God.
 
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MournfulWatcher

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No one has all the answers on this subject. The truth is that we aren't entirely certain. It is interesting to note, however, that we are discoveringe more things about evolution that don't quite line up with the way evolution has previously been understood, and certain ideas presented in the Bible seem to line up with this science. For example, recent scientific studies in epigenetics have shown that we are not entirely slaves to our genetics; in fact, the choices your relatives made can "turn on" or "turn off" certain genes that get passed on to you, and this can be undone within 2 or more generations (reminiscent of Deuteronomy 5:9).

What's more, a recent study has drastically changed the whole timeline of when humans and 90% of all other species on this planet evolved. This study revealed that every animal on Earth (save approximately 10% of all species) including humans suddenly and rapidly came into existence approximately 100,000 to 200,000 years ago following some type of massive catalyst that is still unknown to scientists. Here's an article explaining the study: https://www.google.com/amp/s/phys.org/news/2018-05-gene-survey-reveals-facets-evolution.amp

This has lead me to understand that evolution is not as cut and dry as I have previously believed.

In any case, we have no need as Christians to feel threatened by evolution and science. It does not change the existence of God, or the fact that he created the universe, or that Jesus exists and is the Son of God.
 
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JacksBratt

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First off, I'm glad I found a forum specifically dedicated to this topic. Its something that I've been wanting to discuss.

How do you line up Evolution with what the Bible says in Genesis about creation.
Some Christians say Genesis should not be read literally or that its like a parable or allegory. And the language used in Genesis is written in a poetic way, similar to Psalms.

To me if evolution is fact then Adam evolved and there was no garden of eden or where did original sin occur and hence the remainder of Bible story does not line up or Jesus being crucified for mankind's 'original sin'

Interested to hear you ideas.
Basically, the only far out supernatural miraculous events that are acceptable are any of those that deal with the gospel.. That would be the virgin birth, all the prophesies that Christ fulfilled, the turning water to wine, walking on water, healing anyone, feeding the 5000+, surviving the 50 lashes and then carrying His cross, dying on the cross and rising again, ascending to heaven in front of eye witnesses...and others.

All of these astounding supernatural events, that are not repeatable and defy scientific logic.. all of these are the ONLY ones that you are allowed to believe, as a Christian these days.

The six literal days of creation, Noah's flood and all of the events that surround these.. are totally unacceptable... due to the fact that some guy in a white lab coat says that they are impossible due to what people like him see.

It is much more important to believe some Atheistic, Darwinian, evolutionist about the truth of this universe than the written word of God....unless it is specifically connected to Christ's birth death and resurrection.

Why? Because, we cannot possibly be so gullible to believe the word of God about the six days of creation... duh...

However, if we toss out the miracles of Jesus... we don't have a sniff of a chance of eternal life.

So, keep them.. ya.. that's good... then we can still be saved and go to heaven..



But... chuck all that other nonsense... cause a bunch of egg heads told me it's not possible.


Do you see it yet?

As far as I'm concerned... seriously now.... if you cannot believe the literal biblical account, as it is written, in Genesis.... how on earth can you possibly believe the stories of Christ's life, death, burial and resurrection?

I believe in YEC... that is what the bible says...
I believe in the gospel message... that is what the bible says.

I don't cherry pick what I want to believe... the bible is either truth or not..

You either take all of the unscientific, illogical, unexplainable, supernatural events.... or none.

Don't just take one corner of the scripture.. the part that ensures you entry to paradise.. and toss out the rest.
 
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misput

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I agree with your point that we should not just pick and choose what we believe but I do not agree it is all literal or none of it is true. Obviously there are many different types of language used in scripture i.e. metaphor, simile, figurative, etc. 216 at last count I am aware of. God was not kidding when He said, "come let us reason together, line upon line, precept upon precept. The problem is, many do not have the ability, humility or commitment do what is needed. Reminds me of the old adage of: Why is it called figurative? Because you have to figure it out.
 
