"Ever sinless" Theotokos

[howdydave]

Since I am a former Lutheran, my "Theotokos insight" is still in the developmental stage.

Where does Orthodoxy get it's information about Mary's being ever sinless from?

Didn't Jesus rebuke her twice?
(After they found 12 year old Jesus in the temple and at the Cannan wedding.)

 

[Mikeb85]

I've never heard her called 'ever sinless' - it's certainly not a dogma of the church nor does it ever even occur in our Liturgical texts.... Some Saints (notably St. John Chrysostom) even said she may have sinned... Not to mention, in our Liturgical services we do say that Christ is the only sinless one...

As far as whether or not she's sinless, that's theological opinion (and the opinions of Church Fathers varies), although the consensus of the Church is that for her cooperative role and submission to God's will, we honour the Theotokos first among the Saints...

 

[ArmyMatt]

I heard it best that relative to us she is sinless, relative to Christ she needs a savior. I think the best that I ever heard was that she never intentionally sinned when she was younger, although she might have unknowingly. but then she becomes, and remains all holy once Christ is conceived inside of her. just my opinion, and I could be wrong in this so if I am please correct me.

 

[howdydave]

Thanks!

I think that I got the "ever sinless" out of some Orthodox Prayerbook or another.
I have no problems with the "Ever Virgin" (even Luther called Mary "Ever Virgin")...
It was "Ever Sinless" that got me scratchin' my head!

 

[buzuxi02]

The Theotokos is refered to as "Ever-Virgin". You may have confused that. Though Orthodoxy does believe that the Virgin Mary was sinless as well, but not "ever-sinless". Unlike the Roman church and their dogma of the Immaculate Conception we do not attempt to explain as to 'when' she became sinless nor "how". Neither do we equate this achievement to being on par with Christ, . As your OP points out certain Fathers such as St John Chrysostom did find certain fault with the Virgin Mary on the occasion of the wedding at Cana. Christ is the only immaculate conception "ever-sinless" one.

 

[Protoevangel]

In the Paraklesis, Mary is called the "all-blameless one". Perhaps in a translation, this is modified to read "all sinless" or "ever sinless"...

With most grievous diseases
and corrupt passions too,
I am put to trial, O Virgin;
come thee unto mine aid;
for I know thee to be
an inexhaustible treasure
of unfailing healing,
O only all-blameless one.

​

As far as the so-called "rebuking"... Yes, you are very much still a Lutheran in thought.

At the Temple: "How is it that you sought me? did you not know, that I must be about my father's business?" is hardly a rebuke. It's more of a "Why were you so worried? I thought you would have expected me to be here".

At the Wedding in Cana: "Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come." You mean where He honors her request... even though it was not yet His time? I have no idea how you could interpret that as a "rebuke".

But if He ever did rebuke her, what is that to you? Is He not her Lord?

 

[howdydave]

OK... Forgetting about the term "rebuke"...

Wouldn't the Orthodox concept of sin indicate that:
The doubt about where Jesus was
and
The concern over the wedding

fall under the category of / qualify as "sin?"
i.e.; Missing the mark in our attempt to "Be ye perfect."

IMO: Your last bit: But if He ever did rebuke her, what is that to you? Is He not her Lord?
almost sounds like:
"Forget what the Gospels say about it and stick with the dogma!"

That sounds very un-Orthodox to me.

I lost my Lutheran mindset over a decade ago when I became a Jnani seeker.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Orthodoxy does not require you to believe that Mary was sinless. I personally find that scripture clearly states to the contrary; that is, that all have sinned. The only dogmatic statement about her is that she is the "Theotokos". This says more about the nature of Jesus than it does about Mary. Don't let fringe issues like these get you hung up on the faith.

INXC

 

[Protoevangel]

It sounds as if you have already decided what you want to believe. I will not stand in your way.

Your priest would be a better place to go if you really have concerns.

 

[howdydave]

re: "It sounds as if you have already decided what you want to believe."

Not at all...

I'm just looking at 2 concepts side by side:

Sinless Theotokos
and
The Orthodox definition of sin.

If you are going to use the term "sinless," it is meaningless unless you first define "sin."
Once you have defined "sin," your definition must be consistant throughout your theology.

That's just plain, old, run of the mill semantics!

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Here what St. John Maximovitch had to say about the matter in his article "The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God". Although his opinion here is a minority view in Orthodoxy, it is nevertheless a legitimate one.




The teaching of the complete sinlessness of the Mother of God (1) does not correspond to Sacred Scripture, where there is repeatedly mentioned the sinlessness of the One Mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ (I Tim. 2:5); and in Him is no sin U John 3:5); Who did no sin, neither was guile found in His mouth (I Peter 2:22); One that hath been in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin (Heb. 4:15); Him Who knew no sin, He made to be sin on our behalf (II Cor. 5:2 1). But concerning the rest of men it is said, Who is pure of defilement? No one who has lived a single day of his life on earth (Job 14:4). God commendeth His own love toward us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us If, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by His life (Rom. 5:8-10).


