Everyone goes to hell, right?

[workmx]

Dear workmx. May I just point out, with love naturally, In Matthew 22: verse 37:
the Expositor`s New Testament, tells us: "This is the foundation of all the Law
and as well, applies to the present Day of Grace." Jesus tells us: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all our hearts, with all our souls, and with all our minds. The second is like it: Love our neighbour as we love ourselves." Jesus also tells us: "On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets." God wants our Love, freely given and No Conditions Tagged On. Love will never send us to Hell, and Love is what Jesus died for,
Jesus died that we might live. Greetings from Emmy, sister in Christ.

But why love a god that sends people to hell.

IMO, that sounds like an abuse victim who is forced to love their abuser.

Are you saying that religion is a variant of Stockholm Syndrome?

 

[workmx]

Your conclusion here does not necessarily follow from your premise.

You are right.

Let me clarify:

If hell is real, it does mean god is not all loving (a truly loving being would not mandate an infinite punishment for a finite crime).

It seems that the christian god is not all loving. This god only loves people who love him first and unconditionally.

Whether or not one goes to hell is based on whether or not one has rejected God.

Using your understanding, would it be fair for God to reward you infinitely in heaven for one single finite good deed?

Another good reason to study Ezekiel 18!

It is not my logic, but your logic.

You are saying that the finite infraction of "rejecting" god deserves infinte punishment, right?

 

[workmx]

Mine were not rhetorical.

Oh dear. So, you confirm your confirmation bias?

Can the Creator of the universe do as He likes in His own universe? Of course! Is He a dictator of the human sort? Of course not. No human dictator has the right to act unilaterally as the Creator of the universe does. God did not consult us before making everything and He doesn't consult us about its continued existence, either.

Have you heard of Stockholm Syndrome?

Why do you want to worship a celestial dictator?

No, God did not create sin. He gave us the capacity to freely choose to obey Him or not, to love Him or not, and when humans choose to live without God, to despise and disobey Him, they sin.

Jesus came to save us from the consequences of our sin. We all sin; we all need forgiveness. God extends it to us through His Son.

God the Father and God the Son are one in essence but not in role. God the Father did not die on the cross; God the Son did. The shell, white, and yolk of an egg are all the egg, but they are not all identical. Not a perfect analogy, granted, but useful as far as it goes.

Ah! Got it. So, humans are more powerful than god? And can create things that god cannot, right?

Why?

Let's look at this rationally: we have second hand accounts written along time ago about a person that the authors could not confirm existed.

Those second hand accounts tells us of a man who by today's standards would likely be considered to be mentally ill (delusional disorder of the grandiose type), who was probably a rogue dooms day prophet with a limited number of followers.

By what metric is that relevant to anyone living today?

But you don't appear to be "trying to find out." You seem very much as though you have already made up your mind about what is true about God and the Christian faith and want to challenge Christian believers about their faith as a result.

Well, I guess I have lots of questions for which I would like to find rational and reasonable answers.

I though that this would be a good place to ask.

Am I wrong?

 

[Joshua260]

If hell is real, it does mean god is not all loving (a truly loving being would not mandate an infinite punishment for a finite crime).

I'm interested in hearing your answer to my previous question:
Using your understanding, would it be fair for God to reward you infinitely in heaven for one single finite good deed?

It seems that the christian god is not all loving.
This god only loves people who love him first and unconditionally.

The bible says "We love him, because he first loved us." 1 John 4:19.

If God was not all loving, then the bible would not have also included John 3:16, which says "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.

So, God has completed the work of salvation through the death, burial, and resurrection of his only begotten son Jesus Christ for your eternal benefit, and has thus clearly demonstrated his love to all of his creation.

So not only did he love us first, but he has also offered his saving grace to everyone.

You are saying that the finite infraction of "rejecting" god deserves infinte punishment, right?

I'm saying that you posses a fallen nature. God is reaching out to you with an offer of salvation to remake you into a saved creature. You can freely accept or reject that offer. It's up to you.

 

[aiki]

Oh dear. So, you confirm your confirmation bias?

I take it you are not going to answer my questions, then? In case you've forgotten what they were, here they are again:

"Why are you being so simplistic in your consideration of Christ's words? And why are your only conclusions about his motives evil ones? What's your beef with Jesus? Why are you so eager to see him in a bad light?"

