Everyone goes to hell, right?

[workmx]

No, God is not all-loving. He would be an evil God if He was.

Thanks. That is refreshing.

It seems to me that God's omniscience allows Him to foresee not only what will be, but what would have been under different circumstances. This means, in part, that God could foresee which world out of all possible worlds would contain the greatest number of people who would freely choose to accept His offer of salvation. Since God is a loving, gracious God, it would be this world He would actualize. THe world in which we live, then, is the one world out of all possible worlds where the greatest number of people will freely choose to accept the gift of salvation and avoid damnation. God does good, then, in actualizing this maximally-redemptive world. Any other world would have had fewer saved people in it.

Why would God create a world where He knew some would freely choose to be damned? Because He knew there would be others in that world who would freely choose to be saved.

Are you sur that free will and omniscinece are compatible?

 

[aiki]

Are you sure that free will and omniscience are compatible?

Pretty sure. See Molinism.

Selah.

 

[NannaNae]

It says " shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven", not "goes to hell". That is a huge difference.

And given the examples of some of the "scribes and Pharisees" in the Bible, I doubt Jesus is using them as an good example here.

heck yah! I'll take heaven lite over hell lite any day! \I also know what heaven heavy is going to cost.... they are going to deserve being right there with the Holy one of all creation. the dreamer of all of this .. is holy and any who make that " heaven heavy " is definately going to be something worthy of honor .. obviously the best of humanity. with the most love for God and man..

LOOK at Abraham not only did he love God with everything he had and more, he left his home to follow god .. he also love Mechezekec and gave honor where honor was due.. . he and his men also fought off evil that stole captives from many nations including sodom. .. then Abraham set all the captives free so that they didn't have to go back to Sodom, so that they didn't have to be slaves to the king of Sodom or anyone .. Abraham was truly be a good father to his men and everyone else around him.. Abraham could have been even richer than he was, but instead gave them men their freedom.. even if they just wanted to go back to sodom, they at least then had a choice not to because of Abraham .... he redeemed lots of slaves and captives from that fate that would befall sodom next .. He loved people and gave them the chance to make their own choices..
So if say GOD wanted to take over this miserable world and make everyone do what he wanted like he is accused of....
God sure could have picked more lawful or more brave men than Abraham.
. But instead he identified with Abrahams heart and he knew that Abrahams was the perfect choice to reveal God's age or times of mercy and redemption from something far worse than Sodom ..
but that time of mercy must come to an end.
because a day comes when he has to use other means because he has made other promises and other commitments and it is not like he didn't tell anyone about that time change in plans.
I sure don't believe any of us christian will be upset with heaven lite or heaven heavy..
we just want to do what he has for us to do, because there is no greater joy than do what what the creator of the universe is doing and we will be content with whatever it is he gives us.

 

[workmx]

Pretty sure. See Molinism.

I thought you might try that approach.

So, all you have to do is present evidence that free will exists.

 

[workmx]

heck yah! I'll take heaven lite over hell lite any day! \I also know what heaven heavy is going to cost.... they are going to deserve being right there with the Holy one of all creation. the dreamer of all of this .. is holy and any who make that " heaven heavy " is definately going to be something worthy of honor .. obviously the best of humanity. with the most love for God and man..

LOOK at Abraham not only did he love God with everything he had and more, he left his home to follow god .. he also love Mechezekec and gave honor where honor was due.. . he and his men also fought off evil that stole captives from many nations including sodom. .. then Abraham set all the captives free so that they didn't have to go back to Sodom, so that they didn't have to be slaves to the king of Sodom or anyone .. Abraham was truly be a good father to his men and everyone else around him.. Abraham could have been even richer than he was, but instead gave them men their freedom.. even if they just wanted to go back to sodom, they at least then had a choice not to because of Abraham .... he redeemed lots of slaves and captives from that fate that would befall sodom next .. He loved people and gave them the chance to make their own choices..
So if say GOD wanted to take over this miserable world and make everyone do what he wanted like he is accused of....
God sure could have picked more lawful or more brave men than Abraham.
. But instead he identified with Abrahams heart and he knew that Abrahams was the perfect choice to reveal God's age or times of mercy and redemption from something far worse than Sodom ..
but that time of mercy must come to an end.
because a day comes when he has to use other means because he has made other promises and other commitments and it is not like he didn't tell anyone about that time change in plans.
I sure don't believe any of us christian will be upset with heaven lite or heaven heavy..
we just want to do what he has for us to do, because there is no greater joy than do what what the creator of the universe is doing and we will be content with whatever it is he gives us.

