"Ever sinless" Theotokos

[MariaRegina]

I remember starting a thread concerning consubstantiation in the Lutheran forum, but that was back in autumn 2005 I think.

That thread sparked a lively debate as some thought I was accusing them of not believing in the Real Presence while others actually denied the Real Presence. None of them accepted the term "consubstantiation" back then. I learned that there are many different factions within the Lutheran Church and each held different beliefs. It is not monolithic at all. However, that was about four years ago, so I wonder how much has changed since then.

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Here is a link to the Orthodox view on sin. I'll answer the rest tomorrow.

OCA - Q & A - What is Sin?

 

[Mikeb85]

I am not theologian, but I am not sure that the bolded part is Orthodox teaching. Sin is a choice as some level otherwise we negate the vital teaching of Free Will. I would need patristics or some documentation from respected theologians such as Florovsky to change my POV on this particular point (bolded above) and there very well may be. I am not asserting I am right here. I am saying I need real proof to show where I am wrong.

There are many services and personal prayers in which us Orthodox ask God to "forgive us every transgression both voluntary and involuntary, of word or of deed, committed in knowledge or in ignorance", etc...

No. We don't. And considering that the vast majority of the Church holds or held that she is ever-sinless (not proof, but fact) including extremely holy people such as St. Seraphim of Sarov and countless others yet proclaim these words without hesitation (probably more vehemently than you or I), that should offer pause for thought.
You tell him that we do not proof-text the Bible or the Liturgy. Everything is understood in a greater context and most importantly through experience (not theology exams).

I wouldn't necessarily say the majority of the Church believes she was always sinless, but rather the most sinless of mankind (other than Christ of course), the most pure, etc... I look through all the prayers in my personal prayer books, all the prayers I've heard in the many services of the Church, and I've never heard any that refer to the Theotokos as always being sinless. Not to mention, it is said over and over that Christ is the 'only sinless one'.

Of course, as Orthodox Christians, we are to only look at our own sins anyway. From a theological perspective, it's OK to say that the Theotokos may have sinned, however when we venerate the Saints we honour them for their holiness, and ask them to intercede for us as they're already in heaven. So it would be improper to ever think of any of them as sinners.

Personally, I just go with the tradition of the Church as outlined in the communal prayers of the Church, honouring the Theotokos as first among the Saints, etc... No need to insert extra meaning into it.

And as a side note, I must say, I'm exited that this wonderworking icon of the Theotokos is coming to our parish: Pochaev icon "Mother of God" on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Theotokos of Pochayiv - OrthodoxWiki

 

[Ortho_Cat]

Joshua,

Although my intentions were not to offend or to condemn anyone for their beliefs, I think it is abundantly clear that I have done just that. You're right, I'm way out of line here, and I apologize for my ruthless debate-like approach. It's just that I'm so desperately looking for any answers at this point that will make sense to me. As a result, I sometimes get carried away and don't even realize that I'm attacking individual's religious beliefs here, not just abstract concepts.

Well, at this point, I'm certain that i'm doing more harm here than anything else. I respectfully bow out of this thread, (I mean it this time!) and will take it up strictly with my priest from here on out. I sincerely apologize for any offense I have caused, or for anything I've said that may have caused others to stumble.

Respectfully,

Trent

 

[MariaRegina]

Joshua,

Although my intentions were not to offend or to condemn anyone for their beliefs, I think it is abundantly clear that I have done just that. You're right, I'm way out of line here, and I apologize for my ruthless debate-like approach. It's just that I'm so desperately looking for any answers at this point that will make sense to me. As a result, I sometimes get carried away and don't even realize that I'm attacking individual's religious beliefs here, not just abstract concepts.

Well, at this point, I'm certain that i'm doing more harm here than anything else. I respectfully bow out of this thread, (I mean it this time!) and will take it up strictly with my priest from here on out. I sincerely apologize for any offense I have caused, or for anything I've said that may have caused others to stumble.