Have you heard of Stockholm Syndrome?

Why do you want to worship a celestial dictator?

Yes, I have heard of Stockholm Syndrome.

I don't worship a "celestial dictator." I worship the Creator of Everything because He is absolutely worthy of my worship. God isn't a dictator, which is a distinctly human thing; He is the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End of all that exists. We are all utterly contingent upon Him. Calling God a "celestial dictator" doesn't really get it right. God is the Maker and Sustainer of the universe. Without Him, there is no universe. No human dictator has ever lived of whom this is true.

Ah! Got it. So, humans are more powerful than god? And can create things that god cannot, right?

I think you know that this is neither what I believe or meant by what I wrote. Why are you being willfully obtuse?

Let's look at this rationally: we have second hand accounts written along time ago about a person that the authors could not confirm existed.

Well, if being rational is your goal, you've already failed to be so. First, the Gospels offer eye-witness testimony to the life and deeds of Christ, which is powerful evidence in any court of law today. It is perfectly rational to give serious weight to such testimony. Second, the fact that a thing was "written a long time ago" does not mean it is therefore false. We could know nothing of human history if the mere passage of time was enough to make all records of the past untrue. It is, then, quite irrational to discount the New Testament accounts of Christ simply because they are old. Third, the main subject of the Gospels, Jesus Christ, is a well-attested historical figure. He most certainly existed. For a thorough treatment of the historical evidence for Jesus Christ read "The Historical Jesus," by Dr. Gary Habermas. In light of the substantial evidence for the historicity of Jesus, it is not particularly rational to doubt his existence.

Those second hand accounts tells us of a man who by today's standards would likely be considered to be mentally ill (delusional disorder of the grandiose type), who was probably a rogue dooms day prophet with a limited number of followers.

See, it is stuff like this that clearly shows that you have a distinct bias against Christian belief. You are not an inquirer open to where the facts may lead but an attacker already convinced Christianity is nonsense. Many brilliant men over the last 2000 years or so have hailed Jesus as the wisest and most moral man to ever live. Millions have concluded, not that Jesus was insane, but that he truly was who he claimed to be. Christ's followers necessarily began as a minority but within four centuries had transformed the Roman Empire without a single violent act.

By what metric is that relevant to anyone living today?

As you have characterized it, it is not at all relevant. But how you frame the Christian worldview and how Christians frame it are far removed from one another.

Selah.

 

[dcalling]

But why love a god that sends people to hell.

IMO, that sounds like an abuse victim who is forced to love their abuser.

Are you saying that religion is a variant of Stockholm Syndrome?

You need law and order. Do you want to live in a country where there is no law, no police and you can get robbed every day and no one will intervene?

God loves everyone equally, the sun shines on good and bad, and all have air to breath. The law can be used to let the bad guys know what they did is not in line with God, and God is pure so he will not allow any evil in heaven.

Everyone can go to heaven if they obey the law (don't kill, don't steal etc).
The law is intended for the good of people. An abuser is likely intended to please himself.

 

[Ellwood3]

Hello workmx,

I will look at your very first question, "Everyone goes to hell, right?"


No, everyone will not go to hell. I will define the term.

The word "hell" has been placed in the Holy Scriptures by translators. It is not in there on its own. In the Old Testament the name for where the spirits of the dead go is called Sheol in Hebrew, or Hades in Greek. Yet some translators variously translate Sheol/Hades as 'hell,' 'the pit,' or 'the grave,' and that only confuses things. These are different places.

The Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament or “Tanakh”) uses the Greek word “Hades” for Sheol. The New Testament also uses the word Hades, because the New Testament has been translated into English from the Greek.

So what is 'Hades'?

It is not the same as ‘hell.’

In Old Testament times, people spirits went to Sheol/Hades. Paradise, a place for those eventually who would be in the presence of God, was in Hades. A separate place in Hades was for the wicked. In Hades there is a divide that is not crossable, between the righteous and those will go before the Great White Throne.

When Christ entered Hades, after His death, before His resurrection, he preached to the departed spirits on both sides of the divide, and then took with Him the spirits who are His to Heaven. Today when people who are His die, they go where He is.

But this 'heaven' is not their final place of joy. The Bible says Jesus Christ and His Father will be with His children on a new earth, under a new heaven. Christ can make all things new.

