Evolution 101 podcast

[Erik Nelson]

I agree - the biblical flood could only have been local. Try telling that to the biblical literalists on these forums...

A once-in-thousands-of-years super-flood could have submerged the Mesopotamian flood plain underwater from local horizon to local horizon, such that the Biblical report of "world underwater" would be an accurate statement from a local observer (no lying or exaggeration, just limited human POV)

that way everyone's correct

 

[Lobster Johnson]

A once-in-thousands-of-years super-flood could have submerged the Mesopotamian flood plain underwater from local horizon to local horizon, such that the Biblical report of "world underwater" would be an accurate statement from a local observer (no lying or exaggeration, just limited human POV)

that way everyone's correct

A good compromise leaves everyone mad.

 

[Erik Nelson]

A good compromise leaves everyone mad.

well, this would be a synthesis of sources into a single narrative, not a political compromise

 

[Bungle_Bear]

A once-in-thousands-of-years super-flood could have submerged the Mesopotamian flood plain underwater from local horizon to local horizon, such that the Biblical report of "world underwater" would be an accurate statement from a local observer (no lying or exaggeration, just limited human POV)

that way everyone's correct

Correct until you need to explain the Ark ending up on the mountains of Ararat. Mountains covered by water in a flood? Hills maybe, but mountains definitely not.

 

[Astrophile]

It was unambiguously a unique event, yes?

The Iraqis have remembered it for 5000 years as a once-in-5000-years-and-counting event, yes?

One can't have it both ways, claiming it was big enough to generate its own mythology but somehow ordinary and run-of-the-mill.

It was a freak event. Maybe natural, maybe supernaturally augmented.

Reportedly forecasted & observed, and exploited for heavenly purposes upon this planet

According to Arthur Holmes, in Principles of Physical Geology (Second edition completely revised, 1965), page 512, 'Mesopotamia, now inherited by Iraq, has a long record of floods dating back to the time of Noah. The melting of snowfields in the mountains to the north has been an almost annual menace to Baghdad. At the time of the great flood of 1954 ... In 1957 Baghdad would have suffered an even greater disaster ...'

In view of this, it seems more likely that the story of 'the Flood' has been developed over centuries or millennia from the accumulated records and memories of a large number of floods than that there was a single great flood that exceeded all others. The same is true in British and Dutch history. There have been many floods in eastern England and the Netherlands, but for me 'the Flood' is the east coast floods of 31st January and 1st February 1953.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

A once-in-thousands-of-years super-flood could have submerged the Mesopotamian flood plain underwater from local horizon to local horizon, such that the Biblical report of "world underwater" would be an accurate statement from a local observer (no lying or exaggeration, just limited human POV)

that way everyone's correct

Although it wouldn't satisfy those who believe the story of Noah really happened...

 

[Erik Nelson]

Correct until you need to explain the Ark ending up on the mountains of Ararat. Mountains covered by water in a flood? Hills maybe, but mountains definitely not.

foothills?

If it was a flood, eventually the water would drain SE towards the Persian Gulf, yes?

So, the craft drifting north-ish-wards (NE according to the Sumerians? NW according to the Bible?) suggests a reasonably strong southerly wind...

in turn consistent with an Asian summer monsoon season

More outlandishly, some sort of tsunami propagating NE up the Persian Gulf, and carrying everything NE as far as the foothills of Ararat ???

I understand that archeologists have excavated what they claim represents continuous habitation from the 4th into the 3rd millennia BC, straight through, although -- corresponding with the Piora Oscillation wet period -- there was a marked shift in material remains, suggesting a collapse or contraction of trade, circa 3200-2900 BC

Of course, there was one site with an obvious thick flood deposit layer... and we wouldn't know about any sites actually wiped off the face of the map... would seem that there were some survivors who lived to remember and tell the tale...

and some individual, who at some point, loaded all his livestock on some sort of barge, evidently sturdy & stable, and literally rode out the flood

---

maybe IDK how floods work

certainly (?) when the waters finally drained away, the flow would have been general SE towards the Persian Gulf...

perhaps implying that when the waters were rising the flow was generally NW, towards the (foothills of) the mountains of Ararat?