Respectfully,

Trent

Thanks Trent.

Many of us do believe that the Most Holy Theotokos is also ever-sinless and most pure. Since a modern saint, St. Silouan of Mt. Athos was given that vision of the Theotokos who told him that she never committed a sin, when he was struggling so much as you are, and since that vision gave him tremendous peace of soul, I have to agree with him. My soul is also at peace in honoring her as ever-sinless, most pure, and the Mother of our God.

 

[Joshua G.]

edit.

 

[Joshua G.]

Joshua,

Although my intentions were not to offend or to condemn anyone for their beliefs, I think it is abundantly clear that I have done just that. You're right, I'm way out of line here, and I apologize for my ruthless debate-like approach. It's just that I'm so desperately looking for any answers at this point that will make sense to me. As a result, I sometimes get carried away and don't even realize that I'm attacking individual's religious beliefs here, not just abstract concepts.

Well, at this point, I'm certain that i'm doing more harm here than anything else. I respectfully bow out of this thread, (I mean it this time!) and will take it up strictly with my priest from here on out. I sincerely apologize for any offense I have caused, or for anything I've said that may have caused others to stumble.

Respectfully,

Trent

I respect your humble change of approach on this.

Honestly, take comfort in the fact that the OC does not feel the need to dogmatize every nook and cranny of popular belief. As I told you in a rep last week (I think?) don't lose sleep over this. If your POV helps you make sense out of all of this and gives you peace in the life-saving doctrine of the Church (and Mary's supposed sinlessness has nothing to do with our salvation at all) then I seriously mean and with no ill-intent: good! stay with it! Don't worry about how other holy saints have approached this seemingly conflicting issue. Following their example of what they believed about the specifics of Mary's life is not going to save you or me. Follow their actions in true faith will.

God bless you brother,

Josh

 

[Joshua G.]

There are many services and personal prayers in which us Orthodox ask God to "forgive us every transgression both voluntary and involuntary, of word or of deed, committed in knowledge or in ignorance", etc...

My wording was sloppy. My point is that I don't believe that actually committing sin is an INEVITABLE part of being human. That propensity and struggle is. the above does not suggest inevitability.

I wouldn't necessarily say the majority of the Church believes she was always sinless, but rather the most sinless of mankind (other than Christ of course), the most pure, etc... I look through all the prayers in my personal prayer books, all the prayers I've heard in the many services of the Church, and I've never heard any that refer to the Theotokos as always being sinless. Not to mention, it is said over and over that Christ is the 'only sinless one'.

Push come to shove, if you went to traditionally Orthodox countries and ask heirarchs, clergy, monks and nuns and devout laymen if the the Theotokos ever sinned, I am fairly confident that the vast majority of them would say no, of course not. That doesn't prove that they are correct and Orthocat (for example) is wrong, it only states that this is the pervading perspective throughout the Church and I think that this can be well demonstrated throughout her history as well.

However, with all of that said, I must highlight what you said next:

Of course, as Orthodox Christians, we are to only look at our own sins anyway. From a theological perspective, it's OK to say that the Theotokos may have sinned, however when we venerate the Saints we honour them for their holiness, and ask them to intercede for us as they're already in heaven. So it would be improper to ever think of any of them as sinners.

Amen, brother.

Personally, I just go with the tradition of the Church as outlined in the communal prayers of the Church, honouring the Theotokos as first among the Saints, etc... No need to insert extra meaning into it.

Exactly. there is no need. But others are just following what they have always learned from their priests and mothers while others are just following what their heart compels them to believe as a result of their intimate connection with the Panagia. I think very few Orthodox are insisting she was ever-sinless out of a need to protect the faith from crumbling beneath our feet. I think there is very little (if any) scholasticism involved on the part of those who affirm her ever-sinlessness in personal belief. There are no silly syllogisms to PROVE why she MUST be sinless... it's just a matter of the heart or (on a baser level) heeding what they learned in Church school or from their parents. It's not necessarily catechism worthy... it's a matter of the heart, not the brain or dogma.

