Ever changed your mind?

Saint Steven

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a text without the context is a pretext for a proof text.....................
I am discussing the context.

Saint Steven said:
I'm not surprised that you disagree.

Saint Steven said:
There you go with your doctrinal hairsplitting again. Your opinion being right and my opinion being wrong. I don't buy the stock answer on that question. And it is a highly debatable gray issue that you paint as black and white.

For me, the answer is in the context of the passage. The Pharisees accused Jesus of using Beelzebub to cast out demons. (thus attributing the work of God to Satan) That is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit in my view. So, when people come around accusing Charismatics and Pentecostals of satanic manifestations, I say that's skating on pretty thin ice. Just because you had culture shock doesn't mean it was the Devil.
 
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Jesus is YHWH

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I am discussing the context.

Saint Steven said:
I'm not surprised that you disagree.

Saint Steven said:
There you go with your doctrinal hairsplitting again. Your opinion being right and my opinion being wrong. I don't buy the stock answer on that question. And it is a highly debatable gray issue that you paint as black and white.

For me, the answer is in the context of the passage. The Pharisees accused Jesus of using Beelzebub to cast out demons. (thus attributing the work of God to Satan) That is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit in my view. So, when people come around accusing Charismatics and Pentecostals of satanic manifestations, I say that's skating on pretty thin ice. Just because you had culture shock doesn't mean it was the Devil.
Is Jesus physically waking this earth casting out demons ? yes or no

like I said:
a text without the context is a pretext for a proof text

next........................................................................
 
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Zao is life

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Recently I read a book titled All you want to know about Hell, it explained 3 famous historic perspectives on the nature, duration and purpose of hellfire.

The three viewpoints were that the fires of hell torment (traditional hell,) the fires consume (annihilationism,) and lastly that the fires refine (universalism.)

Long story short (although the author argued well in favour of each and every perspective) I ended up changing my mind on the topic of hell.

Growing up in a non Christian household I’ve made spiritual changes before, but those changes were always in the general direction of a widely agreed upon Christian orthodoxy.

Changing my mind in the past and accepting the deity of Christ, salvation by grace or the inerrancy of the Bible were big decisions to me personally, but in the grand scheme of things those choices are still rubber stamped by billions of people worldwide (unlike holding to what feels like a novel perspective on hell.)

So, like the short story above, my question is have you ever changed your mind on the subject of faith, morals and worldview to go in an unexpected new direction?
Faith: I also grew up in a non-Christian household and it was the Bible that converted me, which I was only reading because I thought I could find proof of reincarnation in it, and wanted to "prove" to Christians "from their own book" that reincarnation was a fact and reality (because until I was converted to Christ and to Christianity through the Bible, I believed in reincarnation).

Morals and world-view: I accept the Bible's teaching on morals and world-view. The god of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers, and he is not bound.

Hell: From the beginning, the Bible has always changed my mind about anything I was under a false impression about. So once I discovered that there is no word in the original Greek New Testament which translates as "hell", I changed my mind about it. The words which are always translated into the English Bibles as "hell" are Geena, hades and Tartarus - and using one word for all three (making no distinction), creates a simplified castle of mud on the sea's side of the high tide mark, out of a subject the Bible gives vague and scant information about.

In addition to the above words we have the reference in the Revelation to the lake of fire - but hades and Tartarus mean completely different things: All the mentions of sheol in the Hebrew Old Testament are translated as hades in the Greek Sepuaginta - and sheol/hades always seems to refer to the abode of the souls of those who had died., death and hades being two sides of the same coin - both will be thrown into the lake of fire after they have delivered up all the souls in them.

So when someone preaches from the pulpit or reads "hell" in support of what he is preaching, I'm aware that if the word in the verse/s he's preaching on, is hades (not "hell"), then it has nothing to with "hell". It really seems to me that if (if) there is a place of eternal torment or destruction or whatever, no one has gone there yet.

