Everyone goes to hell, right?

[workmx]

The eternal torture bit is a bit hard to take. I would argue that the idea of Hell is forever being cut off from god, at least in the christian understanding. but then, I don't know of many mainline Christians that believe in hellfire anymore.

Well - that is a reflief.

Yes we have metaphors. Remember too that the culture at that time also was very rooted in an oral interpretation of events. It's not much to use the assumption,like in other cultures that only a certain percentage of individuals had the ability to read or write then. And if going on what was true of other cultures, then such a thing would be a device of the priesthood. And in Jesus' case, that would be the Jewish priesthood.

Also you have to take in another facet into consideration during Jesus' lifetime. The Romans. An invading culture with no ties to either the Jewish aristocracy or the faith. They had their puppets no doubt, but they were puppets. they served Rome, and one of the conditions at that time was the concept that the Emporer of Rome was in fact the son of a god. so anything that challenged that, was in fact challenging Rome. Not good if you are a Palestinian Jew with a group of followers that you don't want to see killed or anyone else that may choose to listen to you. Nor would you want to challenge too harshly the Jewish Priesthood yourself, you still would like to follow the then Jewish practise of making sacrifice in the Temple.

So what do you do? You couch your teachings in an ambiguous but yet fairly easy to unravel (how you unravel it is another story) way. You can thus take the meaning that comes to you in that story and choose to apply it if you feel it is of merit.

I can see this is reasonable, if jesus was just another man.

But wasn't he a god?

This goes to the heart of my confusion about christianity: why did god choose that place at that time?

Why not a time with better communication system and greater freedoms?

Afterall this is god (and an omni-max one at that) we are talking about not an ordinary human.

 

[workmx]

I'm not sure why current peoples have troubles understanding Jesus' parables but He told us why some people in His day did.

Mat 13:12-15 KJV For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. (13) Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. (14) And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: (15) For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

People could hear according to their heart condition and if their condition was hard ( against Yahweh ) they did not understand. Seems fair to me.

But would that men that god is not all loving: this version of god only loves these that loves god first.

Again seems more like (IMO) a sadist than a loving god.

 

[workmx]

Why are you being so simplistic in your consideration of Christ's words? And why are your only conclusions about his motives evil ones? What's your beef with Jesus? Why are you so eager to see him in a bad light?

I could ask you the same:

Why are you being so generous in your consideration of Christ's words?

And why are your only conclusions about his motives good ones?

What's your beef with the actual word of the bible?

Why are you so eager to see him in a good light?

Why could it not have been that it was simply not the right time to be plain about who he was and what he was going to do on the cross of Calvary? Maybe Jesus knew that the confusing things he spoke of in Matthew 5 would provoke more thought, more interest, in his words and in who he was than just flatly spelling out his role as the Saviour of the world. Perhaps his sermon provoked many to question him afterward in one-on-one discussions that were never recorded in Scripture. You see? Jesus was not necessarily the incompetent, malevolent, ignoramus you seem to want him to be.

Selah.

As I said above: we are talking about an omni-max god.

Please don't forget this: surely such a god could have chosen any time or place to reveal this information.

Why reveal it to illerate goat-herders?

Why have your only son be forced to speak in riddles to avoid persecution?

Is this the actions of a all-powerful god?

I have serious doubts.

 

[workmx]

Oh, please! What a lot of rubbish! Over the centuries since Jesus walked this earth all the questions one could think to ask have been asked many times. And answers - good answers - have been given. It is ignorance - and perhaps not a little hubris - that prompts you to suggest Christians are generally afraid of inquiry into their faith.

Selah.

I am relieved to hear it.

I will keep asking questions.

 

[workmx]

The quote talks about heaven only, and it is clear even the smallest in heaven is still in heaven. The quotes does not mention hell either.

The quote talks about those who get into heaven and those who do/cannot get into heaven.

I assume there are two afterlife states: heaven and hell.

So, once again I have to ask: are you making the case for third state?

Like purgatory?

 

[workmx]

If you don't see much love in there, you evidently have not read the Gospels.
Honestly, if you want to see what love looks like, look at the cross...

Well I have looked twice (two complete reading of all books of the bible) and not found much love.

The cross is about substitutionary atonement not love.

Substitutionary atonement for a sin that was created by god and inflicted on innocent and unknowing humans.

So, as far as I can tell:
1. the christian god created everything including sin;
2. created innocent humans;
3. created a tree that would destroy that innocence;
4. commanded humans to blind obedience;
5. when they did something they could not have known was bad, god punished them;
6. then unhappy with the humans wiped them out in a flood;
7. then god forgiven humans for this imaginary sin; and
8. sends his son to atone for a sin he created and humans did not know was a sin.