Have you ever wondered if heaven is just a myth to keep humans from going insane in the face of the knowledge of our unavoidable death?

 

[aiki]

I thought you might try that approach.

So, all you have to do is present evidence that free will exists.

I think Molinism does that pretty well...Why do you think it does not?

Selah.

 

[NannaNae]

Have you ever wondered if heaven is just a myth to keep humans from going insane in the face of the knowledge of our unavoidable death?

NO I know it is real!
I saw Ezekials temple before I knew there was one.. at 12 .. I hadn't heard of it ever.
I have also been to the new jerusalem.

you can see where I talked a little about it if you search for

" swish in the darkness" was me under another name..

the dream wasn't about heaven at all.
it was about salvation and what salvation is and isn't .
he just happened to show me my place he will create me to be..in his new world.

you know I did have a few debates with him about why He thought that living in a city was a good reward for me.. I told him a fig tree on the back forty was way more my style.. I don't like cities !

that city just didn't sound like a reward to me! but I would try and be content in the city..

anyway He want on to explain to me a lot of things about what heaven is and isn't , and why I was going to love it , but when he was done with me....
I think He has better handle on what it is and isn't than an atheist does , don't you?

in the mean time I will believe in him and his ideas! so thanks anyway , you may fear death but I don't !

 

[workmx]

I think Molinism does that pretty well...Why do you think it does not?

I didn't say that.

I implied was that your reply was predictable:

I thought you might try that approach.

So, all you have to do is present evidence that free will exists.

So, about that evidence?

 

[workmx]

NO I know it is real!

I saw Ezekials temple before I knew there was one.. at 12 .. I hadn't heard of it ever.
I have also been to the new jerusalem.

you can see where I talked a little about it if you search for

" swish in the darkness" was me under another name..

the dream wasn't about heaven at all.
it was about salvation and what salvation is and isn't .
he just happened to show me my place he will create me to be..in his new world.

you know I did have a few debates with him about why He thought that living in a city was a good reward for me.. I told him a fig tree on the back forty was way more my style.. I don't like cities !

that city just didn't sound like a reward to me! but I would try and be content in the city..

anyway He want on to explain to me a lot of things about what heaven is and isn't , and why I was going to love it , but when he was done with me....
I think He has better handle on what it is and isn't than an atheist does , don't you?

in the mean time I will believe in him and his ideas! so thanks anyway , you may fear death but I don't !

In order to know something you just be able to justify your belief in it.

Can you justify your belief in gods and heaven?

As for something being real: most would say that heaven and gods are supernatural.

Therefore by definition gods and heaven cannot be real.

 

[NannaNae]

In order to know something you just be able to justify your belief in it.

Can you justify your belief in gods and heaven?

As for something being real: most would say that heaven and gods are supernatural.

Therefore by definition gods and heaven cannot be real.

there is more real than here is.. this is just a shadow. he wouldn't give real To men to destroy if they wished too ! he only gave the shadow part.
you might want to see one of my posts about the youth who saved a woman from a burning fuel tanker and what happened to him..
I know that kid well... he didn't even smell like smoke..
you know what that really means.. it means it wouldn't matter if he was thrown in hell... he is not going to burn. the kid has relied the one who overcomes this world. it is just a shadow of what is real.
now that is salvation.



I will believe in great white hunters and fishers of men and every kind of eyewitness . Over tiny minds who just don't get it and are to afraid of his realities and his demands that we push on heaven to challenge him to answer.. like that kid did. like david when he took on Goliath, like daniel and Shadrache and the three who went to the furnace ...
like so many did in the bible and even more have since then.

I'll stick with a really big God who loves up close all who ask and willing to be changed , then he will deal with us up close and personal like.. and stick close and better than any friend..

this is boring !
so I am leaving this thread sorry!

 

[workmx]

there is more real than here is.. this is just a shadow. he wouldn't give real To men to destroy if they wished too ! he only gave the shadow part.
you might want to see one of my posts about the youth who saved a woman from a burning fuel tanker and what happened to him..
I know that kid well... he didn't even smell like smoke..
you know what that really means.. it means it wouldn't matter if he was thrown in hell... he is not going to burn. the kid has relied the one who overcomes this world. it is just a shadow of what is real.
now that is salvation.