So I still believe that the Bible is my authority - but I do not necessarily accept "historical", "traditional" or "official" interpretations of it.
 
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Scott Husted

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Exactly.
But for the most part, Christians won't even entertain such questions, thinking them irreverent or blasphemous, I suppose. And I understand why they might feel that way. But when the thought presented itself to me, I at least wanted to consider if there was some validity to it. And indeed, I discovered that there was. There were a collection of scriptures that really intrigued me. Why did the Bible say that? There was something going on here under the surface. For example:

1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Titus 2:11
For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people,

I consider it as measuring the sacrifice of God, not unlike David when he numbered Israel (God's first born), or God's reply to Peter that day on the roof about what he had cleansed.

John's reply upon seeing Jesus was Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world ... though later upon being jailed questioned whether he had the right guy ...

Who told you that you were naked is as pertinent today as it was when those words were first written down.
 
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returntosender

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You might feel differently if you learned that you had been predestined to eternal conscious torment. And that only a select few were chosen to not suffer your fate. With no reason given for why this happened. A seemingly random selection.
When will you take responsibility for your own decision?
God gives us a choice. Him or hell, seems simple enough to me. He Doesn't send us to either, we make the choice. Be a man and take your medicine you have chosen.
 
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Cormack

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John's reply upon seeing Jesus was Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world ... though later upon being jailed questioned what he had said ...

I’m curious about this comment. John the Baptist described Jesus as the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, but later “upon being jailed” he doesn’t question the content of that “takes away the sin of the world” claim, rather John questions whether or not he’s found the right man in Jesus.

John “questions what he has said” only insofar that he fears there’s been a case of mistaken identity. Jesus right away appeals to His healings and other miracles to say I’m the man. Maybe it’s just crossed wires on my part.

In addition to the above words we have the reference in the Revelation to the lake of fire

Revelation 20:14 (as you pointed out) even teaches hell (or hades) are “cast into the lake of fire.” So people arguing for the lake of fire to represent that classical picture of hell are out of luck there, since that’s where “hell” is going. It’s rough terrain to master.

I was only reading because I thought I could find proof of reincarnation in it, and wanted to "prove" to Christians "from their own book"

:tearsofjoy: I think those of us born outside of the Christian tradition have all been here, it’s a frustrating time where we’re both “challenging” ourselves in a weird way but also trying to confirm our feelings.

Sadly the internet has probably set a lot of people back, since they are two clicks away from finding an article that agrees with almost anything. It can often slay our ability to reason through a topic.
 
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When will you take responsibility for your own decision?
God gives us a choice. Him or hell, seems simple enough to me. He Doesn't send us to either, we make the choice. Be a man and take your medicine you have chosen.

according to this doctrine we save ourselves ....
 
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Cormack

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When will you take responsibility for your own decision?
God gives us a choice. Him or hell, seems simple enough to me. He Doesn't send us to either, we make the choice. Be a man and take your medicine you have chosen.

The point @Saint Steven was trying to make is that you don’t have a choice, you can’t pull yourself up by your bootstraps and choose life, not in that situation he’s outlined.

@Scott Husted pointed out if you want to fear somebody, fear God. Fear God, be in awe of God, but He’s not your enemy. “Fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and correction.” (Proverbs 1:7.) Steven’s reply to that is (in essence) which God are you fearing, and would you still feel that way if you knew God wasn’t demonstrably just and loving.

Would @Scott Husted feel that God wasn’t his adversary if he knew he was unconditionally elected for damnation before being made, no reason behind his doom provided, created without hope of rescue. God fully capable of saving him but deciding instead to pass by on the other side of the road, hated before the world began.

The heart of @Saint Steven reply is anti deterministic, anti Calvinistic, whether or not he intended for that I’m not meaning to force upon him.

Your reply is more free will, common sense oriented, God’s made a world of truly free creatures and you can “make choice of life,” or throw yourself headlong into an eternity without the author of life and happiness.

