Evidence for widespread systemic racism.

[Hammster]

I'm up against Brandolini's law here, but here's the evidence:

There are disparities in the levels of policing, arrest rates, sentencing and incarceration that are based solely on race. For instance:

• Illegal drug use does not vary significantly by race and ethnicity, but blacks are more than twice as likely to be arrested for drug use than the general population
• Black and Hispanic drivers were somewhat more likely to be stopped than whites, and three times as likely as whites to be searched and arrested
• Blacks and Latinos are more likely than whites to be denied bail, to have a higher money bond set, and to be detained because they cannot pay their bond
• Prosecutors are more likely to charge people of color with crimes that carry heavier sentences than whites. Federal prosecutors, for example, are twice as likely to charge African Americans with offenses that carry a mandatory minimum sentence than similarly situated whites

What part of the system dictates that?

 

[essentialsaltes]

What part of the system dictates that?

Oh, it's all Francesca's fault. If we just fire her, the world will be perfect.

This is why we're talking about systemic racism. It's the whole system. It's like "you can't fight city hall".

If you look at it as a black box, you input rules of equality for all, but the output comes out skewed. There's something wrong with the box.

Possibly further analysis could uncover the faulty 'part'. But first we have to at least recognize that the system is faulty.

 

[Hammster]

Oh, it's all Francesca's fault. If we just fire her, the world will be perfect.

This is why we're talking about systemic racism. It's the whole system. It's like "you can't fight city hall".

If you look at it as a black box, you input rules of equality for all, but the output comes out skewed. There's something wrong with the box.

Possibly further analysis could uncover the faulty 'part'. But first we have to at least recognize that the system is faulty.

Then it’s not actually people who are racists?

 

[essentialsaltes]

Then it’s not actually people who are racists?

People can also be racists. But that's not what people mean when they are talking about systemic racism.

That's why there's a different name for it. Possibly it's why you are struggling and asking for information. You understand and hate racism (prejudiced and bigoted people), but you appear to be having trouble with systemic racism.

 

[Hammster]

People can also be racists. But that's not what people mean when they are talking about systemic racism.

That's why there's a different name for it. Possibly it's why you are struggling and asking for information. You understand and hate racism (prejudiced and bigoted people), but you appear to be having trouble with systemic racism.

The system is impersonal. People can be bias towards ethnicities, which is sinful. But for a system to be bias, a person has to be behind it.

 

[essentialsaltes]

The system is impersonal.

I don't see what that has to do with it being free from bias.

The original 'redlining' maps for loans and insurance were impersonal. Banks just want to make money. Nothing personal.

 

[BNR32FAN]

While that's a good skeptical stance, you have to be willing to take a good hard look before you can conclude you can't see it.

So what your saying is that systematic racism is so widespread that it can’t easily be seen? No what’s happening here is because I’m at a contrary position to your’s you automatically assume that I’m refusing to view it objectively which is incorrect. Why do you think they wrote an article about the Beverly Hills police department? Do you think they wrote it because this is the type of system we see everywhere else, or do you think they wrote it because it’s not something that is typically seen?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Their names are on the first page.

It seems to me that the reason you're not seeing is because you're not looking, even when someone has carefully drawn your attention to something and pointed.

Discrimination in Mortgage Lending: Evidence from a Correspondence Experiment

• January 2016
• Journal of Urban Economics 92

DOI:10.1016/j.jue.2015.12.004
Authors:

Andrew Hanson

• University of Illinois at Chicago

Zack Hawley

• Texas Christian University

Hal Martin

• Federal Reserve Bank of Cleveland

Im curios how these loan applications can work with fake names since they have to pass a credit check that’s going to associate the name with a social security number. So how can they have identical loan applications with different names and still pass a credit check?

 

[Hammster]

I don't see what that has to do with it being free from bias.

The original 'redlining' maps for loans and insurance were impersonal. Banks just want to make money. Nothing personal.