I will believe in great white hunters and fishers of men and every kind of eyewitness . Over tiny minds who just don't get it and are to afraid of his realities and his demands that we push on heaven to challenge him to answer.. like that kid did. like david when he took on Goliath, like daniel and Shadrache and the three who went to the furnace ...
like so many did in the bible and even more have since then.

I'll stick with a really big God who loves up close all who ask and willing to be changed , then he will deal with us up close and personal like.. and stick close and better than any friend..

this is boring !
so I am leaving this thread sorry!

That did not make much sense to me.

NN - if you pop back in, could you explain what you were trying to say?

 

[NannaNae]

use the search engine if you want to know more .

 

[workmx]

use the search engine if you want to know more .

No worries.

Okay. I will take that as an admission that you do not have any answers to my questions.

 

[dcalling]

Have you ever wondered if heaven is just a myth to keep humans from going insane in the face of the knowledge of our unavoidable death?

I did considered that (but not to keep the humans sane), however:
1. Even if it is not real, the concept of heaven/hell only help make the human world better, so there is no harm. However if there is really a heaven and you don't want to go, you lose much more (similar to what Pascal said).

2. There are side evidences such as near death experiences, that seems to suggest heaven (or some sort of after life) does exists. Most of NDE can be explained by other physical reasons, but in one of them the patient described the instrutment that used to operate on her head which she could not have seen, so just make the case that stronger (not absolute proven, but make it likely).

 

[aiki]

I think Molinism does that pretty well...Why do you think it does not?
​

I didn't say that.

I implied was that your reply was predictable:

I thought you might try that approach.

So, all you have to do is present evidence that free will exists.
​

So, about that evidence?

I think human free will is self-evident. You do not?

Selah.

 

[workmx]

I did considered that (but not to keep the humans sane), however:
1. Even if it is not real, the concept of heaven/hell only help make the human world better, so there is no harm. However if there is really a heaven and you don't want to go, you lose much more (similar to what Pascal said).

In Pascal's culture there was only one god.

Now we know that millions of gods have been said to exist.

So, which god should I believe exists (and which version of heaven/hell)?

2. There are side evidences such as near death experiences, that seems to suggest heaven (or some sort of after life) does exists. Most of NDE can be explained by other physical reasons, but in one of them the patient described the instrutment that used to operate on her head which she could not have seen, so just make the case that stronger (not absolute proven, but make it likely).

Near death is not death.

No-one has come back from death.

All claims of what happens after death (if anything at all) are pure speculation.

Right?

 

[workmx]

I think human free will is self-evident. You do not?

No.

It may appear self-evident, but that is just your brain fooling you.

 

[dcalling]

In Pascal's culture there was only one god.

Now we know that millions of gods have been said to exist.

So, which god should I believe exists (and which version of heaven/hell)?

It is my believe that the true God is the one described in the Bible. If you want to know why you can read the Bible.

Near death is not death.

No-one has come back from death.

All claims of what happens after death (if anything at all) are pure speculation.

Right?

Correct. But how do you explain that a patient can see the shape of the instrument that was operating on her head during coma? I am simply using this example to show that is it very possible that there are after life.

 

[aiki]

No.

It may appear self-evident, but that is just your brain fooling you.

And how do you know your brain isn't just fooling you?

Selah.

 

[Joshua260]

Originally Posted by dcalling

1. Even if it is not real, the concept of heaven/hell only help make the human world better, so there is no harm. However if there is really a heaven and you don't want to go, you lose much more (similar to what Pascal said).
​

In Pascal's culture there was only one god.

Nope. Pascal ruled out the reasonableness of other faiths (calling out Islam specifically) in his masterpiece, the Pensees, of which his famous wager was only one small part. Atheists typically misrepresent his wager as simply "it's better to blindly believe in the Christian god and be wrong than not to believe in the Christian God and be wrong", but that was not his total argument.

It is more correct to represent Pascal's wager as thus:

"Given that it is equally as reasonable to believe in the Christian god (as opposed to other faiths he ruled out for various reasons) or not, it is better to believe in the Christian god and be wrong than not to believe in the Christian god and be wrong."