Francis Drake
Returning adventurer.
- Apr 14, 2013
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You said this in response to my reference to the Law of the Nazirite.
Numbers 6v1Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,
2“Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘When either a man or woman consecrates an offering to take the vow of a Nazirite, to separate himself to the Lord,
3he shall separate himself from wine and similar drink; he shall drink neither vinegar made from wine nor vinegar made from similar drink;
neither shall he drink any grape juice, nor eat fresh grapes or raisins.
4All the days of his separation he shall eat nothing that is produced by the grapevine, from seed to skin.
You will note that this passage makes a clear distinction between grape juice, wine, and vinegar. This proves that wine cannot be mere grape juice as you claim. Vinegar is again different to both juice and wine. Three completely different results are produced from grapes.
Grape juice gets crushed out of the grapes by treading them in an earth dug wine press (with dirty feet). If you drink it very quickly, it will not have had time to ferment into alcohol.
However that fresh grape juice, with no help from men, immediately begins to ferment, rapidly turning the sugars into alcohol and CO2 gas. This conversion of simple juice to alcohol is proven by Jesus's instruction of new wine needing new wine skins. The fermentation of the new wine will fill the wineskins with CO2, stretching them like a balloon. Old wine skins have lost their stretch and will burst, loosing all the wine.
Although they didn't understand the process, vinegar is produced when a fruit fly lands on the wine, depositing a certain bacteria which turns the wine sour or into vinegar.
This passage shows three distinctly different drinks, all from grapes, proving yet again that it is utterly dishonest to pretend that wine was not alcoholic.
All of this presents a real problem for your claim that Jesus was a Nazirite.
Firstly it proves that wine is not the same as juice, and never can be no matter how much you twist scripture.
Secondly, the Nazirite was not just prohibited from drinking wine, but also prohibited from eating anything to do with grapes or even raisins (dried grapes), including "from seed to skin".
Every last bit of the grape vine was a sin for the Nazirite!
Mark4v25Truly, I say to you, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”
"I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine" = alcoholic wine. To "not drink again", meant that he usually drank it with them.
Lk22v18For I tell you I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."
Matt26v29Mark my words—I will not drink wine again until the day I drink it new with you in my Father’s Kingdom.”
Jn19v28After this, knowing that everything had now been accomplished, and to fulfill the Scripture, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” 29A jar of sour wine was sitting there. So they soaked a sponge in the wine, put it on a stalk of hyssop, and lifted it to His mouth. 30When Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished.” And bowing His head, He yielded up His spirit.…
And the very last thing Jesus did on earth was drink sour wine, a great sin according to some. Ooops, did Jesus sin by error, just before going to his Father?
God gave Israel and abundance of vineyards as part of the promised land, a "Land flowing with milk and honey. He promised abundant harvest when they walked faithfully before him. Yet you deceive people out of the land of promise by pretending that alcohol is a sin.
Again you are trying ram the Law of the Nazirite down the throat of all Christians. But a simple reading of that law reveals certain specifics that completely derail your argument. Read it slowly word by word.-
Numbers 6v1Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,
2“Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘When either a man or woman consecrates an offering to take the vow of a Nazirite, to separate himself to the Lord,
3he shall separate himself from wine and similar drink; he shall drink neither vinegar made from wine nor vinegar made from similar drink;
neither shall he drink any grape juice, nor eat fresh grapes or raisins.
4All the days of his separation he shall eat nothing that is produced by the grapevine, from seed to skin.
You will note that this passage makes a clear distinction between grape juice, wine, and vinegar. This proves that wine cannot be mere grape juice as you claim. Vinegar is again different to both juice and wine. Three completely different results are produced from grapes.
Grape juice gets crushed out of the grapes by treading them in an earth dug wine press (with dirty feet). If you drink it very quickly, it will not have had time to ferment into alcohol.
However that fresh grape juice, with no help from men, immediately begins to ferment, rapidly turning the sugars into alcohol and CO2 gas. This conversion of simple juice to alcohol is proven by Jesus's instruction of new wine needing new wine skins. The fermentation of the new wine will fill the wineskins with CO2, stretching them like a balloon. Old wine skins have lost their stretch and will burst, loosing all the wine.
Although they didn't understand the process, vinegar is produced when a fruit fly lands on the wine, depositing a certain bacteria which turns the wine sour or into vinegar.
This passage shows three distinctly different drinks, all from grapes, proving yet again that it is utterly dishonest to pretend that wine was not alcoholic.
All of this presents a real problem for your claim that Jesus was a Nazirite.
Firstly it proves that wine is not the same as juice, and never can be no matter how much you twist scripture.
Secondly, the Nazirite was not just prohibited from drinking wine, but also prohibited from eating anything to do with grapes or even raisins (dried grapes), including "from seed to skin".
Every last bit of the grape vine was a sin for the Nazirite!
Mark4v25Truly, I say to you, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”
"I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine" = alcoholic wine. To "not drink again", meant that he usually drank it with them.
Lk22v18For I tell you I will not drink again from the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes."
Matt26v29Mark my words—I will not drink wine again until the day I drink it new with you in my Father’s Kingdom.”
Jn19v28After this, knowing that everything had now been accomplished, and to fulfill the Scripture, Jesus said, “I am thirsty.” 29A jar of sour wine was sitting there. So they soaked a sponge in the wine, put it on a stalk of hyssop, and lifted it to His mouth. 30When Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished.” And bowing His head, He yielded up His spirit.…
And the very last thing Jesus did on earth was drink sour wine, a great sin according to some. Ooops, did Jesus sin by error, just before going to his Father?
God gave Israel and abundance of vineyards as part of the promised land, a "Land flowing with milk and honey. He promised abundant harvest when they walked faithfully before him. Yet you deceive people out of the land of promise by pretending that alcohol is a sin.
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id he drink it? Quote the bible where it says that Jesus Christ himself drank wine.
