Evidence that homosexuality is wrong..?

[EnemyPartyII]

The Bible=God's words

I disagree

in the eyes of most real Christians, keeping in mind that Christian is a Christ follower.

It is perfectly reasonable to be a "real" Christian without believing the bible = God's word

If homosexuality was caused by sin- a result of someone's sin, or a result of the fall- it is not natural, per the definition of natural that has previously been put forth.

what possible logic leads you to the conclussion that somehow sin created homosexuality?

And there is no way to have any kind of evidence outside of the Bible that would indicate that it is or isn't natural.

Sure there is... does it occur in nature? Um... YES!

I think the Bible provides pretty bad evidence for... well... just about anything in terms of nature... it doesn't even have a particularly good record at natural observation!

Oh, and there's evidence in the Bible that it's unnatural, but you and others choose to write it off as addressing idolatry and such... sickening...

So, in your mind, the Bible saying something is right or wrong is "evidence" that something is natural or not?

Hmmm... further... you now seem to be taking the line that homosexuality is wrong because its not "natural"...

So what?

Do you disaprove of everything that is unnatural?

is homosexuality more unnatural than, say, using a computer?

 

[naotmaa]

The Bible=God's words, in the eyes of most real Christians, keeping in mind that Christian is a Christ follower. God thinks, last time I checked.

If homosexuality was caused by sin- a result of someone's sin, or a result of the fall-

By whose sin?

it is not natural, per the definition of natural that has previously been put forth.

I'm sorry I most have missed that.What definition was that?

And there is no way to have any kind of evidence outside of the Bible that would indicate that it is or isn't natural.

well it occurs in nature.

I don't get the "it isn't natural" agument. Natural does not equal it being good, not does it equal it being bad. It just is.

Oh, and there's evidence in the Bible that it's unnatural, but you and others choose to write it off as addressing idolatry and such... sickening...

So do you have any evidence outside of the Bible that it could be considered wrong?

 

[djbcrawford]

but that doesn't change the fact that their are gays and lesbians. It would seem pointless to tell a loving same sex couple that they can not have sex because they had the "wrong genitalia."

The words gay and lesbian are just labels, they don't refer to another sex or species. They are still just males and females with a destinct biological purpose.

What you mean to say is, that doesn't change the fact that there are men who want to have sex with men and woman that want have sex with other woman. It is also a fact that there are adults who want to have sex with children and humans who want to have sex with animals. The fact that an alternative desire exists is not evidence that it is automatically "correct" or "natural".

 

[djbcrawford]

No.

Good meaningful debate there. It would peobably help if you gave some reasons.

Natural is anything that occurs in nature.

So cannibalism, rape, matricide, patricide and infanticide are all perfectly natural then?

 

[naotmaa]

The words gay and lesbian are just labels, they don't refer to another sex or species. They are still just males and females with a destinct biological purpose.

..so?

What you mean to say is, that doesn't change the fact that there are men who want to have sex with men and woman that want have sex with other woman.

Mmhmm and also fall in love with each other and have life lasting relationships.

It is also a fact that there are adults who want to have sex with children and humans who want to have sex with animals. The fact that an alternative desire exists is not evidence that it is automatically "correct" or "natural"

The two examples you gave are both harmful and non consentual. Homosexuality is neither of those things.
I never said that because it exists makes it automatically correct, I said because it exists and is not harmful in anyway, it is correct.

 

[djbcrawford]

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbcrawford
Does the fact that humanity consists of 2 sexes (male and female),
__________

Two primary sexes, a few rare sexes, and a plethora of genders. This is more accurate, though by no means exhaustive.

_____________

My response - The rarities are genetic anomalies as opposed to other destinct sexes. Explain how genders are the same as the two sexes?
_____________
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbcrawford
the fact that their gentitalia is designed to fit together
______________

'Designed'? Please, elaborate.

_______________

My response - If the word bothers you. replace it with evolved to or its function is to.. Oh yes, and answer the question.
________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbcrawford
and the fact that sex is ultimately designed to combine dna and produce offspring
_________________

Again you meantion design. What evidence is there of design?