Steven’s point is about the character of God, your point is about the character of man.
 
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Cormack

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according to this doctrine we save ourselves ....

No, that’s a common misunderstanding. You’re conflating the believers choice to repent and believe with Gods choice to save. According to that comment we don’t confuse mans choice to repent and believe with Gods choice to forgive and redeem. They’re distinct choices. God saves only after man (or woman) makes a choice to repent and believe.
 
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No, that’s a common misunderstanding. You’re conflating the believers choice to repent and believe with Gods choice to save. According to that comment we don’t confuse mans choice to repent and believe with Gods choice to forgive and redeem. They’re distinct choices. God saves only after man (or woman) makes a choice to repent and believe.

yes we have a will and can make choices but they are not free as in outside the will of our Father

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
 
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Cormack

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yes we have a will and can make choices but they are not free as in outside the will of our Father

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

That’s another topic entirely. You’ve falsely represented @alllivesmatter’s opinion on the nature of choice by presupposing your understanding of the will, not her understanding of the will. She wrote nowhere that man saves himself. Can you think in anyone else’s categories?
 
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That’s another topic entirely. You’ve falsely represented @alllivesmatter’s opinion on the nature of choice by presupposing your understanding of the will, not her understanding of the will. She wrote nowhere that man saves himself. Can you think in anyone else’s categories?

how is it a different topic ! .... you answered for alllivesmatter and then when faced with a verse which brings to naught this worldly self-righteous doctrine you then go about accusing me of your own actions
 
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Cormack

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When will you take responsibility for your own decision?
God gives us a choice. Him or hell, seems simple enough to me. He Doesn't send us to either, we make the choice. Be a man and take your medicine you have chosen.

@alllivesmatter wrote clearly on the subject herself, I’ve argued nothing she hasn’t already shared with the group. You’ve insisted that she’s arguing for “we save ourselves ....” a common misrepresentation. Prove it.

this worldly self-righteous doctrine

The worldly self righteous doctrine “we save ourselves,” right? The doctrine you’re failing to stick onto @alllivesmatter’s message, whilst it’s already been long explained...

No, that’s a common misunderstanding. You’re conflating the believers choice to repent and believe with Gods choice to save. According to that comment we don’t confuse mans choice to repent and believe with Gods choice to forgive and redeem. They’re distinct choices. God saves only after man (or woman) makes a choice to repent and believe.

how is it a different topic !

:tearsofjoy: Determinism and you straw manning users aren’t the same topic.
 
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@alllivesmatter wrote clearly on the subject herself, I’ve argued nothing she hasn’t already shared with the group. You’ve insisted that she’s arguing for “we save ourselves ....” a common misrepresentation. Prove it.



The worldly self righteous doctrine “we save ourselves,” right? The doctrine you’re failing to stick onto @alllivesmatter’s message, whilst it’s already been long explained...





:tearsofjoy: Determinism and you straw manning users aren’t the same topic.


you are arguing on alllivesmatter's behalf that it is up to man to choose to believe in Christ by way of his own free choice and by this choice to be either saved or not, which in effect is man saving himself by his own will ...of which i supplied a verse which clearly states that man can not come to Christ without the Father ....

here is another verse which speaks to the fact our will is not free/separate of Gods will

in Him, in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of the One working all things according to the counsel of His will
 
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Cormack

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you are arguing on alllivesmatter's behalf

I’m arguing on my own behalf that you’ve falsely attributed doctrines to @alllivesmatter that the woman herself hasn’t written.

Prove she’s argued that “we save ourselves” based upon her own presuppositions, not upon your presuppositions. Writing “which in effect is man saving himself by his own will ...” that’s an example of your own presupposition, not hers. You’re not understanding that.

Prove she’s implicitly or explicitly arguing for “we save ourselves,” writing “in effect” is you smuggling in your own confused theological determinism. Prove that’s her point otherwise you’re a gong, mate.
 