The place after final judgment where punishment occurs is not Sheol (in Hebrew, in Greek called Hades--again, those are two names in two different languages for the same thing).

The place often thought of as ‘hell’ is known as the Lake of Fire. It is the future home of the False Prophet and the Beast, who will later be joined by the devil. After The Judgment, Death and Hades will also go to "perdition"--to the Lake of Fire.

So no, not everyone will go to the Lake of Fire. Those who are in Christ Jesus will stay with Him.

Not everyone will go to Hades. That's a place for those waiting judgment.

(If by 'hell' you mean a place of final torment where the devil and the demons have fun persecuting people--that image is from culture, not from the Bible. The devil and demons will not have fun being in the Lake of Fire.)

And yes, there are people who are in heaven now--and there is coming a still better place in the future. There is a story, a plan--a war--taking place. The winner is absolutely guaranteed.

Becoming certain of which side you are on God's side is a good idea.

So you know that Jesus saying there will be greater and lesser ones in heaven is not saying “everyone will go to hell.” What it does tell you is that there are rewards in heaven, and people’s experience there will depend partly on what we do here.




The way to begin is with asking for God's help in finding the Truth, which is Jesus Christ. Whether or not you pray the following prayer is up to you; you don't need to tell anyone here.

Jesus Christ, if You exist and if You have made a way for me to be saved from the Lake of Fire, and to take me to Heaven for eternity, Jesus please save me. Help me to learn about You, and be with me and help me to be a good servant and to someday hear You say to me, "Well done, good and faithful servant."



ASLEEP IN THE LIGHT, Song by Keith Green; the art is based on the vision of William Booth, founder of the Salvation Army:



Asleep In The Light - YouTube



Study the 4 Terms for Hell in the Bible

 

[workmx]

So, God has completed the work of salvation through the death, burial, and resurrection of his only begotten son Jesus Christ for your eternal benefit, and has thus clearly demonstrated his love to all of his creation.

So not only did he love us first, but he has also offered his saving grace to everyone.

I'm saying that you posses a fallen nature. God is reaching out to you with an offer of salvation to remake you into a saved creature. You can freely accept or reject that offer. It's up to you.

The christian god in this case is loving only to some, thus not all loving.

Thanks for proving my point.

I'm interested in hearing your answer to my previous question:
Using your understanding, would it be fair for God to reward you infinitely in heaven for one single finite good deed?

Deflection does not work.

Currently, I do not have a belief about heaven or hell.

I am exploring christianity (You know: the TITLE of this part of the forum).

It is christianity that sets up the doctrine of hell/heaven.

So, if you are a christian, YOU have to defend.

I am happy to answer questions on fairyland however.

The bible says "We love him, because he first loved us." 1 John 4:19.

If God was not all loving, then the bible would not have also included John 3:16, which says "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16.

Maybe we are using a different defintion of "all loving".

I take it to mean loves all humans, in all places and all times equally.

That all loving god would not care if people believe in it or not.

If your god is not that one, I suggest it is not all loving.

 

[workmx]

You need law and order. Do you want to live in a country where there is no law, no police and you can get robbed every day and no one will intervene?

God loves everyone equally, the sun shines on good and bad, and all have air to breath. The law can be used to let the bad guys know what they did is not in line with God, and God is pure so he will not allow any evil in heaven.

Everyone can go to heaven if they obey the law (don't kill, don't steal etc).
The law is intended for the good of people. An abuser is likely intended to please himself.

But there is no evidence that morality comes from the supernatural.

In fact, the opposite is the case, there is good evidence that the pillars of morality are common in othe mammals.

I think it is clear that there is a natural explanation for this.

 

[workmx]

Hello workmx,

I will look at your very first question, "Everyone goes to hell, right?"

No, everyone will not go to hell. I will define the term.

The word "hell" has been placed in the Holy Scriptures by translators. It is not in there on its own. In the Old Testament the name for where the spirits of the dead go is called Sheol in Hebrew, or Hades in Greek. Yet some translators variously translate Sheol/Hades as 'hell,' 'the pit,' or 'the grave,' and that only confuses things. These are different places.

The Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament or “Tanakh&#8221 uses the Greek word “Hades” for Sheol. The New Testament also uses the word Hades, because the New Testament has been translated into English from the Greek.