_________________

My response - See above
_________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbcrawford
not suggest that a same sex sexual acts are somehow "wrong" or "un-natural"?
___________________

The fact that homosexuality occurs in 2-5% of the human population is very strong evidence that it is wholly natural.

___________________

My response - Lots of things occur in x% of the population. In fact everything occurs in x% of the population. If you take the point of view that nothing un-natural can happen then every act be it murder, rape, theft, genocide all happens in the natural world so must be natural. Either we waste our time coming up with a new word to describe what i am saying or you accept you know what I mean and answer the question.

P.S. Must work out how to use the multi-quote properly...

 

[djbcrawford]

You'd think it would, but some choose to say 'it works other ways too'.

And it does.

A spanner is a tool whose function is to tighten and loosen nuts. At a pinch you could probably use it as a hammer, a bottle opener, a paperweight and a make-shift club.

That doesn't change the fact that's it's a spanner and it's function is to tighten and loosen nuts. To use it any other way is "un-natural".

 

[Ohioprof]

The words gay and lesbian are just labels, they don't refer to another sex or species. They are still just males and females with a destinct biological purpose.

What you mean to say is, that doesn't change the fact that there are men who want to have sex with men and woman that want have sex with other woman. It is also a fact that there are adults who want to have sex with children and humans who want to have sex with animals. The fact that an alternative desire exists is not evidence that it is automatically "correct" or "natural".

It's also not evidence that there is anything wrong with it.

 

[Ohioprof]

A spanner is a tool whose function is to tighten and loosen nuts. At a pinch you could probably use it as a hammer, a bottle opener, a paperweight and a make-shift club.

That doesn't change the fact that's it's a spanner and it's function is to tighten and loosen nuts. To use it any other way is "un-natural".

So if we say that the purpose of the mouth is to eat, does that mean that talking is unnatural? That kissing is unnatural? That smiling is unnatural?

Hey, the mouth eats, but it works other ways too.

Your post assumes that (1) there our bodies were intentionally designed, and (2) that our bodies were designed with one intended purpose only.

I don't see any evidence that our bodies were intentionally designed. I see evidence that our bodies evolved. And the purpose of our body parts is whatever we use them for. They can have multiple uses.

 

[djbcrawford]

Mmhmm and also fall in love with each other and have life lasting relationships.

And of course they couldn't have children and would have no desire to either as their sex doesn't count, only their gender.

The two examples you gave are both harmful and non consentual. Homosexuality is neither of those things. I never said that because it exists makes it automatically correct, I said because it exists and is not harmful in anyway, it is correct.

People thought smoking was consentual and not harmful in any way. They were certainly wrong.

 

[Ohioprof]

Good meaningful debate there. It would peobably help if you gave some reasons.



So cannibalism, rape, matricide, patricide and infanticide are all perfectly natural then?

I have already given reasons in numerous posts.

Natural is what occurs in nature, whether we approve of it or not. That something is natural tells us nothing about whether we judge it to be moral or not. For that reason, I don't think that the question of whether something is natural is particularly useful in the debate/discussion we are having here.

 

[Ohioprof]

And of course they couldn't have children and would have no desire to either as their sex doesn't count, only their gender.



People thought smoking was consentual and not harmful in any way. They were certainly wrong.

Plenty of gay people have children. I have a child. I need to get her to bed, as she has school tomorrow.

 

[djbcrawford]

So if we say that the purpose of the mouth is to eat, does that mean that talking is unnatural? That kissing is unnatural? That smiling is unnatural?

Hey, the mouth eats, but it works other ways too.

The mouth is designed to eat, talk, kiss and smile. Come up with something it's not designed to do, then we can discuss it.

Your post assumes that (1) there our bodies were intentionally designed, and (2) that our bodies were designed with one intended purpose only.

I don't see any evidence that our bodies were intentionally designed. I see evidence that our bodies evolved. And the purpose of our body parts is whatever we use them for. They can have multiple uses.

