Evidence of miracles.

partinobodycular

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Sceptic logic. Me.
I’ve looked at it all, and so decided it is ( or is not) fraud (, or inconclusive ) because (.. insert reasons) . ( a statement from science)
Logical Horse. Cart.
My logic...

Be open minded, but ask for evidence.
If none is provided ask again.
If after numerous requests no such evidence is presented then assume that the claimant either has none, or has overstated its merits.

21 pages, and you've provided us with no evidence, guess where I'm filing your claims.

This isn't due to my lack of open mindedness, it's due to your lack of evidence.
 
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Mountainmike

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My logic...

Be open minded, but ask for evidence.
If none is provided ask again.
If after numerous requests no such evidence is presented then assume that the claimant either has none, or has overstated its merits.

21 pages, and you've provided us with no evidence, guess where I'm filing your claims.

This isn't due to my lack of open mindedness, it's due to your lack of evidence.

Robert Lawrence - state pathologist, son of a Nobel laureate, involved in two of the cases , who states whilst he is not religious , also states the evidence is inexplicable by science and goes a long way to disproving Darwin. That should make you take notice. Why does he think that? What made him think so?

Lawrence is one of many far better qualified than you to judge , who has both taken, seen and tested the samples. He is an expert witness, and has the experience to judge them.

So your actual logic is:

Fail to search out evidence, then use the lack of evidence you didn’t even search for , as evidence that evidence doesn’t exist.

Using that process You are Trapped in an intellectual cage of your own making, in which you only allow things you “ like” to get through the intellectual door.

Sad.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Robert Lawrence - state pathologist, son of a Nobel laureate, involved in two of the cases , who states whilst he is not religious , also states the evidence is inexplicable by science and goes a long way to disproving Darwin. That should make you take notice. Why does he think that? What made him think so?

Lawrence is one of many far better qualified than you to judge who has both taken, seen and tested the samples. He is an expert witness, and has the experience to judge.

So your actual logic is:

Fail to search out evidence, then use the lack of evidence you didn’t even search for , as evidence that evidence doesn’t exist.

Using that process You are Trapped in an intellectual cage of your own making, in which you only allow things you “ like” to get through the intellectual door.

Sad.

Why should we search out evidence when you're the one making the claims that miracles actually happen? If you can make the claims, then you can provide the evidence. And we don't just mean the names of people, nor of books, we mean the ACTUAL evidence.

Do you get this very simple idea?
 
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Mountainmike

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I am not reproducing the content of copyrighted works on a public forum. Most academic treatises are also behind a paywall.

The claims and who supports them are enough for you to follow them if you want to be informed.

Dozens of qualified pathologists cannot explain bread to traumatised human heart conversion, or the presence of leucocytes, the lack of nuclear dna, presence of Middle East mitichondrial DNA. The samples alone defy science regardless of their origin.

Nor can they explain how a statue bleeds human traumatised blood on continuous footage that scabs, so is living. The statue was CT tested twice. Not a. Human hair breadth channel.

That is the evidence vouched for by many forensic pathologists
A simple google search will find you tissue sections.

if you want to hide from evidence that is fine.
But you can either examine it and contest it,
Or you can no longer claim the evidence does not exist.

So here is the illogic of this forum.
“ it’s a fraud, so I don’t have to research it, and pathologists are wrong”
Their beliefs trump any evidence to contrary.

Where sceptic logical me states
“ I have to research it to say it is fraud” and having done so I agree with pathologists who can find no evidence of fraud.

But then I am a scientist. I care about evidence.

Apriori sceptics here & Like Sagan and Dawkins raise the bar against things they don’t like as high as is needed to prevent any of it getting inside their intellectual cage. They lower the bar to things they like. There is no design postulated for a first cell from non living materials , no evidence it can happen, did happen, or any mechanism postulated for it. No way to repeat it, test it, or tgat it repeats. It doesn’t even make hypothesis status. A single cell is breathtakingly complicated , a self evolving repairing factory of tens thousand proteins , with software ie DNA that would take hundreds of books to fill.


But of course sceptics “ like” that particulate extraordinary claim, so they lower their intellectual cage wall to say it’s a fact. The software wrote itself they say.

Where actual evidence of life coming from. Inert materials - take a statue- is discounted without even looking at science. It has to be fraud, right?

