Evangelicals who affirm Purgatory

[RileyG]

I'm not sure whether you realise it or not, but you jumped from healing, which ought to be okay to most, to penalty in jail, which is quite different and won't be.

Haha, you are right. I did not realize that at all.

I could not come up witha better analogy for some reason.

 

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

As a Baptist, the way I see it is that if there is Purgatory, then Jesus' sacrifice isn't enough because he paved the way to heaven and paid all our sins.

Then you have a misunderstanding of Purgatory. It is Christ who does the purging (purge-> purgatory) to purify us.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Purgatory is not about the forgiveness of sins; all of a Christians sins are forgiven. Purgatory is about purifying. It is about being set free from the tendency to sin and the harmful habits sins induces in the sinner.

Like I said before - purgatory is not about forgiving sins it is about purifying sinners who are redeemed by the costly sacrifice of our Lord Jesus Christ.

And like I said earlier

While chatting in General Theology I've often noted that evangelicals do in fact believe in purgatory insofar as they believe that at death nearly all Christians have not yet achieved perfect sinlessness and that in heaven everybody is perfectly sinless therefore implying that there is a transition from the state at death to a state of perfection in heaven. The transition is, of necessity, a purgation of whatever is left of sin in each individual's nature. The thing is that Evangelicals - generally speaking - do not give much thought to how this purgation is achieved. To them it is passed over without significant discussion. Catholics, on the other hand, have devoted considerable thought and centuries of discussion to the matter and have thus arrived at the doctrine of purgatory. I presume that having a history of about two thousand years as a Christian church left room for proper consideration and debate on this matter to occur. Many Evangelical denominations are not very old and hence may not yet have had sufficient time to develop their theology fully so if we wait a few hundred years there may be considerable convergence of evangelical theology towards Catholic theology.

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

So, are you implying, as a Lutheran you believe the faithful departed can be purified and prayed for after death?

I believe that they are purified, somehow. I think of heaven and purgatory, however, as coterminious, just like a church or a monastery: Not everybody in church or in a monastery is at the same spiritual level of sanctification, and so too in the "monastery" of heaven/purgatory. So I tend to think of it less as a pilgrimage (where those farther along as distanced from those with a longer way to go) and more as a monastery, where everyone is joined in common worship and common work. And that work, you may be surprised to know, does include praying to Christ for the baptized on earth, although I don't really believe in the concept of patron saints or praying to/through individual saints (except maybe the Blessed Virgin for myself, and maybe, maybe even Sts. John the Forerunner and Peter for others).

And prayed for? I think that's what a funeral is for, so I'm very comfortable with everything that happens in a Requiem Mass. But we have no way of knowing where they are on their post-mortem journey of sanctification, and whether or not they have completed it, so I think of the Requiem as essentially the one great prayer that sends them on their way and wishes them well. And if purgation is instantaneous (which was one option in the post I responded to), then the Requiem very much sends them on their way as one single event, but still a sort of instantaneous purgatory. But after that, even if purgation is a temporal process, our primary contact with the dead takes place within the context of the Mass, when we sing the Sanctus with "all the angels and archangels and all the company of heaven," which includes those who are fully sanctified as well as though still undergoing purgation/sanctification (since they are, as I see it, part of the same community). And how does our Eucharistic communion work when we partake of the fullness of Christ's personal presence when they themselves are longer physical? Does the fullness of grace received by the worshiping community then reflect upon those who no longer (can) receive Christ physically?

There are so many interesting thoughts to be had about sanctification, purgation, and purgatory, but none can really be known. What we do know is that from Scripture (2 Maccabees) there is such thing as praying for the dead, but that is especially within the context of entrusting them to the care of God (the funeral or Requiem Mass), alongside the basic logic that no one completes the soul's journey to perfection in this life. Beyond that we can all have interesting thoughts, but none that any church should make binding dogma. The liturgical practice of the Requiem, rather than abstract dogma of purgatory, is quite enough for me.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

The point is that healing doesn't run counter to any "protestant" non-negotiable doctrines.
Doing time for a sin for which the time has already been paid does.