 

[Bungle_Bear]

foothills?

If it was a flood, eventually the water would drain SE towards the Persian Gulf, yes?

So, the craft drifting north-ish-wards (NE according to the Sumerians? NW according to the Bible?) suggests a reasonably strong southerly wind...

in turn consistent with an Asian summer monsoon season

More outlandishly, some sort of tsunami propagating NE up the Persian Gulf, and carrying everything NE as far as the foothills of Ararat ???

I understand that archeologists have excavated what they claim represents continuous habitation from the 4th into the 3rd millennia BC, straight through, although -- corresponding with the Piora Oscillation wet period -- there was a marked shift in material remains, suggesting a collapse or contraction of trade, circa 3200-2900 BC

Of course, there was one site with an obvious thick flood deposit layer... and we wouldn't know about any sites actually wiped off the face of the map... would seem that there were some survivors who lived to remember and tell the tale...

and some individual, who at some point, loaded all his livestock on some sort of barge, evidently sturdy & stable, and literally rode out the flood

---

maybe IDK how floods work

certainly (?) when the waters finally drained away, the flow would have been general SE towards the Persian Gulf...

perhaps implying that when the waters were rising the flow was generally NW, towards the (foothills of) the mountains of Ararat?

The hebrew הָרֵי means mountain, not foothill.

 

[Erik Nelson]

The hebrew הָרֵי means mountain, not foothill.

Strong's Hebrew: 2022. הָר (har) -- mountain, hill, hill country

anything from mount to hill to mountain

 

[Bungle_Bear]

Strong's Hebrew: 2022. הָר (har) -- mountain, hill, hill country

anything from mount to hill to mountain

Indeed, but overwhelming majority is mountain and that includes the entries for Genesis 8:4 & 5. Thank you for providing that support

 

[Kylie]

A once-in-thousands-of-years super-flood could have submerged the Mesopotamian flood plain underwater from local horizon to local horizon, such that the Biblical report of "world underwater" would be an accurate statement from a local observer (no lying or exaggeration, just limited human POV)

that way everyone's correct

Perhaps.

But then, a book inspired by a deity that knows literally EVERYTHING would have said so, rather than saying that the entire world was under water when it was not the case.

 

[Kylie]

foothills?

If it was a flood, eventually the water would drain SE towards the Persian Gulf, yes?

So, the craft drifting north-ish-wards (NE according to the Sumerians? NW according to the Bible?) suggests a reasonably strong southerly wind...

in turn consistent with an Asian summer monsoon season

More outlandishly, some sort of tsunami propagating NE up the Persian Gulf, and carrying everything NE as far as the foothills of Ararat ???

I understand that archeologists have excavated what they claim represents continuous habitation from the 4th into the 3rd millennia BC, straight through, although -- corresponding with the Piora Oscillation wet period -- there was a marked shift in material remains, suggesting a collapse or contraction of trade, circa 3200-2900 BC

Of course, there was one site with an obvious thick flood deposit layer... and we wouldn't know about any sites actually wiped off the face of the map... would seem that there were some survivors who lived to remember and tell the tale...

and some individual, who at some point, loaded all his livestock on some sort of barge, evidently sturdy & stable, and literally rode out the flood

---

maybe IDK how floods work

certainly (?) when the waters finally drained away, the flow would have been general SE towards the Persian Gulf...

perhaps implying that when the waters were rising the flow was generally NW, towards the (foothills of) the mountains of Ararat?

Unfortunately, Mt Ararat is on the Armenian Highlands, so the water has to get to 1500 to 2000 meters deep to even get close to Mt Ararat.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Unfortunately, Mt Ararat is on the Armenian Highlands, so the water has to get to 1500 to 2000 meters deep to even get close to Mt Ararat.

think the text says "mountains of", as in somewhere in the same mountain range

Perhaps.