The hypocrisy of apriori sceptics and abuse of science used to attempt to reinforce their world view is breathtaking!

I came to this forum to talk science.
You all seemingly want to talk belief.


Why should we search out evidence when you're the one making the claims that miracles actually happen? If you can make the claims, then you can provide the evidence. And we don't just mean the names of people, nor of books, we mean the ACTUAL evidence.

Do you get this very simple idea?
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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I am not reproducing the content of copyrighted works on a public forum. Most academic treatises are also behind a paywall.

This comment right here casts massive doubt onto the validity and honesty of your intent to debate.

You keep going on and on and on that no-one will look at the evidence, but then you do nothing to provide the actual evidence yourself.

I do not believe that are here with the intent to debate this honestly.
 
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Mountainmike

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I do not believe that are here with the intent to debate this honestly.

Right boot.
Wrong foot.

There are tissue sections you can google.
Not just one event, several continents, many scientists
The names of world class pathologists who studied them.
The opinions of what they concluded.
Papers that back up contentions, like leucocytes don’t last, or cardiac trauma produces heteroplasmic mitochondrial DNAas observed.

In all other fields of science , books and details cost. Because science costs money to do.

CF sceptic illogic.
It’s a fraud, so I don’t need to study it. Pathologists are wrong.
A belief statement , not a scientific one.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Right boot.
Wrong foot.

There are tissue sections you can google.
Not just one event, several continents, many scientists
The names of world class pathologists who studied them.
The opinions of what they concluded.
Papers that back up contentions, like leucocytes don’t last, or cardiac trauma produces heteroplasmic mitochondrial DNAas observed.

In all other fields of science , books and details cost. Because science costs money to do.

CF sceptic illogic.
It’s a fraud, so I don’t need to study it. Pathologists are wrong.
A belief statement , not a scientific one.

Provide them. I'm not doing your work for you. You claim that you have the evidence, then the onus is on you to show it.
 
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Mountainmike

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Provide them. I'm not doing your work for you. You claim that you have the evidence, then the onus is on you to show it.
It’s not my work, or my claim, or my onus.

Its a claim by many world class pathologists in respect of numerous so called Eucharistic miracles , and such as the statue of Cochabamba.
They are inexplicable for reasons listed many times.
Nobody has even challenged the reasons , let alone disproved them.

Just the usual list of sceptic tropes. Like “ it must be substitution fraud” even though substitution cannot explain them. If sceptics studied them , they would know why.

Just the usual.
“ it must be fraud, so I won’t study the evidence, the pathologists must be wrong” sceptic belief cart in front of evidence horse.

Ive listed other phenomena on this forum that have been investigated. Not even a hint of how they could be fraud.

Just google them for starters, see where the evidence leads. Or stop claiming there is no evidence.

tell me… how does a statue with no channels weep blood on continuous video, and even if it as deposited blood how does it form a scab? It’s a process Of life that doesn’t happen post mortem. Or so pathologists say. The white cells lyse in vitro. How does life pass all tests for human but fail to yield nuclear DNA? but do they yield Middle East mitochondrial DNA with heteroplasmy so it is not a single sample substituted.

sceptic belief statement .. ignore all evidence… it must be fraud ( with no idea of how fraud was possible, in this case it wasn’t)

I can’t have a science conversation with those who just want to discuss atheist or deist belief conclusions instead.

I’ll get back involved if anyone wants to talk science.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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It’s not my work, or my claim, or my onus.

It is your claim that there is evidence for miracles and thus the onus is on you to present said evidence. For example, you keep going on about a statue and give not a shred of evidence about it.

If you won't present any evidence for your claims, why should anyone take you seriously?
 
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Mountainmike

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Google Cochabamba statue. Better still buy the book.

Done.
I’ve told you what pathologists say is inexplicable about it.

if your belief stops you looking, that’s sad.

What’s the point in my posting a mitochondrial Middle Eastern haplogroup anyway? Or the structure of inflamed myocardium? You wouldn’t understand it if it hit you on the head.
You rely on DNA labs and pathologist for that.
I’ve told you what they say.

I have pathologists on my side, you just have apriori belief.


It is your claim that there is evidence for miracles and thus the onus is on you to present said evidence. For example, you keep going on about a statue and give not a shred of evidence about it.