Some theologians and saints may have talked about "time in Purgatory," but there is no mention of "time" in the actual dogma of Purgatory. If there is any "time" spent there it does not have to be the same kind of "time" that we experience here in this world. The word "purgatory" is related to the word "purge." So the dogma only says that it's a process of final purification. The Church has not defined exactly how this purging happens.

 

[ebia]

Some theologians and saints may have talked about "time in Purgatory," but there is no mention of "time" in the actual dogma of Purgatory. If there is any "time" spent there it does not have to be the same kind of "time" that we experience here in this world. The word "purgatory" is related to the word "purge." So the dogma only says that it's a process of final purification. The Church has not defined exactly how this purging happens.

"Time" in my post is part of the euphemism "doing time", not chronological measurement.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

"Time" in my post is part of the euphemism "doing time", not chronological measurement.

The point remains that the dogma of Purgatory only mentions purification and doesn't mention anything about time. It's possible that some sort of time may be involved, but it's also possible that the final purification happens in an instant. Those of us who go to Purgatory will find out. But the Church leaves the specifics undefined.

 

[ebia]

But the point remains that the dogma of Purgatory only mentions purification and doesn't mention anything about time. It's possible that some sort of time may be involved, but it's also possible that the final Purification happens in an instant. Those of us who end up going to Purgatory will find out the specifics. But the Church leaves this mystery undefined.

Chronology isn't particulaly a big issue.
It's punishment that's the big issue.

 

[Fish and Bread]

The problem is that the word "purgatory" is very intertwined with imagery from the middle ages of prolonged suffering in brutal conditions that people needed to fervently pray to shorten in order to lighten the sentence their departed relatives had to serve, and with traveling priests like Tetzel who went around saying that if only poor people they gave all their money to the Church to rebuild St. Peter's, they could gain indulgences that would help their dead relatives. The Church has kind of moved beyond that imagery, and of course no longer sells indulgences, but the word purgatory is probably not going to be embraced outside of the RCC until they renounces the imagery explicitly, I think.

Do you guys think Rome could conceivably, theologically speaking, ever definitively say that people don't suffer in purgatory and that they are purified instantaneously? Or do the beliefs and teachings in the middle ages surrounding purgatory represent a sensus fildelium of sorts that the Church can't ever officially part ways with, kind of like limbo?

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Chronology isn't particulaly a big issue.
It's punishment that's the big issue.

The specifics of the "punishment" of Purgatory are also undefined by the Church. There are basically two different schools of theological thought on this. Some saints and theologians believe that the suffering is greater than any suffering we can experience here on earth. But then "suffering" has to be defined. The "suffering" involved can be just the fact that we aren't going directly to Heaven. The other school of theological thought says that the suffering is light or that it may even be a pleasant experience. The bottom line is we don't know which it is. Only God and those in Purgatory or the saints in Heaven who had been to Purgatory before being allowed into Heaven know the specifics of what the final purification entails.

Edit:
Upon further reflection, with 1 Corinthians 3:15 there is Scripture support for the belief that Purgatory involves some kind of suffering or pain. So I take back what I said above about "we don't know which it is." I think Purgatory involves suffering or pain of loss. And I think the pain of loss is the pain of being pulled away from our attachment to sin.

 

[ebia]

The specifics of the "punishment" of Purgatory are also undefined by the Church. There are basically two different schools of theological thought on this. Some saints and theologians believe that the suffering is greater than any suffering we can experience here on earth. But then "suffering" has to be defined. The "suffering" involved can be just the fact that we aren't going directly to Heaven. The other school of theological thought says that the suffering is light or that it may even be a pleasant experience. The bottom line is we don't know which it is. Only those who are in Purgatory know the specifics of what the final purification entails.

Again, it's not the specifics of the suffering that are at issue.
It's the notion of punishment.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Again, it's not the specifics of the suffering that are at issue.
It's the notion of punishment.

Why is the notion of punishment problematic? We get punished here on earth, and this is universally accepted as justice. We even get punished for the smallest of offenses. For example, in the United States someone can be punished for jaywalking. Another example is we can get punished here on this website if a mod decides to give us an infraction. So since we get punished for small offenses how much more should be the punishment for offending God? In Scripture, God forgave King David but still punished him. If we go to Purgatory our attitude should be one of humbly accepting whatever punishment God has set for us while there, and we should be glad that going Purgatory means going to Heaven instead of going to Hell.

