Evolution 101 podcast

[Erik Nelson]

But given that there's no way to detect such interference, it remains outside the scope of what science tells us about evolution.

And if such interference were detectable, then it would serve as proof of God.

suggestive of the kinds of things to consider:

The Human Skull Obeys the 'Golden Ratio,' Study Suggests. Anatomists Say That's Ridiculous. | Live Science

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

suggestive of the kinds of things to consider:

The Human Skull Obeys the 'Golden Ratio,' Study Suggests. Anatomists Say That's Ridiculous. | Live Science

As is often the case with such claims, they didn't find the Golden Ratio, but a ratio fairly close to it. If you look for ratios close to the Golden Ratio, you'll find approximations everywhere, and some will apply to features considered significant. This is the biological equivalent of bible codes.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

But given that there's no way to detect such interference, it remains outside the scope of what science tells us about evolution.

And if such interference were detectable, then it would serve as proof of God.

Quite; if what we observe is indistinguishable from what we would expect to observe from natural phenomena without interference, supernatural explanations are simply redundant.

 

[Erik Nelson]

As is often the case with such claims, they didn't find the Golden Ratio, but a ratio fairly close to it. If you look for ratios close to the Golden Ratio, you'll find approximations everywhere, and some will apply to features considered significant. This is the biological equivalent of bible codes.

maybe but the human average of 1.64 was within 2% of the theoretical ideal 1.61, much closer than other animals in the study, hence they bothered to report the finding

 

[Erik Nelson]

Quite; what we observe is indistinguishable from what we would expect to observe from natural phenomena without interference, supernatural explanations are simply redundant.

and if not...

 

[Kylie]

suggestive of the kinds of things to consider:

The Human Skull Obeys the 'Golden Ratio,' Study Suggests. Anatomists Say That's Ridiculous. | Live Science

But there's no evidence to suggest that instances of the Golden Ratio must be the work of intelligences.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

and if not...

If we can't find a natural explanation, it remains unexplained. 'Supernatural cause' is a possible hypothesis, but it inevitably ranks lower than other hypotheses, lacking explanatory power, testability, predictive power, scope, specificity, unifying power, parsimony, and raising unanswerable questions.

Arguably, such hypotheses are tantamount to labelling the phenomenon 'inexplicable'.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

maybe but the human average of 1.64 was within 2% of the theoretical ideal 1.61, much closer than other animals in the study, hence they bothered to report the finding

Sure, but the relevant question is whether it is significant, i.e. is the Golden Ratio in some way an optimum for skull shapes, or is it just a coincidence that the human skull approximates it?

Do you think it's significant? if so, why?

 

[JackRT]

Arguably, such hypotheses are tantamount to labelling the phenomenon 'inexplicable'.

Or simply saying "It was magic."

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Or simply saying "It was magic."

Yes; I've found no traction here whatsoever trying to get some clarification of the difference...

 

[Erik Nelson]

Or simply saying "It was magic."

Arthur C Clarke gave an answer for that one already

If we can't find a natural explanation, it remains unexplained. 'Supernatural cause' is a possible hypothesis, but it inevitably ranks lower than other hypotheses, lacking explanatory power, testability, predictive power, scope, specificity, unifying power, parsimony, and raising unanswerable questions.

Arguably, such hypotheses are tantamount to labelling the phenomenon 'inexplicable'.

"other-worldly heavenly powers really have long been intervening into terrestrial affairs" is a simple, parsimonious explanation of available evidence, which if pursued seriously, could make all manner of specific predictions

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

"other-worldly heavenly powers really have long been intervening into terrestrial affairs" is a simple, parsimonious explanation of available evidence, which if pursued seriously, could make all manner of specific predictions

Such as?

 

[Erik Nelson]

Such as?

weather manipulation and telekinetic tractor beams are technically feasible

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

weather manipulation and telekinetic tractor beams are technically feasible

I don't follow - how could they be specific predictions of heavenly powers that we could test?

It seems to me that a specific prediction that can confirm or falsify some hypothesis must be a logical consequence of that hypothesis. How do you obtain specific logical consequences from something as vague and ill-defined as 'heavenly powers'?

 

[Erik Nelson]

I don't follow - how could they be specific predictions of heavenly powers that we could test?

It seems to me that a specific prediction that can confirm or falsify some hypothesis must be a logical consequence of that hypothesis. How do you obtain specific logical consequences from something as vague and ill-defined as 'heavenly powers'?

"heavenly super-powers" of "godlike beings in the heavens" has a perfectly sensible scientific interpretation, one that wouldn't even be surprising, having been predicted by everyone from Epicurus to Bruno to Fermi & Drake. Clarke explains why we'd perceive them as magical and "godlike"

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

"heavenly super-powers" of "godlike beings in the heavens" has a perfectly sensible scientific interpretation, one that wouldn't even be surprising, having been predicted by everyone from Epicurus to Bruno to Fermi & Drake. Clarke explains why we'd perceive them as magical and "godlike"

OK, but that doesn't answer the question. "heavenly super-powers" might be capable of many wonders, but what logic leads you to weather manipulation and telekinetic tractor beams specifically?

 

[Erik Nelson]

OK, but that doesn't answer the question. "heavenly super-powers" might be capable of many wonders, but what logic leads you to weather manipulation and telekinetic tractor beams specifically?

well, the Flood and recession of the red sea were caused by freak storms... Reportedly the results of heavenly interventions

Enoch, Jesus and Mary supposedly were lifted skyward, by heavenly influences

accepted & scientifically interpreted, it is possible to augment storms and lift matter from the surface of planets (would be very useful if true)

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

well, the Flood and recession of the red sea were caused by freak storms... Reportedly the results of heavenly interventions

Enoch, Jesus and Mary supposedly were lifted skyward, by heavenly influences

accepted & scientifically interpreted, it is possible to augment storms and lift matter from the surface of planets (would be very useful if true)

I see. It seems to me that any extraordinary, inexplicable, or miraculous event from stories, ancient or modern, could be given the same attribution, which rather diminishes the specificity of weather manipulation and telekinetic tractor beams.

How we'd distinguish a storm of rare intensity from one caused by weather manipulation is another story...

 

[Kylie]

well, the Flood and recession of the red sea were caused by freak storms... Reportedly the results of heavenly interventions

Enoch, Jesus and Mary supposedly were lifted skyward, by heavenly influences

accepted & scientifically interpreted, it is possible to augment storms and lift matter from the surface of planets (would be very useful if true)

Sorry, but I can't see how a storm of any size could produce enough water to flood the entire world...

 

[JackRT]

Sorry, but I can't see how a storm of any size could produce enough water to flood the entire world...

It is estimated that if all the world's ice should melt the sea level would rise about 200 feet. At the peak of the last ice age so much water was locked up in ice that the sea level was about 600 feet lower.