If you won't present any evidence for your claims, why should anyone take you seriously?
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Google Cochabamba statue. Better still buy the book.

Done.
I’ve told you what pathologists say is inexplicable about it.

if your belief stops you looking, that’s sad.

What’s the point in my posting a mitochondrial Middle Eastern halogroup anyway? Or the structure of inflamed myocardium? You wouldn’t understand it if it hit you on the head.
You rely on DNA labs and pathologist for that.
I’ve told you what they say.

You really do not get what I and other people are getting at.

You keep making all these claims and then when pressed for evidence you go "Look for it yourself." If someone asks you for something, do you go "Look for it yourself" every time? Or do you do the correct and intelligent thing which is to show what they're supposed to be looking for.

Because if I google Cochbamba statue, I guarantee that I will find more sites debunking it as a fraud than those showing it for an actual miracle that you claim it to be.

You posting claims means nothing unless you SHOW THE EVIDENCE FOR THE CLAIMS.

Do you understand what I'm getting at? Because there really is no other way for me to dumb this down any further.
 
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Mountainmike

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Do I have to dumb this down further?

1/ It would not matter what I post, you would not look.
It offends your belief.

2/ it doesn’t matter what skepdic idiots say, ( and yes you are right, there are a lot of them who refuse to research it but want to give a verdict ) , it matters only what the pathologists say, who actually researched the samples so look them up.

I post links that nobody studies I post books that nobody buys.
Start here if you wish or many similar. It won’t make a blind bit of difference.
The Bleeding Statue of Christ, In Couchabamba Bolivia | Reason To Believe

You will reply with an illinformed trope.
In the picture is Willesee - the most respected investigative journalist of his era, who spent a career dismissing frauds. He could not find fault with this.

Waste of time, I want to talk science .
Like the latest evidence on matching mitochondrial haplogroups.

You really do not get what I and other people are getting at.

You keep making all these claims and then when pressed for evidence you go "Look for it yourself." If someone asks you for something, do you go "Look for it yourself" every time? Or do you do the correct and intelligent thing which is to show what they're supposed to be looking for.

Because if I google Cochbamba statue, I guarantee that I will find more sites debunking it as a fraud than those showing it for an actual miracle that you claim it to be.

You posting claims means nothing unless you SHOW THE EVIDENCE FOR THE CLAIMS.

Do you understand what I'm getting at? Because there really is no other way for me to dumb this down any further.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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1/ It would not matter what I post, you would not look.
It offends your belief.

That's such a copout answer and anyone with a brain knows it.

And I am looking at the link you provided. And already, it gets too fantastical.
"In separate and independent DNA labs, the blood has been found to be human, but no human genetic profile has been forthcoming."
So how can it be found to be human blood if it doesn't have a human genetic profile?
It even talks about how the blood found as tissue in it that would abnormal to be found in blood cells.

And no, you don't want to talk science. If you did, you'd know that you need to show evidence for you claims.
 
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Mountainmike

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Eureka, you at least looked so deserve an answer.
It is only fantastical viewed through your beliefs.

it is what it is. Evidence trumps your belief. Your credulity is irrelevant.

Science is only a codification of what is observed, it is not absolute. This is now observed.

At least 20 labs / pathologists have said the same across several events. No nuclear DNA sequence. Get over it. It happened.

It also rules out fraud. Fraud would have the donor DNA
It also has ( new) a Middle Eastern mitochondrial haplogroup. As do the Eucharistic miracles.

so … who is the only person alleged to have no human father ( so no combined nuclear DNA) but did have a mother ( mitochondrial)? I leave you to judge.

But there is plenty of evidence where that came from, Vouched for by world class pathologists. I would hope that has raised your curiosity.

That's such a copout answer and anyone with a brain knows it.

And I am looking at the link you provided. And already, it gets too fantastical.
"In separate and independent DNA labs, the blood has been found to be human, but no human genetic profile has been forthcoming."
So how can it be found to be human blood if it doesn't have a human genetic profile?
It even talks about how the blood found as tissue in it that would abnormal to be found in blood cells.

And no, you don't want to talk science. If you did, you'd know that you need to show evidence for you claims.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Eureka, you at least looked so deserve an answer.
It is only fantastical viewed through your beliefs.

it is what it is. Evidence trumps your belief. Your credulity is irrelevant.