(2) This teaching contradicts also Sacred Tradition, which is contained in numerous Patristic writings, where there is mentioned the exalted sanctity of the Virgin Mary from Her very birth, as well as Her cleansing by the Holy Spirit at Her conception of Christ, but not at Her own conception by Anna. "There is none without stain before Thee, even though his life be but a day, save Thee alone, Jesus Christ our God, Who didst appear on earth without sin, and through Whom we all trust to obtain mercy and the remission of sins" (St. Basil the Great, Third Prayer of Vespers of Pentecost). "But when Christ came through a pure, virginal, unwedded, God-fearing, undefiled Mother without wedlock and without father, and inasmuch as it befitted Him to be born, He purified the female nature, rejected the bitter Eve and overthrew the laws of the flesh" (St. Gregory the Theologian, "In Praise of Virginity"). However, even then, as Sts. Basil the Great and John Chrysostom speak of this, She was not placed in the state of being unable to sin, but continued to take care for Her salvation and overcame all temptations (St. John Chrysostom, Commentary on John, Homily 85; St. Basil the Great, Epistle 160).

 

[Protoevangel]

Here what St. John Maximovitch had to say about the matter in his article "The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God". Although his opinion here is a minority view in Orthodoxy, it is nevertheless a legitimate one.




The teaching of the complete sinlessness of the Mother of God (1) does not correspond to Sacred Scripture, where there is repeatedly mentioned the sinlessness of the One Mediator between God and man, the man Jesus Christ (I Tim. 2:5); and in Him is no sin U John 3:5); Who did no sin, neither was guile found in His mouth (I Peter 2:22); One that hath been in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin (Heb. 4:15); Him Who knew no sin, He made to be sin on our behalf (II Cor. 5:2 1). But concerning the rest of men it is said, Who is pure of defilement? No one who has lived a single day of his life on earth (Job 14:4). God commendeth His own love toward us in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us If, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by His life (Rom. 5:8-10).


(2) This teaching contradicts also Sacred Tradition, which is contained in numerous Patristic writings, where there is mentioned the exalted sanctity of the Virgin Mary from Her very birth, as well as Her cleansing by the Holy Spirit at Her conception of Christ, but not at Her own conception by Anna. "There is none without stain before Thee, even though his life be but a day, save Thee alone, Jesus Christ our God, Who didst appear on earth without sin, and through Whom we all trust to obtain mercy and the remission of sins" (St. Basil the Great, Third Prayer of Vespers of Pentecost). "But when Christ came through a pure, virginal, unwedded, God-fearing, undefiled Mother without wedlock and without father, and inasmuch as it befitted Him to be born, He purified the female nature, rejected the bitter Eve and overthrew the laws of the flesh" (St. Gregory the Theologian, "In Praise of Virginity"). However, even then, as Sts. Basil the Great and John Chrysostom speak of this, She was not placed in the state of being unable to sin, but continued to take care for Her salvation and overcame all temptations (St. John Chrysostom, Commentary on John, Homily 85; St. Basil the Great, Epistle 160).

This is not a "minority view", this that you quoted actually upholds what I've been saying. What Saint John is speaking against here is the false Roman doctrine that the Theotokos was preserved from Original and personal sin. This becomes even more clear if you bother to read the paragraphs before and after the ones you cherry-picked. Even look at the title of the section you pulled that from:

VI.
“ZEAL NOT ACCORDING TO KNOWLEDGE”
(Rom. 10:2) The corruption by the Latins, in the newly-invented dogma of the “Immaculate Conception,” of the true veneration of the Most Holy Mother of God and Ever-Virgin Mary.
​

You may be interested in what Saint John actually had to say about the Theotokos:

... If She could have been placed in, the state of being unable to sin, and did not sin, then for what did God glorify Her? If She, without any effort, and without having any kind of impulses to sin, remained pure, then why is She crowned more than everyone else? There is no victory without an adversary.

The righteousness and sanctity of the Virgin Mary were manifested in the fact that She, being “human with passions like us,” so loved God and gave Herself over to Him, that by Her purity She was exalted high above the rest of the human race. For this, having been foreknown and fore chosen, She was vouchsafed to be purified by the Holy Spirit Who came upon Her, and to conceive of Him the very Saviour of the world. The teaching of the grace-given sinlessness of the Virgin Mary denies. Her victory over temptations; from a victor who is worthy to be crowned with crowns of glory, this makes Her a blind instrument of God’s Providence.