Then it isn’t racism.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Black and Hispanic drivers were somewhat more likely to be stopped than whites, and three times as likely as whites to be searched and arrested

Police can’t stop a vehicle without a reason, they can’t search a vehicle without probable cause and people can’t be arrested unless the police have evidence that they committed a crime.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Blacks and Latinos are more likely than whites to be denied bail, to have a higher money bond set, and to be detained because they cannot pay their bond

All of this is circumstantial evidence without the specific information about each individual case. It doesn’t actually prove anything because the fact may be that these particular Latinos and blacks were actually breaking the law. One could assume that racism is taking place and one could also assume from the same exact evidence you’ve provided that blacks & Latinos are more likely to break the law. Your evidence supports both theories.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Oh, it's all Francesca's fault. If we just fire her, the world will be perfect.

This is why we're talking about systemic racism. It's the whole system. It's like "you can't fight city hall".

If you look at it as a black box, you input rules of equality for all, but the output comes out skewed. There's something wrong with the box.

Possibly further analysis could uncover the faulty 'part'. But first we have to at least recognize that the system is faulty.

What do you suggest that we do to stop this that hasn’t already been done? Laws have been put in place to put a stop it so when organizations or individuals are found to be in violation of these laws then we have to prosecute them. What more can we possibly do than that?

 

[BNR32FAN]

I don't see what that has to do with it being free from bias.

The original 'redlining' maps for loans and insurance were impersonal. Banks just want to make money. Nothing personal.

Im still trying to understand how these loan applications were supposed to be identical except for the names and still pass a credit check? The information on the application has to match what comes back on the credit report. How would that even be possible?

 

[essentialsaltes]

So what your saying is that systematic racism is so widespread that it can’t easily be seen?

No, what I'm saying is that you said you didn't see it.
I pointed you to a research paper with some evidence.
You said you weren't going to look at it.
You aren't sincere in taking a good hard look at the situation, so your 'skeptical' stance is fake. You're seeing what you want to see, and ignoring things you don't want to see.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Then it isn’t racism.

We're not talking about racism. You wanted to know about systemic racism.

It had a de facto effect that discriminated against people of color. That meets my definition for systemic racism.

 

[essentialsaltes]

All of this is circumstantial evidence without the specific information about each individual case.

It's because we're looking at the whole system. The topic, once again, is systemic racism. The topic is not your racist uncle who uses the N-word at family gatherings.

 

[essentialsaltes]

What do you suggest that we do to stop this that hasn’t already been done? Laws have been put in place to put a stop it so when organizations or individuals are found to be in violation of these laws then we have to prosecute them. What more can we possibly do than that?

Step 1 is to admit there is actually a problem to be solved.
Step 2 is to commit to solving it.

This is not my area of expertise, but I can imagine all sorts of procedures or training that might help.

Strip resumes of identifying information apart from qualifications.
Remove photos from officer selection board files.
Train people to be aware of the problem, and give advice on how we can act to reduce it.

If you're a hiring manager, don't reject resumes of people with funny looking names you don't know how to pronounce.
People with foreign names have long gotten over the awkwardness of explaining how to pronounce it.
What they haven't gotten over is not being called for an interview at all just because someone's afraid of the awkwardness of asking.

 

[Hammster]

We're not talking about racism. You wanted to know about systemic racism.

It had a de facto effect that discriminated against people of color. That meets my definition for systemic racism.

Fair enough. Is your definition the one common to others who claim that systemic racism is widespread?

 

[essentialsaltes]

Fair enough. Is your definition the one common to others who claim that systemic racism is widespread?

I don't know. I'm not an expert in the topic. I wrote that definition off the top of my head. I was hoping someone with more knowledge would engage.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, what I'm saying is that you said you didn't see it.
I pointed you to a research paper with some evidence.
You said you weren't going to look at it.
You aren't sincere in taking a good hard look at the situation, so your 'skeptical' stance is fake. You're seeing what you want to see, and ignoring things you don't want to see.

a research paper that I can’t see the actual applications. Like I said before, I believe what I see in everyday life over what someone I don’t know tells me that I can’t actually see.