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I’m arguing on my own behalf that you’ve falsely attributed doctrines to @alllivesmatter that the woman herself hasn’t written.

Prove she’s argued that “we save ourselves” based upon her own presuppositions, not upon your presuppositions. Writing “which in effect is man saving himself by his own will ...” that’s an example of your own presupposition, not hers. You’re not understanding that.

Prove she’s implicitly or explicitly arguing for “we save ourselves,” writing “in effect” is you smuggling in your own confused theological determinism. Prove that’s her point otherwise you’re a gong, mate.

alllivesmatter's own words

"God gives us a choice. Him or hell, seems simple enough to me."

is this not a life or death decision determined by cause and effect ?

its ironic how you accuse me of presuppositions when earlier you filled my mouth with your own words even though you had no idea what i was referring to and now accuse me of this when i respond to another even though i am well familiar with this false doctrine of free will and have supplied scriptures in support of it not being scriptural ....


perhaps you should give alllivesmatter the opportunity to respond for him/her self ....

 
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Cormack

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You’ve insisted that she’s arguing for “we save ourselves ....” a common misrepresentation. Prove it.

Prove she’s argued that “we save ourselves” based upon her own presuppositions,

Prove she’s implicitly or explicitly arguing for “we save ourselves,”

Prove that’s her point otherwise you’re a gong, mate.

Prove it. :tearsofjoy:

perhaps you should give alllivesmatter the opportunity to respond for herself ....

Oh the irony. See my points and my reading of @alllivesmatter’s message land her smack dab in the middle of Christian orthodoxy. Mine is the most accurate, commonsensical and generous reading of her message. That’s the steel man approach to conversation, where you make the position of the person you’re reading from as strong as possible.

You have straw manned her message to force her outside of the boundaries of Christian orthodoxy, attempting to drive her away from beliefs like saved by grace. Your reading (unlike mine) is the most inaccurate, nonsensical and petty reading of her message.

Come on, gong. You can do better than this!
 
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Saint Steven

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When will you take responsibility for your own decision?
God gives us a choice. Him or hell, seems simple enough to me. He Doesn't send us to either, we make the choice. Be a man and take your medicine you have chosen.
Be a man? - lol
It seems that you know me. Another new username? You must be a record-holder.

That's a HUGE assumption you are making. You are strongly inferring that I have somehow chosen hell.

Which means you believe I am lost and bound for hell due to my posting about the subject. Do you really think that a belief in hell is a requirement for salvation? Chapter and verse please. Thanks.

What is the current population of China? How many of them have even heard the name of Jesus Christ? Are you telling me that they have chosen hell? Apply that same thought back through history. Countless billions predestined to eternal conscious torment with no hope of escape. According to Damnationism anyway. I don't buy it.

Saint Steven said:
You might feel differently if you learned that you had been predestined to eternal conscious torment. And that only a select few were chosen to not suffer your fate. With no reason given for why this happened. A seemingly random selection.
 
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Prove it. :tearsofjoy:



Oh the irony. See my points and my reading of @alllivesmatter’s message land her smack dab in the middle of Christian orthodoxy. Mine is the most accurate, commonsensical and generous reading of her message. That’s the steel man approach to conversation, where you make the position of the person you’re reading from as strong as possible.

You have straw manned her message to force her outside of the boundaries Christian orthodoxy, attempting to drive her away from beliefs like saved by grace. Your reading (unlike mine) is the most inaccurate, nonsensical and petty reading of her message.

Come on, gong. You can do better than this!

you state that i am ... and i quote "attempting to drive her away from beliefs like saved by grace." which again are your words not mine ... when in fact i am speaking to this very thing that we do not save ourselves by our own will as in our own choice ...

For by grace you are saved through faith, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

 
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Saint Steven

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Who told you that you were naked is as pertinent today as it was when those words were first written down.
I have some thoughts on that. But what do you make of the unanswered question? (Who told you that you were naked?)

Devil Talkin'
 
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