So what is 'Hades'?

It is not the same as ‘hell.’

In Old Testament times, people spirits went to Sheol/Hades. Paradise, a place for those eventually who would be in the presence of God, was in Hades. A separate place in Hades was for the wicked. In Hades there is a divide that is not crossable, between the righteous and those will go before the Great White Throne.

When Christ entered Hades, after His death, before His resurrection, he preached to the departed spirits on both sides of the divide, and then took with Him the spirits who are His to Heaven. Today when people who are His die, they go where He is.

But this 'heaven' is not their final place of joy. The Bible says Jesus Christ and His Father will be with His children on a new earth, under a new heaven. Christ can make all things new.

The place after final judgment where punishment occurs is not Sheol (in Hebrew, in Greek called Hades--again, those are two names in two different languages for the same thing).

The place often thought of as ‘hell’ is known as the Lake of Fire. It is the future home of the False Prophet and the Beast, who will later be joined by the devil. After The Judgment, Death and Hades will also go to "perdition"--to the Lake of Fire.

So no, not everyone will go to the Lake of Fire. Those who are in Christ Jesus will stay with Him.

Not everyone will go to Hades. That's a place for those waiting judgment.

(If by 'hell' you mean a place of final torment where the devil and the demons have fun persecuting people--that image is from culture, not from the Bible. The devil and demons will not have fun being in the Lake of Fire.)

And yes, there are people who are in heaven now--and there is coming a still better place in the future. There is a story, a plan--a war--taking place. The winner is absolutely guaranteed.

Becoming certain of which side you are on God's side is a good idea.

So you know that Jesus saying there will be greater and lesser ones in heaven is not saying “everyone will go to hell.” What it does tell you is that there are rewards in heaven, and people’s experience there will depend partly on what we do here.

The way to begin is with asking for God's help in finding the Truth, which is Jesus Christ. Whether or not you pray the following prayer is up to you; you don't need to tell anyone here.

Jesus Christ, if You exist and if You have made a way for me to be saved from the Lake of Fire, and to take me to Heaven for eternity, Jesus please save me. Help me to learn about You, and be with me and help me to be a good servant and to someday hear You say to me, "Well done, good and faithful servant."

Not a bad exposition on hell in the bible.

There is also the word "gehenna" which some translate as hell, but it was more likely a garbage dump.

My suspicion is that all of the doctorine about hell is extra-biblical.

The three original terms that are used in the bible were Sheol, Tartarus and Gehenna. The first of these relating to graves/death.

As you say, the greeks subsitiuted the word hades for all three, probably to accomodate their belief in the underworld.

With that in mind, my version of the hell/heaven myth is that god gaves us two options: either go to heaven or die.

That is all.

IMO, that would be a more biblically consistent version of the afterlife, if such a thing exists.

Having said that it does not get around the problem that a truly all loving god would want everyone to go to heaven.

 

[dcalling]

But there is no evidence that morality comes from the supernatural.

In fact, the opposite is the case, there is good evidence that the pillars of morality are common in othe mammals.

I think it is clear that there is a natural explanation for this.

Where is the evidence that morality are common in other mammals?

Even if morality is common in other mammals, how does that prove morality is not from supernatural?

Where is your proof that there are natural explanation of morality?

 

[workmx]

Where is the evidence that morality are common in other mammals?

Even if morality is common in other mammals, how does that prove morality is not from supernatural?

Where is your proof that there are natural explanation of morality?

Some accuracy is important here: I said

evidence that the pillars of morality are common in other mammals

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcJxRqTs5nk

 

[aiki]

Maybe we are using a different defintion of "all loving".

I take it to mean loves all humans, in all places and all times equally.

This is what we read of God in the Bible. It is what Joshua260 was drawing your attention to in referencing John 3:16. God loves "the world," which means everybody. God is not all-loving in the sense that there is nothing He hates, however. God hates sin; it is anathema to Him. And He will judge and punish all sin.

That all loving god would not care if people believe in it or not.

Well, in a sense, God does not care whether we believe in Him or not. He loves us even when we regard Him as an enemy. God is, after all, perfect, which means, in part, that He needs nothing - not our belief, or our fidelity, or our love. His love toward us is completely gratuitous; it is sheer extravagance. God loves us when He hasn't the slightest need to do so. As a result, God is not holding His breath, hoping desperately that we might love Him. He loves us freely and gives us the opportunity to respond to Him in kind. However we choose to respond, God remains in a state of unperturbed perfection. We, though, have a profound need of fellowship with our Creator. It is what we were made for. And when we live without loving fellowship with Him, we will never be truly fulfilled and satisfied.