Saint John goes on to say in the section:

VII.
THE ORTHODOX VENERATION OF THE MOTHER OF GOD
​

“Despite the righteousness and the immaculateness of life which the Mother of God led, sin and eternal death manifested their presence in Her. They could not but be manifested: Such is the precise and faithful teaching of the Orthodox Church concerning the Mother of God with relation to ancestral sin and death” (Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov, “Exposition’ of the Teaching of the Orthodox Church on the Mother of God&#8221. “A stranger to any fall into sin” (St. Ambrose of Milan, Commentary on the 118th Psalm), She was not a stranger to sinful temptations. “God alone is without sin” (St. Ambrose, same source), while man will always have in himself something yet needing correction and perfection in order to fulfill the commandment of God; Be ye holy as I the Lord your God am Holy (Leviticus 19:2). The more pure and perfect one is, the more he notices his imperfections and considers himself all the more unworthy.

The Virgin Mary, having given Herself entirely up to God, even though She repulsed from herself every impulse to sin, still felt the weakness of human nature more powerfully than others and ardently desired the coming of the Saviour. In Her humility She considered Herself unworthy to be even the servant-girl of the Virgin Who was to give Him birth. So that nothing might distract Her from prayer and heedfulness to Herself, Mary gave to God a vow not to become married, in order to please only Him Her whole life long. Being betrothed to the elderly Joseph when Her age no longer allowed Her to remain in the Temple, She settled in his house in Nazareth. Here the Virgin was vouchsafed the coming of the Archangel Gabriel, who brought Her the good “tidings of the birth from Her of the Son of the Most High. Hail, Thou that art full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women... The Holy Spirit shall come upon Thee, and the power of the Most High shall overshadow Thee: wherefore also that which is to be born shall be holy, and shall be called the Son of God (Luke 1:28-35).

Then he closes with:

There is no intellect or words to express the greatness of Her Who was born in the sinful human race but became “more honorable than the Cherubim and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim.”“Seeing the grace of the secret mysteries of God made manifest and clearly fulfilled in the Virgin, I rejoice; and I know not how to understand the strange and secret manner whereby the Undefiled has been revealed as alone chosen above all creation, visible and spiritual. Therefore, wishing to praise Her, I am struck dumb with amazement in both mind and speech. Yet still I dare to proclaim and magnify Her: She is indeed the heavenly Tabernacle” (Ikos of the Entry into the Temple). “Every tongue is at a loss to praise Thee as is due; even a spirit from the world above is filled with dizziness, when it seeks to sing Thy praises, 0 Theotokos. But since Thou art good, accept our faith. Thou knowest well our love inspired by God, for Thou art the Protector of Christians, and we magnify Thee” (Irmos of the 9th Canticle, Service of the Theophany).

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Dear Protoevangel,

First of all I apologize if I have offended you in any way.

I agree that he is indeed refuting the concept about the immaculate conception in this section. He says that if Mary didn't have a choice whether to sin or not, then she is not credited for her righteousness. I agree with everything that you posted there, however it in no way contradicts or nullifies the quotes that I supplied. In the process of refuting the immaculate conception, he makes a point that Mary, along with every other human in history, was not completely without sin and he uses scripture and Tradition to support his claim. The doctrine of the immaculate conception requires for her to be sinless, which as he describes, disqualifies the doctrine itself.

I did not "cherry pick" anything out of this article in an attempt to take it out of context to try to purport some agenda of mine, nor did I take it out of context. I merely took the information from the article that is relevant to this conversation at hand. In addition, I left the reference for the very reason that anyone who cared to read the rest of the article may. I can't post links because I don't have priveleges.

In addition, I noticed another reference of his denying her absolute sinlessness in the quote's you posted. If I may:

Originally Posted by St. John Maximovitch

“Despite the righteousness and the immaculateness of life which the Mother of God led, sin and eternal death manifested their presence in Her. They could not but be manifested: Such is the precise and faithful teaching of the Orthodox Church concerning the Mother of God with relation to ancestral sin and death” (Bishop Ignatius Brianchaninov, “Exposition’ of the Teaching of the Orthodox Church on the Mother of God&#8221. “A stranger to any fall into sin” (St. Ambrose of Milan, Commentary on the 118th Psalm), She was not a stranger to sinful temptations. “God alone is without sin” (St. Ambrose, same source), while man will always have in himself something yet needing correction and perfection in order to fulfill the commandment of God; Be ye holy as I the Lord your God am Holy (Leviticus 19:2). The more pure and perfect one is, the more he notices his imperfections and considers himself all the more unworthy.

​

Forgive me a sinner

 

[Monica child of God 1]

I agree with Proto here. The Orthodox view (not a minority opinion) is that the Theotokos could have sinned but that she resisted sin reaching perfection the same way that all humans do: through God's grace and personal struggle. That is what St. John is saying.