 

[ebia]

Why is the notion of punishment problematic?

Because it's incompatible with the notion that jesus has taken all the punishment upon himself.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Because it's incompatible with the notion that jesus has taken all the punishment upon himself.

How is it different than how we suffer and are punished for things in this world?

Some saints go straight to Heaven when they die, and those that do fulfilled their purgatory here.

 

[MoreCoffee]

Because it's incompatible with the notion that jesus has taken all the punishment upon himself.

Purgatory is no more incompatible with Christ's work of redemption than is saint Paul's assertion that his sufferings made up what was laking in the sufferings of the Christ is incompatible with the completeness of Christ's work of redemption.

If saint Paul could suffer for the benefit of the church then the faithful can be purged of their falts of character and habit prior to entering God's presence in heaven. In fact it seems that every variety of Christianity teaches that there is a transition from incomplete sanctification at the time of death to complete and perfect sanctification at the time one appears in heaven before God, and that being so every variety of Christianity teaches purgation and hence purgatory.

 

[Saricharity]

Where in scripture is purgatory referenced?

 

[Galilee63]

Dear Jennae,

All throughout Revelations contained within God The Most High's Holy Decree and His Prophesy.

and, Jesus appearing and speaking to the Hearts of many of His Religious and others which directly reflect God's Revelations within His Prophesies.

From my Heart and relationship with Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit and our Blessed Virgin Mary of which I know in my Heart mind body and soul that Purgatory exists with suffering souls:

If Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit sent Jesus of Whom agreed before being conceived of The Holy Spirit and being born of The Blessed Virgin Mary to live on earth, to suffer all through His Young Life to spread God's Holy Word, Holy Commandments, His Holy Ways and Teachings, administer the sick and dying, healing them, suffering His Bitter Passion and Sorrowful Stations of His Cross in order for mankind to be given His Divine Mercy - His Mercy - in His Holy Will for those of whom have turned to Jesus, one needs to ask one self 'what then will I suffer for my sins when Jesus was Loving, Compassionate, Merciful and Pure in His Holy Heart while living here on earth, yet suffered dreadfully, to create and give His Divine Mercy - the Mercy that God The Most High spoke of to His Apostles BC announcing that His Messiah will be forthcoming with His Mercy.

Far too many Saints and every day people have seen Purgatory, Heaven and Hell, many walked through Purgatory, Heaven and Hell with their accounts the same if not similar. All directly reflecting God's Revelations.

FRIENDS OF THE SUFFERING SOULS

marypages.com/

divinemercy.com

gratefulforpurgatory.blogspot.com/2009/11/revelation-from-nun-in...

gratefulforpurgatory.blogspot.com/.../st-gertrude-great-revelation...

One extract to one of Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit's Sisters/Nuns:

Thursday, May 5, 2011

Stations of the Cross for the Souls in Purgatory

We find an incident relating to this subject in the Life of Venerable Mary d Antigna. For a long time she had the pious custom of making the Stations of the Cross each day for the relief of the souls departed; but later, for motives more apparent than solid, she did it but rarely, and finally omitted it altogether. Our Lord, who had great designs in regard to this pious virgin, and who desired to make her a victim of love for the consolation of the poor souls in Purgatory,vouchsafed to give her a lesson which serves as an instruction to us all.

A Religious of the same convent, who had died a short time previously, appeared to her, complaining sorrowfully, " My dear sister," she said, " why do you no longer make the Stations of the Cross for the souls in Purgatory? You were formerly accustomed to relieve us every day by that holy exercise ; why do you deprive us of that assistance ? "

Whilst the soul was still speaking our Lord Himself appeared to His servant, and reproached her with her negligence. " Know, my daughter," He added, " that the Stations of the Cross are very profitable to the souls in Purgatory, and constitute a suffrage of the greatest value. This is why I have permitted this soul, for her own sake and for the sake of others, to implore this of you. Know also that it was on account of your exactitude in practising this devotion that you have been favoured by frequent communication with the dead. It is for this reason also that those grateful souls never cease to pray for you, and to plead your cause at the tribunal of my Justice. Make known this treasure to your sisters, and tell them to draw from it abundantly for themselves and for the dead."