But then, a book inspired by a deity that knows literally EVERYTHING would have said so, rather than saying that the entire world was under water when it was not the case.

you're assuming you know the mind of God in heaven

you're assuming that God would want to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, in a modern 21st century western way

all we have been told is that God in heaven works through human agents on earth, evidently the way the flood story has come down to us represents some best, optimal, maximal combination of literal accuracy and spiritual insights to best suit God's purposes

fact remains, there's a report of a super massive flood, right in the time and place, where archeology reveals a sudden cultural contraction, and geology reveals a wet period that raised the water level in the dead sea +100m

we shouldn't be "penny wise but pound foolish"

something big happened, and "90 cents on the dollar" ain't bad for an "intelligence report" 5000 years old

I predict that a detailed map of the surviving archeology sites could define where and how high the waters reached

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

...you're assuming you know the mind of God in heaven

you're assuming that God would want to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, in a modern 21st century western way

all we have been told is that God in heaven works through human agents on earth, evidently the way the flood story has come down to us represents some best, optimal, maximal combination of literal accuracy and spiritual insights to best suit God's purposes...

Ah, the old standard disclaimer, GWIMW (God Works In Mysterious Ways). I thought it was going extinct, but it still turns up now and then to explain the inexplicable.

 

[Kylie]

think the text says "mountains of", as in somewhere in the same mountain range

And those mountains are on the Armenian Highlands, which is about 1500 to 200 meters above sea level. My point remains.

you're assuming you know the mind of God in heaven

you're assuming that God would want to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, in a modern 21st century western way

Well then, he sure seems to be telling the truth in a way that fits exactly with what we'd expect the people of that time to have written if they had no divine knowledge whatsoever.

all we have been told is that God in heaven works through human agents on earth, evidently the way the flood story has come down to us represents some best, optimal, maximal combination of literal accuracy and spiritual insights to best suit God's purposes

So the best, optimal, maximal combination of literal accuracy and spiritual insights to best suit God's purposes is exactly what we'd expect the people of the time to have written if they were just trying to explain things they couldn't possibly understand?

fact remains, there's a report of a super massive flood, right in the time and place, where archeology reveals a sudden cultural contraction, and geology reveals a wet period that raised the water level in the dead sea +100m

Yes, there have been lots of floods. Doesn't mean the story of Noah is true.

we shouldn't be "penny wise but pound foolish"

something big happened, and "90 cents on the dollar" ain't bad for an "intelligence report" 5000 years old

Would you like to explain to me how the Biblical flood account is 90% accurate then?

I predict that a detailed map of the surviving archeology sites could define where and how high the waters reached

Do you think that the flood waters need to have reach Mt Ararat for the accounts to be 90% accurate?

 

[Erik Nelson]

Well then, he sure seems to be telling the truth in a way that fits exactly with what we'd expect the people of that time to have written if they had no divine knowledge whatsoever.

huh?

There would have been no flood myth... if "Noah / Atrahasis / Utnapishtim" hadn't built a barge... according to Divine Commands to him from heaven

please acknowledge?

So the best, optimal, maximal combination of literal accuracy and spiritual insights to best suit God's purposes is exactly what we'd expect the people of the time to have written if they were just trying to explain things they couldn't possibly understand?

again

• God in heaven told "Noah" to build a barge
• so "Noah" built a barge
• super-flood
• "Noah" and his barge wound up running aground far to the north in the northern mountain foothills
• every survivor around amazed at the miracle
• they all recounted the miracle for thousands of years

This is not about a flood

It's about God in heaven communicating to "Noah" (about a then-coming flood)

we have to keep our eyes on the ball

Yes, there have been lots of floods. Doesn't mean the story of Noah is true.

how many other flood myths

• involve communications from heavenly powers
• accurately date the flood to a time corresponding to archeology (Jemdet Nasr period) & geology (Piora Oscillation)

?