Despite the righteousness and the immaculateness of life which the Mother of God led, sin and eternal death manifested their presence in Her.

This is exactly what we believe about the Theotokos. She was born with the seeds of corruption like any other human, but she did not water those seeds by committing personal sins.

M.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

The major difference is in saying she could not have sinned (the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception) and that she did not sin (the Orthodox viewpoint).

M.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

From oca.org Q&A section:

I can say, in short, that the Orthodox Church believes that Mary, as a human being, could indeed have sinned, but chose not to. In the Roman Catholic understanding, it seems that Mary, who according to Roman doctrine had been exempted from the guilt of original sin [the Orthodox do not accept that humans share the guilt of the first sin but, rather, only the consequences] before all eternity, and thus could not have sinned.

M.

 

[Monica child of God 1]

from St. Tikhon's monastery:

Although we do believe the Theotokos had no actual sin, she was born, as were all the descendants of Adam, with the effect of sin upon her human nature. Yet she was brought into the temple at the young age of three, and there she led a life of prayer, fasting and study of the Scriptures. She struggled with the effect of sin upon her human nature and she overcame it. In this respect, she was victorious and did not sin, even though she bore the nature of fallen man. If one were immersed in the services of the Church this would be so natural to believe.

M.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

(2) This teaching contradicts also Sacred Tradition, which is contained in numerous Patristic writings, where there is mentioned the exalted sanctity of the Virgin Mary from Her very birth, as well as Her cleansing by the Holy Spirit at Her conception of Christ, but not at Her own conception by Anna. "There is none without stain before Thee, even though his life be but a day, save Thee alone, Jesus Christ our God, Who didst appear on earth without sin, and through Whom we all trust to obtain mercy and the remission of sins" (St. Basil the Great, Third Prayer of Vespers of Pentecost). "But when Christ came through a pure, virginal, unwedded, God-fearing, undefiled Mother without wedlock and without father, and inasmuch as it befitted Him to be born, He purified the female nature, rejected the bitter Eve and overthrew the laws of the flesh" (St. Gregory the Theologian, "In Praise of Virginity"). However, even then, as Sts. Basil the Great and John Chrysostom speak of this, She was not placed in the state of being unable to sin, but continued to take care for Her salvation and overcame all temptations (St. John Chrysostom, Commentary on John, Homily 85; St. Basil the Great, Epistle 160).
​

The bolded phrase solely refers to her nature after her purification of the Spirit and the conception of Christ. (Whether St. John M. took the original quote from St. John C. out of context is left for debate, however this is the context in which he chose to use it.) That is the context of this passage. It say nothing, however, about her life before conception. It explicitly states that after her purification, she overcame all temptations with the help of the Holy Spirit. I have no difficulty with this passage, and I don't think it contradicts the fact that she was not entirely sinless up until the point of conception.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Monica,

I agree that the majority view of Orthodoxy is that Mary was able to sin but chose not to. What I am contending is that several Church fathers expressed their views that she was not entirely without sin, St. John M. being one of them. That is the minority view that I'm speaking of.

Despite the righteousness and the immaculateness of life which the Mother of God led, sin and eternal death manifested their presence in Her.
​

I believe this said more than a "seed of corruption" was planted in her. It says that corruption, along with sin, manifested their presence in her. That is, sin and corruption became evident in her.

This quote is not as explicit as the previous quotes that I supplied by St. John M. I believe that his article he clearly states that no human was entirely without sin, including Mary, however little sin that may be, and he uses various scriptural evidences as well as Tradition to support his claim. Again, he states that after the purification of the Spirit, she afterwards lived her life resisting all temptations with the guide of the Spirit. I can accept that.

My intentions aren't to nitpick here. However, I personally believe the doctrine of the absolute sinlessness of Mary (throughout the entirety of her life) to be in direct contradition with the scripture and several early Church fathers (as St. John describes in his article). I believe it marginalizes Christ's efforts and uniqueness of being the only "unblemished lamb". Until the Orthodox make this dogmatic, I will rest with the scripture and the witness of the two St. John's on this matter. I have no other choice.

 

[Protoevangel]

You believe what you choose to believe. Ignore the teaching of the Church if you wish. Ignore our hymnography. But as a catechumen, you really need to be learning, not arguing. I have tried to help, but I am not interested in your personal interpretations, your twisting of the Saints words, your SLANDERING the Holy Theotokos. Maybe later you will show a teachable spirit. Until then, go with God. I will only leave you with:

OCA - Q & A - Sinlessness of Mary
Conception of Our Most Holy Theotokos by St. Anna | Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese

Pay attention and learn.