Science is only a codification of what is observed, it is not absolute. This is now observed.

At least 20 labs / pathologists have said the same across several events. Get over it.

It also rules out fraud. Fraud would have the donor DNA
It also has ( new) a Middle Eastern mitochondrial haplogroup. As do the Eucharistic miracles.

so … who is the only person alleged to have no human father ( so no combined nuclear DNA) but did have a mother ( mitochondrial)? I leave you to judge.

But there is plenty of evidence where that came from, Vouched for by world class pathologists.

Science is a codification of what is observed, but to codify what is observed, you need evidence not just claims. Which really seems to be all you have.

So show the evidence that the Eucharist has a Middle Eastern mitochondrial haplogroup instead of just claiming it.

Again, you need to learn to stop just making claims without showing evidence and you REALLY need to tone down your attitude which fully reeks of arrogance, and these needless attacks on people who disagree with you.
 
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partinobodycular

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At least 20 labs / pathologists have said the same across several events. No nuclear DNA sequence.
But these are simply your claims, which we're getting third or fourth hand.

First there was a report written by supposedly indisputable experts. Which may be true, but haven't been independently verified. Then there was a book written about the event which gives an overview of the results and the author's personal characterization and interpretation of those results. Then a website cherry picks the statements in the book and presents them as objective facts. Then you present the latter to us as indisputable proof.

During each step in this process the possibility that some of the results get misunderstood, mischaracterized, or embellished increases, until it becomes difficult for us to give them much merit without a corroborating source. A source which you expect us to go find for ourselves.

This would be like me definitively claiming that we live in a multiverse because I saw it on a website which quoted from a book by Hugh Everett, who's one of the greatest physicists of all time. And who am I to question Hugh Everett.

But what we both need to ask is...what do the facts actually say?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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It’s not my work, or my claim, or my onus.

Its a claim by many world class pathologists in respect of numerous so called Eucharistic miracles , and such as the statue of Cochabamba.
They are inexplicable for reasons listed many times.
Nobody has even challenged the reasons , let alone disproved them.

Just the usual list of sceptic tropes. Like “ it must be substitution fraud” even though substitution cannot explain them. If sceptics studied them , they would know why.

Just the usual.
“ it must be fraud, so I won’t study the evidence, the pathologists must be wrong” sceptic belief cart in front of evidence horse.

Ive listed other phenomena on this forum that have been investigated. Not even a hint of how they could be fraud.

Just google them for starters, see where the evidence leads. Or stop claiming there is no evidence.

tell me… how does a statue with no channels weep blood on continuous video, and even if it as deposited blood how does it form a scab? It’s a process Of life that doesn’t happen post mortem. Or so pathologists say. The white cells lyse in vitro. How does life pass all tests for human but fail to yield nuclear DNA? but do they yield Middle East mitochondrial DNA with heteroplasmy so it is not a single sample substituted.

sceptic belief statement .. ignore all evidence… it must be fraud ( with no idea of how fraud was possible, in this case it wasn’t)

I can’t have a science conversation with those who just want to discuss atheist or deist belief conclusions instead.

I’ll get back involved if anyone wants to talk science.
Nobody here has said, "It must be fraud" or "the pathologists must be wrong" - the fact that you need to strawman our arguments this way is telling.

We simply don't find your account convincing - and we're well aware that accounts written in books have no special claim to accuracy or lack of bias, and that experts can say silly things, can be cherry-picked, misquoted, and misattributed. We've also seen that looking into the background of some of the supposedly expert, honest, unimpeachable, unbiased, and independent professionals involved in these cases has discovered them to be nothing of the sort.

You claim to be a scientist yet seem unable to understand why these claims are not good evidence. There may be good evidence, but we've yet to see it - 'buy the book' is not it ('Chariots of the Gods' anyone?).

You have been unwilling or unable to answer the concerns about these stories except by saying how much you trust everyone involved and by posting a Gish-gallop of much you believe in various other unrelated but equally dubious claims, as if that makes any of them more credible. It's evidence that makes them credible or not.

Don't you see how railing against scientists and sceptics, because they question the evidence or want more than anecdotal evidence, is an illogical and/or irrational response?
 