Would you like to explain to me how the Biblical flood account is 90% accurate then? Do you think that the flood waters need to have reach Mt Ararat for the accounts to be 90% accurate?

all of the "Noah / Utnapishtim / Atrahasis" mythic memories have the "hero" run aground far to the north, yes?

well, then, that's the surviving eye-witness testimony evidence -- "Noah" built his barge somewhere in the south, and wound up far to the north

Flood waters are not perfectly horizontal & level -- hence they are actually flowing back out to sea, but slowly

Noah could have wound up at +200m without worldwide sea levels being +200m, the water might have actually been say +10m above local ground level all the way up slope from the Persian gulf to the foothills of the northern mountains -- the water would have been "backed up" because torrential monsoon like rains were inputting more water faster than it could drain out to sea

any super-flood transporting a barge-like craft from near the Persian gulf towards the northern mountains qualifies as "accurate in the main" to my mind, yes

 

[Kylie]

huh?

There would have been no flood myth... if "Noah / Atrahasis / Utnapishtim" hadn't built a barge... according to Divine Commands to him from heaven

please acknowledge?

I don't understand the point you are trying to make here.

again

• God in heaven told "Noah" to build a barge
• so "Noah" built a barge
• super-flood
• "Noah" and his barge wound up running aground far to the north in the northern mountain foothills
• every survivor around amazed at the miracle
• they all recounted the miracle for thousands of years

This is not about a flood

It's about God in heaven communicating to "Noah" (about a then-coming flood)

we have to keep our eyes on the ball

Telling me the plot/moral of your story does not mean the story is true.

how many other flood myths

• involve communications from heavenly powers

Lots. List of flood myths - Wikipedia

• accurately date the flood to a time corresponding to archeology (Jemdet Nasr period) & geology (Piora Oscillation)

?

Please show me ANY archaeological or geological evidence to show that there was a worldwide flood.

all of the "Noah / Utnapishtim / Atrahasis" mythic memories have the "hero" run aground far to the north, yes?

well, then, that's the surviving eye-witness testimony evidence -- "Noah" built his barge somewhere in the south, and wound up far to the north

So? Your own arguments have totally failed to show that there was ever enough water to get anywhere close to where your story says the barge ended up. Are you asking me to abandon logic in order to believe your story?

Flood waters are not perfectly horizontal & level -- hence they are actually flowing back out to sea, but slowly

You don't understand how water works, do you? What sort of angle do you think the flood waters made? And it was, according to the Bible, a WORLDWIDE flood. It couldn't have been flowing out to see, because the entire world was already sea!

Noah could have wound up at +200m without worldwide sea levels being +200m, the water might have actually been say +10m above local ground level all the way up slope from the Persian gulf to the foothills of the northern mountains -- the water would have been "backed up" because torrential monsoon like rains were inputting more water faster than it could drain out to sea

So you are suggesting that a barge with no propulsion or sails could have moved uphill AGAINST the current? Once again, you don't seem to understand how water works.

any super-flood transporting a barge-like craft from near the Persian gulf towards the northern mountains qualifies as "accurate in the main" to my mind, yes

So as long as the story says what you want it to, you'll say it's accurate.

That's funny. I'd think a little thing like "obeying the laws of nature, such as drifting vessels not moving against the current" would be a much better way of determining accuracy. In other words, if the story requires violations of the laws of physics, then the story is wrong.

 

[Erik Nelson]

Archeological evidence of massive flood deposit at Shuruppak [1-2], at the end of the Jemdet Nasr period c.30th century BC (start of both arrows).