~ Excerpt from Purgatory: Illustrated by the Lives and Legends of the Saints

by Fr. Francis Xavier Shouppe, S.J. ~

gratefulforpurgatory.blogspot.com/2009/11/revelation-from-nun-in...


The Holy work that Jesus Christ our Saviour, God The Most High, The Holy Spirit and The Blessed Virgin Mary are doing up in Heaven, in the Heavenly Realm, the Universe and here on Earth for as many Souls to be saved Eternally is indescribable. For all of this Holy work, God's Loving Holy Blessings, Gifts and Graces some of us are such an ungrateful blind lot, to say the least. Little wonder there exists "Purgatory and Hell" given that we should be turning to Jesus Christ our Saviour/God/The Holy Spirit and our Blessed Virgin Mary daily praising and thanking God our Heavenly Father for all of His Benefits, His intercession at different times during our lives, when for the greater part, Jesus is ignored and our Blessed Virgin Mary, God's Loving Holy Blessed Favoured One is ignored or ridiculed.

Bear in heart and mind that Purgatory exists, Heaven exists and the dreaded Hell exists; some souls remain in Purgatory for 20 years suffering the indescribable heat of scorching flames being cleansed by Jesus' Divine Mercy Holy Rays with some torrents of His Blood cooling down their scorching flames.

I would be offering up (3) Holy Masses for all of the Holy Souls in Purgatory regularly within one's own Parish or any Parish, including one's own Relatives of whom have passed over. This is done through the Priest praying The Most Holy Rosary for The Holy Souls in Purgatory with an amount/offering from our hearts to have the Holy Masses said for them. Jesus is then able to give more of His Holy Blessings, Gifts and Graces to those Souls, empty Purgatory quicker, and those Souls of whom we have assisted, are able in God's Holy Will, to assist our Souls when crossing over to Jesus, God The Most High and The Holy Spirit in judgement after a 7 day reprieve.

Love and kindest wishes your Sister in Jesus Christ our Saviour

 

[MoreCoffee]

Where in scripture is purgatory referenced?

Every passage that promises heaven is also a promise of human sinless perfection in the presence of God. And every passage that promises human perfection in God's presence is a promise of final and complete purgation of all all human sins and imperfections. And purgation of all human imperfections is purgatory.

 

[ebia]

Purgatory is no more incompatible with Christ's work of redemption than is saint Paul's assertion that his sufferings made up what was laking in the sufferings of the Christ is incompatible with the completeness of Christ's work of redemption.

If saint Paul could suffer for the benefit of the church then the faithful can be purged of their falts of character and habit prior to entering God's presence in heaven. In fact it seems that every variety of Christianity teaches that there is a transition from incomplete sanctification at the time of death to complete and perfect sanctification at the time one appears in heaven before God, and that being so every variety of Christianity teaches purgation and hence purgatory.

We seem to be going in circles. Cleansing of faults isn't (or at least shouldn't) be much of a problem. But punishment is incompatible with a view that sees ALL the punishment having been already been taken on the cross.

Spe Salvi has a view of purgatory that doesn't have a notion of punishment. That's fine. (Whether that's consistent with other aspects of things Benedict appeared to support is another matter.). Yet for some reason most catholics even in this thread start with "purifying" but quickly slide into punishment language.

 

[MoreCoffee]

We seem to be going in circles. Cleansing of faults isn't (or at least shouldn't) be much of a problem. But punishment is incompatible with a view that sees ALL the punishment having been already been taken on the cross.

Spe Salvi has a view of purgatory that doesn't have a notion of punishment. That's fine. (Whether that's consistent with other aspects of things Benedict appeared to support is another matter.). Yet for some reason most catholics even in this thread start with "purifying" but quickly slide into punishment language.

Any view that sees ALL punishments as already taken on the cross is unbiblical. Ananias and Sapphira are an example of punishment administered on Earth (Acts 5:1-6). Of course those two were not the only Christians to suffer punishment for their sins while still on Earth; saint Paul mentions those who are delivered to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus (1 Corinthians 5:5). There are several additional examples that can be given and personal experience teaches all of us that sins remain in a Christian’s life and attract their own kind of punishments.