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trophy33

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God didn't create Satan, man did. Satan (ha'shaitan) occurs by name in the Old Testament in the Book of Job, and here it's clear that the angel Satan is not the Devil! The Devil is supposedly banished from the presence of God, yet in Job, Satan is allowed to talk with and to come and go from God's presence and on a mission for God yet! What's going on? Satan here is not "the Devil" but sort of God's prosecuting attorney. There is a very common perception that the 'Lucifer' in Isaiah 14:12ff refers to Satan, the supernatural personification of evil. This misconception comes from two sources. The first is wishful thinking in the sense that it is nice to think that 'the Enemy' will get his come-uppance eventually. The second has to do with the old caution that scripture is to be read only 'in context'. This requires going back and reading all of Isaiah 13 and the earlier verses in Isaiah 14. When this is done we suddenly realize that scripture is not speaking of a supernatural Satan at all but of a Babylonian king with an immense ego. Read Isaiah 14: " 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:" What follows is a long rant against this oppressive king filled with numerous reference to his human nature like Isaiah 14: "16 Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, 17 the man who made the world a desert, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?" This passage is in no way a reference to Satan or the devil. The Jews did not originally believe in devils but they picked up this concept during the Babylonian Exile from the Persians who followed Zoroastrianism. The Zoroastrians believed in both a god of good (Ahura-Mazda) and a god of evil (Ahrulman) engaged in a cosmic struggle. The Jews picked up and ran with this idea. It was easy to cast YHWH in the role of the God of good. They took also the angel ha'shaitan (Satan) in the book of Job and recast that character as Satan the near divine force of evil. Up to that time, their concept of God was of a being responsible for everything, both good and evil. Isaiah 45:”7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.” is just one quote that demonstrates this. The Jews never connected Satan to the serpent in the Garden of Eden. It was the second-century Christian martyr, Justin of Samaria, who was first to argue that Satan appeared as a serpent to tempt Adam and Eve to disobey God.
So, who is the satan whom Jesus spoke of? The one whom He called "a murderer from the beginning".
 
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JacksBratt

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I agree with your point that we should not just pick and choose what we believe but I do not agree it is all literal or none of it is true. Obviously there are many different types of language used in scripture i.e. metaphor, simile, figurative, etc. 216 at last count I am aware of. God was not kidding when He said, "come let us reason together, line upon line, precept upon precept. The problem is, many do not have the ability, humility or commitment do what is needed. Reminds me of the old adage of: Why is it called figurative? Because you have to figure it out.
I understand what you are saying...

The text "flowing with milk and honey" is figurative.

The texts below are not. God went out of His way to make it quite clear that it was six days..

"there was evening and morning.. the first day", "there was evening and morning.. the second day","there was evening and morning.. the third day", "there was evening and morning.. the fourth day", "there was evening and morning.. the fifth day","there was evening and morning.. the sixth day"
 
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Job 33:6

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No one has all the answers on this subject. The truth is that we aren't entirely certain. It is interesting to note, however, that we are discoveringe more things about evolution that don't quite line up with the way evolution has previously been understood, and certain ideas presented in the Bible seem to line up with this science. For example, recent scientific studies in epigenetics have shown that we are not entirely slaves to our genetics; in fact, the choices your relatives made can "turn on" or "turn off" certain genes that get passed on to you, and this can be undone within 2 or more generations (reminiscent of Deuteronomy 5:9).

What's more, a recent study has drastically changed the whole timeline of when humans and 90% of all other species on this planet evolved. This study revealed that every animal on Earth (save approximately 10% of all species) including humans suddenly and rapidly came into existence approximately 100,000 to 200,000 years ago following some type of massive catalyst that is still unknown to scientists. Here's an article explaining the study: https://www.google.com/amp/s/phys.org/news/2018-05-gene-survey-reveals-facets-evolution.amp

This has lead me to understand that evolution is not as cut and dry as I have previously believed.

In any case, we have no need as Christians to feel threatened by evolution and science. It does not change the existence of God, or the fact that he created the universe, or that Jesus exists and is the Son of God.

Just to clarify on one thing here. The research does not indicate that 90% of life suddenly and rapidly came into existance. What it's saying is basically that speciation at natural rates occurred within 90% of animals in less than 200,000 years.

So, it's not saying mankind appeared out of thin air, rather it is saying that mankind speciated from something like homo heidelbergensis within the last 200,000 years.

And actually, this makes a lot of sense. We know that life continues to evolve. It doesn't really ever stop. We don't stop mutating for example. And so we continuously form new species over and over and over again.

The research is simply pointing out that most species (90%) on earth speciated within the last 200,000 years (as opposed to say, a million in which case it would be 100%).
 
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