No, my post said our genetalia were designed with an obvious purpose. Since the design word bothers everyone so much, lets say our genetalia functions in an obvious way. Male [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] produces packets of DNA which bond with the female egg. Seems clearcut to me.

Since you favour evolution, if the ultimate goal of evolution is to pass on genes to the next generation, then why would evolution produce in an organism a desire which directly prevents this happening?

 

[djbcrawford]

Plenty of gay people have children. I have a child. I need to get her to bed, as she has school tomorrow.

How did you manage that when you find people of the opposite sex so repulsive? Gonna have to come back to this later as i have to work tomorrow myself.

 

[Ohioprof]

The mouth is designed to eat, talk, kiss and smile. Come up with something it's not designed to do, then we can discuss it.



No, my post said our genetalia were designed with an obvious purpose. Since the design word bothers everyone so much, lets say our genetalia functions in an obvious way. Male [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] produces packets of DNA which bond with the female egg. Seems clearcut to me.

Since you favour evolution, if the ultimate goal of evolution is to pass on genes to the next generation, then why would evolution produce in an organism a desire which directly prevents this happening?

To extend your reasoning, using your "design" argument, our genitals are designed to make love in a variety of ways, just as the mouth is designed to act in a variety of ways.

Of course, I don't believe any of our body parts were designed, and their uses are what we do with them, not what a non-existent designer intended.

 

[Ohioprof]

How did you manage that when you find people of the opposite sex so repulsive? Gonna have to come back to this later as i have to work tomorrow myself.

I have never said that I find people of the opposite sex repulsive. Please do not put words in my mouth. I love many men; I just am not attracted to them as romantic partners.

Your question makes quite a few assumptions, does it not?

FYI, I adopted my daughter. And I must get her to bed now. Ciao.

 

[CShephard53]

Enemyparty, we're done with this discussion. For one, it's off topic to the op. You're not giving arguments, you're simply stating modern observations. Modern observations don't cut it, because homosexuality had to have some sort of beginning- which you don't have record of. To say it's natural because it occurs in nature with ANIMALS is totally different from saying it's natural in humans. And for another, you don't have evidence that it's natural. I've got evidence it's unnatural, but it's off topic to the OP for one and for another it's an unacceptable source to you. It's called the Bible. You're not listening to what I'm saying, and you're ignoring the evidence for the Bible's authenticity that's being put in front of your nose. We're done debating and discussing this issue.

 

[Ohioprof]

Enemyparty, we're done with this discussion. For one, it's off topic to the op. You're not giving arguments, you're simply stating modern observations. Modern observations don't cut it, because homosexuality had to have some sort of beginning- which you don't have record of. To say it's natural because it occurs in nature with ANIMALS is totally different from saying it's natural in humans. And for another, you don't have evidence that it's natural. I've got evidence it's unnatural, but it's off topic to the OP for one and for another it's an unacceptable source to you. It's called the Bible. You're not listening to what I'm saying, and you're ignoring the evidence for the Bible's authenticity that's being put in front of your nose. We're done debating and discussing this issue.

Homosexuality is natural in humans, because there are gay humans. By definition, natural is anything that occurs in nature. Humans are part of nature, and homosexuality occurs in humans.

I don't understand why you are getting hung up on the "natural" question anyway.

 

[Wiccan_Child]

No, there is no evidence to suggest homosexuality came about on its own. And I'd like to see you cite some.

Homosexuality is beneficial to sexually-reproducing social specie. In over 1,500 species, it is present. It is primarily used to reinforce the bonds between same-sex hunter-gatherer groups, nursing groups, birthing groups, warrior groups, scout groups, etc. Indeed, notice that it is rarely, if at all, found in non social species.

Do you know for sure what happened all around the world at any given time in history?

It is foud throughout recorded history, yes.

If you have to ask what my point is with the sperm and the egg...
Eggs happen in females and hermaphrodites- the latter is a very rare occurance. Sperm come from males. They are designed for sex. Their parts are designed for sex.

Again with 'design'. Can you claify what you mean by 'design'?

 

[CShephard53]

No one is following the logic of it... what a sad world we live in...