And as a side note, I must say, I'm exited that this wonderworking icon of the Theotokos is coming to our parish: Pochaev icon "Mother of God" on Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Theotokos of Pochayiv - OrthodoxWiki

That is wonderful!!!

 

[Joshua G.]

Mike:

Not to beat a dead horse* and I also don't claim the OCA Q&A page to be infallible but to respond to what leads me to believe that it is popular belief in the OC that Mary was ever-sinless, this page offers an example (I think it has already been linked in this thread) where Fr. Mathusiak states simply (and without any proof) that: "Mary, as a human being, could indeed have sinned, but chose not to."

This is not to put those who feel otherwise "in their place" at all. But I don't think the good father would have mentioned this so casually if he had any idea that he were in the minority both historically and contemporarily.

*I know... I am kind of beating a dead horse. But I'm not trying to win, I just feel in my last post, I didn't offer any examples as why I felt so confident that most Orthodox in the world feel this way. That's all.

God bless,

Josh

 

[Kristos]

Paraklesis:

Truly you are worthy to be blessed,
Mother of our God, the Theotokos,
You the ever blessed one, and all blameless one,
And the Mother of our God.
You are honored more than the Cherubim,
And you have more glory, when compared, to the Seraphim;
You, without corruption,
Did bear God, the Logos;
You are the Theotokos;
You do we magnify.

A fountain of pureness
And a tower of safety is she who carried You,

Spotless one,
Who by a word, did bring to us the Word eternal

With the brightness of your eminence;
For you brought forth the Light,
The Divine, which was before all time.

Pure one, fill my heart
with a merriment, a happiness;
Bestow on me your spotless joy,

I am being tested, O Virgin,
Come and bring help to me;
For I have known of you,
That you are without fail
the endless treasure of cures,
Only all-blameless one.

Seems pretty clear me...

 

[MariaRegina]

Of course, as Orthodox Christians, we are to only look at our own sins anyway. . . .

Yes, St. Silouan said that he meditated on hell because that is what he deserved for his sins. We should not look at others and try to see sin when they may have none at all. We are the chief sinners for taking our eyes off Jesus and searching out potential evil in others, especially the Most Pure Theotokos.

O Most Holy Theotokos, save us.

 

[Basil the Great]

If Mary's sinlessness is a doctrine that absolutely requires acceptance, as is affirmed by the RCC, as it relates to all Catholics anyway (per the Papal teaching on the Immaculate Conception issued with the aura of infallibility), then why was this doctrine not taught by the Council of Nicea when the Nicean Creed was formulated? I do not know if the Lord's mother was sinless or not, but if this doctrine is one that is necessary for our salvation, then would it not have been addressed at Nicea?

 

[MariaRegina]

If Mary's sinlessness is a doctrine that absolutely requires acceptance, as is affirmed by the RCC, as it relates to all Catholics anyway (per the Papal teaching on the Immaculate Conception issued with the aura of infallibility), then why was this doctrine not taught by the Council of Nicea when the Nicean Creed was formulated? I do not know if the Lord's mother was sinless or not, but if this doctrine is one that is necessary for our salvation, then would it not have been addressed at Nicea?

It is not necessary for our salvation to believe that Mary was sinless, but if we are going to judge others (judging that Mary must have sinned), then we are failing in Basic Christianity 101 - do not judge.

If the Theotokos had developed any habits of sin, overcoming those sins would have been hard, and the Blessed Virgin Mary would not be entitled to be called blessed - nor would she have said that all generations would call her blessed.

Now this argument taken to its extreme form of literary criticism, could continue to argue that Mary's Magnificat in which she stated that all generations will call her blessed would be a sign of her sinful pride. In fact, that is the thinking of some protestants. Do you see how far this insidious way of thinking can go?

That is why I and many others (including many holy saints) venerate the Most Pure Theotokos as ever-sinless, and most pure, and the Mother of our God.