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Hans Blaster

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FrumiousBandersnatch

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It seems like this site is *very* motivated to get you to spend your money. Hmmmmmmmmmmm.
It's a common thread.

I note that the statue in question is described as, "...a solid plaster object moulded around an inner void."

The Skeptic's Dictionary says:

For those who wish to create their own weeping statue, Italian skeptic Luigi Garlaschelli describes one way to do it:

What is needed is a hollow statue made of a porous material such as plaster or ceramic. The icon must be glazed or painted with some sort of impermeable coating. If the statue is then filled up with a liquid (surreptitiously, through a tiny hole in the head, for example), the porous material will absorb it, but the glazing will stop it from flowing out. If the glazing, however, is imperceptibly scratched away on or around the eyes, tear-like drops will leak out, as if materializing from thin air. If the cavity behind the eyes is small enough, once all the liquid has dripped out there are virtually no traces left in the icon. When I put it to the test, this trick proved to be very satisfactory, baffling all onlookers.*

A simpler method is just to smear blood or oil on the icon.
Just sayin' ;)
 
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Mountainmike

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It’s not my account. It’s the account of those who researched it.

I am a sceptic too, which is why I took the trouble to get the evidence.

I have no time at all for people who want to conclude without special knowledge , or even studying it first. Like all here, and skepdic. Skepdic as always creates a trope based on no evidence , no examination, that does not even match the facts.
Anyone who quotes skedpic against investigation forensic pathologists lacks any credibililty. The statue was CT scanned several times. Which says there is no pathway. But the idiots of skepdic didnt even consider - even if it explains blood, it does not explain scabs (ie life) white cells in vitro (life) or where human blood with no nuclear DNA code comes from to fake it. As always skepdic is utterly useless.

There are no valid objections since none are based on the evidence, none have bothered to get it.

if one lab says “ there’s no DNA code” is interesting , not conclusive .
If several say it of this sample , that says this sample or testing is an anomaly.

if multiple labs testing similar samples from similar unrelated circumstances, and there is no question that all are testing the same sample it is beyond reasonable doubt.

The different samples matter. When several radiocarbon labs tested the same sample with the same method, it was one test repeated not several tests. And it was the biggest mistake in dating history. So yes scientists screw up. Nonsense is still nonsense even when talked by Zurich, oxford and arizona labs. But in that case they didnt just screw up. They actually fiddled the numbers! Lost all credibility same day.

But there is so much evidence on this. that the burden of proof has reversed. It is a fact there is no DNA code, until someone can give a reason why all the labs simultaneously failed on multiple different independent samples. There is no sensible hypothesis.

Of course "inexplicable" like scabs forming in non vital blood, is not a miracle.
But between these samples they appear to confirm.
1/ Created life, not life from small change
2/ A virgin birth (virtue of no nuclear DNA pattern, only maternal)
3/ Bread becomes flesh.
Since those ARE the primary christian doctrines it is clearly evidence of a miracle. Science cannot say it , because is just a limited tool, a man made tool that codifies patterns. Here is a new pattern. Eucharistic samples do not have a DNA code. It repeated so it is science.


Anyway. Since those here have descended to quoting skepdic, its clear they have no interest in science only skepdic tropes.

You are welcome to them, but dont ever confuse scientific proces
with belief based tropes on skepdic.


Nobody here has said, "It must be fraud" or "the pathologists must be wrong" - the fact that you need to strawman our arguments this way is telling.



We simply don't find your account convincing - and we're well aware that accounts written in books have no special claim to accuracy or lack of bias, and that experts can say silly things, can be cherry-picked, misquoted, and misattributed. We've also seen that looking into the background of some of the supposedly expert, honest, unimpeachable, unbiased, and independent professionals involved in these cases has discovered them to be nothing of the sort.

You claim to be a scientist yet seem unable to understand why these claims are not good evidence. There may be good evidence, but we've yet to see it - 'buy the book' is not it ('Chariots of the Gods' anyone?).

You have been unwilling or unable to answer the concerns about these stories except by saying how much you trust everyone involved and by posting a Gish-gallop of much you believe in various other unrelated but equally dubious claims, as if that makes any of them more credible. It's evidence that makes them credible or not.

Don't you see how railing against scientists and sceptics, because they question the evidence or want more than anecdotal evidence, is an illogical and/or irrational response?
 
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