Selah.

 

[Joshua260]

The christian god in this case is loving only to some, thus not all loving.

As aiki already pointed out, "the world" in John 3:16 includes everyone, and thus contradicts your assertion.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Deflection does not work.

My question was not a deflection, but rather quite relevant to your assertion:
"If hell is real, it does mean god is not loving (a truly loving being would not mandate an infinite punishment for a finite crime)."

So there's no reason why you shouldn't address my opposing question:
"would it be fair for God to reward you infinitely in heaven for one single finite good deed? "

 

[workmx]

As aiki already pointed out, "the world" in John 3:16 includes everyone, and thus contradicts your assertion.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

My question was not a deflection, but rather quite relevant to your assertion:
"If hell is real, it does mean god is not loving (a truly loving being would not mandate an infinite punishment for a finite crime)."

So there's no reason why you shouldn't address my opposing question:
"would it be fair for God to reward you infinitely in heaven for one single finite good deed? "

But everyone in the world is not saved, right.

So, by definition the christian god is not all loving.

Love is not condititonal.

As I am not a christian, I am not obliged to defend christian doctrine.

So, my answer is: I don't know.

 

[workmx]

By the way, many of my questions are still unanswered, like:

Why love a god that sends people to hell?

You are saying that the finite infraction of "rejecting" god deserves infinte punishment, right?

So, you see why I state that your question is a deflection (it is clear that it is a trap and even more clear is that it is a deflection from the OP, which is about hell).

 

[workmx]

Well, in a sense, God does not care whether we believe in Him or not. He loves us even when we regard Him as an enemy. God is, after all, perfect, which means, in part, that He needs nothing - not our belief, or our fidelity, or our love. His love toward us is completely gratuitous; it is sheer extravagance. God loves us when He hasn't the slightest need to do so. As a result, God is not holding His breath, hoping desperately that we might love Him. He loves us freely and gives us the opportunity to respond to Him in kind. However we choose to respond, God remains in a state of unperturbed perfection. We, though, have a profound need of fellowship with our Creator. It is what we were made for. And when we live without loving fellowship with Him, we will never be truly fulfilled and satisfied.

Then the question remains: If god needs nothing from us, why send people who do not believe in it to hell?

This is making less and less sense the more we talk about it. :o

 

[aiki]

Then the question remains: If god needs nothing from us, why send people who do not believe in it to hell?

This is making less and less sense the more we talk about it. :o

I may not need the extra lawn mower I own, but if I caught someone stealing it, I would still object to them doing so. In the same way, just because God does not need us to love Him doesn't mean He ought not to object to our wicked behaviour. God is loving, but He is also holy and just. In fact, His love reflects His holiness and justice in that it does not embrace everything indiscriminately. God's holy love precludes accepting what is evil. And for those who reject His love and who fail to conform to God's holy standard, hell awaits.

Selah.

 

[Joshua260]

But everyone in the world is not save, right.

So, by deifntion the christian god is not all loving.

Love is not condititonal.

By definition? You're using faulty logic again. Your conclusion that God is not all-loving does not follow from the reality that not everyone gets saved. Those who reject salvation do so freely.

As I am not a christian, I am not obliged to defend christian doctrine.

So, my answer is: I don't know.

Who's asking you to defend Christian doctrine? I'm just asking you a logical question. For some reason, you feel confident enough to assert that it isn't fair that somebody gets infinitely punished for a finite crime, but you can't seem to figure out whether it's fair if somebody gets infinitely rewarded for a finite good deed.

 

[workmx]

I may not need the extra lawn mower I own, but if I caught someone stealing it, I would still object to them doing so. In the same way, just because God does not need us to love Him doesn't mean He ought not to object to our wicked behaviour. God is loving, but He is also holy and just. In fact, His love reflects His holiness and justice in that it does not embrace everything indiscriminately. God's holy love precludes accepting what is evil. And for those who reject His love and who fail to conform to God's holy standard, hell awaits.

Cool. So god is not all loving.

Got it.