Shuruppak was home (in local Sumerian memory) of Utnapishtim, prince of Shuruppak (son of the last king, Ubara-Tutu, son of Enmendurana = Enoch), who was instructed by the god Ea (Yah) to build a barge ("the preserver of life") and surviving two weeks on the open flood waters before running aground on an isolated hillock (according to one interpretation [3-4], thin wavy arrow)

perfectly plausible, major floods take weeks to subside

First city to recover afterwards was Kish (orange circle [5-6])

The circles representing Jemdet Nasr cities are about 20 miles across, and you can only see 2-3 miles at sea. Thus you can see, that "Noah" was essentially on the open ocean -- the Persian Gulf briefly doubled in size, and "Noah" never saw a hint of a whiff of land for weeks.

His world was completely underwater. The descriptions are accurate, but taken out of context if construed to mean the whole global surface of earth.

archeological continuity at other sites might mean that (say) the central tell mound was least affected, and renovated afterwards, but all outlying districts (invisible to archaeology) were in fact wiped out?

1. Shuruppak - Wikipedia
2. Jemdet Nasr period - Wikipedia
   
3. Utnapishtim - Wikipedia
   
4. Mount Nisir - Wikipedia
5. Ubara-Tutu - Wikipedia
   
6. Kish (Sumer) - Wikipedia

 

[Kylie]

View attachment 265601

Archeological evidence of massive flood deposit at Shuruppak [1-2], at the end of the Jemdet Nasr period c.30th century BC (start of both arrows).

Shuruppak was home (in local Sumerian memory) of Utnapishtim, prince of Shuruppak (son of the last king, Ubara-Tutu, son of Enmendurana = Enoch), who was instructed by the god Ea (Yah) to build a barge ("the preserver of life") and surviving two weeks on the open flood waters before running aground on an isolated hillock (according to one interpretation [3-4], thin wavy arrow)

perfectly plausible, major floods take weeks to subside

First city to recover afterwards was Kish (orange circle [5-6])

The circles representing Jemdet Nasr cities are about 20 miles across, and you can only see 2-3 miles at sea. Thus you can see, that "Noah" was essentially on the open ocean -- the Persian Gulf briefly doubled in size, and "Noah" never saw a hint of a whiff of land for weeks.

His world was completely underwater. The descriptions are accurate, but taken out of context if construed to mean the whole global surface of earth.

archeological continuity at other sites might mean that (say) the central tell mound was least affected, and renovated afterwards, but all outlying districts (invisible to archaeology) were in fact wiped out?

1. Shuruppak - Wikipedia
2. Jemdet Nasr period - Wikipedia
   
3. Utnapishtim - Wikipedia
   
4. Mount Nisir - Wikipedia
5. Ubara-Tutu - Wikipedia
   
6. Kish (Sumer) - Wikipedia

Two things jump out at me here...

Firstly, the end point that is marked by the arrow on the map has an elevation of at least a kilometer according to this map. If the water level was one kilometer, wouldn't the flooding have covered a whole lot more area?

Secondly, a localised flood is entirely at odds with what is written in the Bible. The Bible clearly states, "6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them." God wanted to wipe out ALL life on Earth except for Noah. Humanity had spread beyond the area shown in your map, so if God wanted to wipe out all the people, this flood wasn't going to do it. And if it was a local flood, why not simply tell Noah to get out of there for a little while? According to Answers In Genesis, Noah had 55-75 years to build the ark. Surely he could have walked out of the flood area in that time! And why the need to gather all the animals? If the flood was a localised one, then there was little risk of extinction. Cattle would have survived, as would most other species, since they were not confined to that single area of land.

In short, claiming the flood was local means a lot of what God did - instructing Noah to build the ark, gathering all the animals, etc - simply makes no sense. The Biblical story ONLY makes sense if it was indeed a truly global flood - and there is no evidence to support that, and plenty of evidence against it. Your 90% accurate claim seems very difficult to justify.

 

[JackRT]

The Biblical story ONLY makes sense if it was indeed a truly global flood

OR if it is an interpretive narrative, aka. a mythology.