Having read the bible for the second time now, I only get more confused.

Maybe I should have another go at it?

 

[aiki]

Why are you being so simplistic in your consideration of Christ's words? And why are your only conclusions about his motives evil ones? What's your beef with Jesus? Why are you so eager to see him in a bad light?
​

I could ask you the same:

Why are you being so generous in your consideration of Christ's words?

And why are your only conclusions about his motives good ones?

What's your beef with the actual word of the bible?

Why are you so eager to see him in a good light?

This is answering my questions by not answering them. I will answer your questions only if you will first answer mine.

As I said above: we are talking about an omni-max god.

Please don't forget this: surely such a god could have chosen any time or place to reveal this information.

I haven't. But you seem to have. You're quite right, however: as the Supreme Being/Creator of everything God has carte blanche to act as He wishes when He wishes. So, why are you fussing over His conduct and schedule? He's the "Omni-Max" God; He can do as He likes, right?

Why reveal it to illerate goat-herders?

What? Jesus, in Matthew 5, was not speaking to "illiterate goat herders." There were people from widely varying walks of life among his listeners. Even among his own disciples this was true. Luke was a physician; Matthew was a tax-collector; Peter was a fisherman, etc.

Why have your only son be forced to speak in riddles to avoid persecution?

Because Jesus was not come as a conquering king but as the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." Christ's primary objective on earth was to be the Saviour, the Redeemer, of humanity, not create social upheaval and political unrest. If he had fully revealed who he was, his entire divine power and authority, the response of the people would have interfered with his sacrificial purpose.

In any case, it was evident who he was to those who were really carefully looking. He performed countless miracles; he raised people from the dead; he cast out demons; he taught constantly of God's kingdom. Jesus was "hiding" in plain sight.

Is this the actions of a all-powerful god?

Apparently.

I have serious doubts.

Yes, I can see that. But it seems they stem mainly from your thinking that you have a better understanding of how God should have acted than He does. I don't see how, though. You aren't omniscient, or omnipresent, or all-powerful; you aren't transcendent to time and space. How, then, could you possibly know better than God how He should have conducted Himself?

Selah.

 

[Joshua260]

1. the christian god created everything including sin;

Describe the size and color of just one single sin. Sin is not a thing; it is an act that one of God's creatures freely chooses to do.

 

[agua]

But would that men that god is not all loving: this version of god only loves these that loves god first.

Again seems more like (IMO) a sadist than a loving god.

I don't get ya it doesn't mean that at all. It means Yahweh gives everyone the opportunity to come to Him and this is why Jesus died for all. Do you understand the Gospel message ?

 

[dcalling]

The quote talks about those who get into heaven and those who do/cannot get into heaven.

I assume there are two afterlife states: heaven and hell.

So, once again I have to ask: are you making the case for third state?

Like purgatory?

From the bible it is sure there is a heaven, but not clear about hell at all (or if there is a hell), so I can only answer half of your question.

And back to your original question, your quote (see below) has no mention of hell at all:
"For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. "For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."

 

[Lukaris]

Yes there is.

It is in the OP. Here it is again, if you missed it:



Why do christains always want to change the topic when I mention this passage?

Many christians want to talk about St. Paul and Romans.

I want to talk about what JESUS said.

Unless you want to reject jesus, which is, naturally, your right to do.

What you fail to understand is that you are not talking about what the Lord said, claiming the apostles did not talk about what the Lord said, & that Christians do not talk about what the Lord said.

When the Lord said He fulfilled the law he summed it up simply and seriously. He said that we are to treat others as we would hope to be (Matthew 7:12) for that is the law & prophets. He later said that the law & prophets are dependent on that we must love God & our neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40). He came to ease our yoke & burdens (Matthew 11:25-30). The Lord told the rich young man what commands to keep (if the young man would have listened & given thanks, in Matthew 19:18-19) which are the same commands reiterated by St. Paul in Romans 13: 8-10).

This is the way the Gospel was preached to the Gentiles. If you want to see a surviving record of how these commands, the sermon on the mount, weekly worship & sacraments were central to the early Christians (most who did not have many of the old testament scrolls) see the late 1st century Didache: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htm
e rs

 

[workmx]

What you fail to understand is that you are not talking about what the Lord said, claiming the apostles did not talk about what the Lord said, & that Christians do not talk about what the Lord said.

When the Lord said He fulfilled the law he summed it up simply and seriously. He said that we are to treat others as we would hope to be (Matthew 7:12) for that is the law & prophets. He later said that the law & prophets are dependent on that we must love God & our neighbor (Matthew 22:36-40). He came to ease our yoke & burdens (Matthew 11:25-30). The Lord told the rich young man what commands to keep (if the young man would have listened & given thanks, in Matthew 19:18-19) which are the same commands reiterated by St. Paul in Romans 13: 8-10).

This is the way the Gospel was preached to the Gentiles. If you want to see a surviving record of how these commands, the sermon on the mount, weekly worship & sacraments were central to the early Christians (most who did not have many of the old testament scrolls) see the late 1st century Didache: CHURCH FATHERS: The Didache
e rs

Two points:
1. One should also prefer a primary source over a secondary one.
2. The primary source is GOD.

 

[Lukaris]

Two points:
1. One should also prefer a primary source over a secondary one.
2. The primary source is GOD.

I did, Jesus Christ is God, I explained His overall Gospel message, I explained how it was transmitted by the apostles, and I provided evidence of an historical record from ancient Christian community that worshiped according to the Gospel preached by Jesus Christ.

 

[workmx]

I did, Jesus Christ is God, I explained His overall Gospel message, I explained how it was transmitted by the apostles, and I provided evidence of an historical record from ancient Christian community that worshiped according to the Gospel preached by Jesus Christ.

Yet again, I must remind you that secondary sources are... well, secondary. Why not focus on what jesus actually said. Afterall, he is the primary source and GOD.

 

[dcalling]

Yet again, I must remind you that secondary sources are... well, secondary. Why not focus on what jesus actually said. Afterall, he is the primary source and GOD.

Are you imply the secondary sources are in conflict from source of God? If so can you point out?

 

[workmx]

Are you imply the secondary sources are in conflict from source of God? If so can you point out?

No. I am saying what I am saying.

And I have said it twice now.

Got an answer?

 

[dcalling]

No. I am saying what I am saying.

And I have said it twice now.

Got an answer?

You want the primary source, the bible contains the word from God.

 

[workmx]

You want the primary source, the bible contains the word from God.

Okay. So we return to the question of heaven and hell

Are those who are not more righteous than scribes and don't keep the 613 commandments going to hell?

Or are you making the case for third state?

Like purgatory?

 

[workmx]

This is answering my questions by not answering them. I will answer your questions only if you will first answer mine.

You were accusing me of confirmation bias.

I was doing the same.

So, I guess the questions are rhethorical, no?

I haven't. But you seem to have. You're quite right, however: as the Supreme Being/Creator of everything God has carte blanche to act as He wishes when He wishes. So, why are you fussing over His conduct and schedule? He's the "Omni-Max" God; He can do as He likes, right?

So, you god is a dictator?

Because Jesus was not come as a conquering king but as the "Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." Christ's primary objective on earth was to be the Saviour, the Redeemer, of humanity, not create social upheaval and political unrest. If he had fully revealed who he was, his entire divine power and authority, the response of the people would have interfered with his sacrificial purpose.

But god created the sin and then jesus takes it away?

And they are actually the same person?

In any case, it was evident who he was to those who were really carefully looking. He performed countless miracles; he raised people from the dead; he cast out demons; he taught constantly of God's kingdom. Jesus was "hiding" in plain sight.

It is claimed that jesus did those things 2000 years ago. But those are second hand accounts written decades afterwards.

I am not sure that they are reliable.

Yes, I can see that. But it seems they stem mainly from your thinking that you have a better understanding of how God should have acted than He does. I don't see how, though. You aren't omniscient, or omnipresent, or all-powerful; you aren't transcendent to time and space. How, then, could you possibly know better than God how He should have conducted Himself?

I don't. That is the point of being here.

To try to find out.

It is you that knows about god, right?

 

[Lukaris]

Yet again, I must remind you that secondary sources are... well, secondary. Why not focus on what jesus actually said. Afterall, he is the primary source and GOD.

Regrettably, you do not know what you are talking about since I did just that. The 613 laws you keep referring to are fulfilled & the Lord God Jesus Christ told us how these are fulfilled, the apostles & St. Paul preached these in faith to he world & a record from 1st century believers reiterates these commands to love God & neighbor & treat others as you would want to be treated. By the cros,s in which the Lord bore our sins, by His blood, this is what He told us to do in His overall Gospel. This has been the faith for 2,000 years held by all Christians. The prophet Jeremiah said,:

Jeremiah 31:31-34King James Version (KJV)

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith theLord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.