Evangelicals who affirm Purgatory

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

There's and interesting article on Patheos (Patheos | Hosting the Conversation on Faith) about Evangelical who affirm Purgatory. Jerry Walls is one of those evangelicals and has written about about the subject: Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory..Here is a nutshell synopsis:

1. Heaven is a place of total perfection and that means humans must be perfected to enter into heaven.
2. The vast majority of people are far from perfection at death. Even the most devout of Christians is far from perfect.
3. Those who enter must be (1) perfect, (2) instantly perfected by God at the point of death, or (3) be sanctified after death.
#1 is rare; #2 is most of the Protestants and #3 is not incompatible with Catholic, Orthodox and a small number of Protestants.
Thus, every theology must have some kind of purgatory theory: either instantaneous or through a process.

(Note: Pope Benedict XVI noted that Purgatory may not take time per se).

 

[Rhamiel]

logic dictates that their is a Purgatory

there are other streams of Evangelical thought that have a form of Purgatory, some kinds of Dispensationalism (not really a theology I endorse, just pointing it out)

 

[Galilee63]

Jesus has written about Heaven, Purgatory and Hell within His Holy messages through Saint Faustina and shown Saint Faustina and many other Saints Heaven Purgatory and Hell during their lives here. All Saints, Children and Adults have described similar accounts.


"...I saw two roads. One was broad, covered with sand and flowers, full of joy, music and all sorts of pleasures. People walked along it, dancing and enjoying themselves. They reached the end without realizing it. And at the end of the road there was a horrible precipice; that is, the abyss of hell. The souls fell blindly into it; as they walked, so they fell. And their number was so great that it was impossible to count them. And I saw the other road, or rather, a path, for it was narrow and strewn with thorns and rocks; and the people who walked along it had tears in their eyes, and all kinds of suffering befell them. Some fell down upon the rocks, but stood up immediately and went on. At the end of the road there was a magnificent garden filled with all sorts of happiness and all these souls entered there. At the very first instant they forgot all their sufferings" (Diary 153).


"...How fleeting all earthly things are, and everything that appears great disappears like smoke, and does not give the soul freedom, but weariness. Happy the soul that understands these things and with only one foot touches the earth" (Diary 1141).


"...If a soul loves God sincerely and is intimately united with Him, then, even though such a soul may be living in the midst of difficult external circumstances, nothing can disturb its interior life; and in the midst of corruption, it can remain pure and unsullied; because the great love of God gives it strength for battle, and God also protects in a special way" (Diary 1094).

"As the soul continues to immerse itself more deeply into the abyss of its nothingness and need, God uses His omnipotence to exalt it. If there is a truly happy soul upon earth, it can only be a truly humble soul. At first, one’s self-love suffers greatly on this account, but after a soul has struggled courageously, God grants it much light by which it sees how wretched and full of deception everything is" (Diary 593).

Heaven (extract):
"The floodgates of heaven are open to a humble soul, and a sea of graces flows down upon it (...). God refuses nothing to such a soul; it is all-powerful and influences the destiny of the whole world. God raises such a soul up to very throne, and the more it humbles itself, the more God stoops down to it, pursuing it with His graces and accompanying it at every moment with His omnipotence" (Diary 1306).


"...I was in heaven and I saw its inconceivable beauties and the happiness that awaits us after death. I saw how all creatures give ceaseless praise and glory to God. I saw how great is happiness in God, which spreads to all creatures, making them happy; and than all the glory and praise which springs from this happiness returns to its source; and they enter into the depths of God, contemplating the inner life of God (...). This source of happiness is unchanging in its essence, but it is always new, gushing forth happiness for all creatures" (Diary 777).

"God, who is Light itself, lives in a pure and humble heart, and all sufferings and adversities serve but to reveal the soul’s holiness" (Diary 573).

Hell (extract):

"I was led by an Angel to the chasms of hell (...). I would have died at the very sight of these tortures if the omnipotence of God had not supported me. Let the sinner know that he will be tortured throughout all eternity, in those senses which he made use of to sin. I am writing this at the command of God, so that no soul may find an excuse by saying there is no hell, or that nobody has ever been there, and so no one can say what it is like (...). I noticed that there are most souls that did not believe hell exists. I could hardly recover from the fright. How terribly souls suffer there!" (Diary 741).

Purgatory (extract):
"In a moment I was in a misty place full of fire in which there was a great crowd of suffering souls. They were praying fervently, but to no avail for themselves; only we can come to their aid (...) their greatest torment was longing for God. I saw Our Lady visiting the souls in Purgatory. The souls call her "The Star of the Sea". She brings them refreshment" (Diary 20).

Humility (extract):


"...Humility is nothing but the truth. There is no cringing in the true humility. Although I consider myself the least (...). I enjoy the honor of being the beloved of Christ" (Diary 1502).

"As the soul continues to immerse itself more deeply into the abyss of its nothingness and need, God uses His omnipotence to exalt it. If there is a truly happy soul upon earth, it can only be a truly humble soul. At first, one’s self-love suffers greatly on this account, but after a soul has struggled courageously, God grants it much light by which it sees how wretched and full of deception everything is" (Diary 593).


"The floodgates of heaven are open to a humble soul, and a sea of graces flows down upon it (...). God refuses nothing to such a soul; it is all-powerful and influences the destiny of the whole world. God raises such a soul up to very throne, and the more it humbles itself, the more God stoops down to it, pursuing it with His graces and accompanying it at every moment with His omnipotence" (Diary 1306).


"God, who is Light itself, lives in a pure and humble heart, and all sufferings and adversities serve but to reveal the soul’s holiness" (Diary 573).


"...Humility is nothing but the truth. There is no cringing in the true humility. Although I consider myself the least (...). I enjoy the honor of being the beloved of Christ" (Diary 1502).

"Outwardly, your sacrifice must look like this: silent, hidden, permeated with love, imbued with prayer. I demand, My daughter, that your sacrifice be pure and full of humility, that I may find pleasure in it (...). You shall accept all sufferings with love.
Do not be afflicted if your heart often experiences repugnance and dislike for sacrifice. All its power rests in the will, and so these contrary feelings, far from lowering the value of the sacrifice in My eyes, will enhance it" (Diary 1767).


"...every conversion of a sinful soul demands sacrifice" (Diary 961).


"...I need sacrifice lovingly accomplished, because that alone has meaning for Me. Enormous indeed are the debts of the world which are due to Me; pure souls can pay them by their sacrifice, exercising mercy in spirit" (Diary 1316).


"...but write this for the many souls who are often worried because they do not have the material means with which to carry out an act of mercy. Yet spiritual mercy, which requires neither permissions nor storehouses, is much more meritorious and is within the grasp of every soul. If a soul does not exercise mercy somehow or other, it will not obtain My mercy on the day of judgment. Oh, if only souls knew how to gather eternal treasure for themselves, they would not be judged, for they would forestall My judgment with their mercy" (Diary 1317).

"Chosen souls are, in My hand, lights which I cast into the darkness of the world and with which I illumine it. As stars illumine the night, so chosen souls illumine the earth. And the more perfect a soul is, the stronger and the more far-reaching is the light shed by it. It can be hidden and unknown, even to those closest to it, and yet its holiness is reflected in souls even to the most distant extremities of the world" (Diary 1601).


"...There are souls living in the world who love Me dearly. I dwell in their hearts with delight. But they are few. In convents too, there are souls that fill My Heart with joy. They bear My features (...). Their number is very small. They are a defense for the world before the justice of the Heavenly Father and a means of obtaining mercy for the world. The love and sacrifice of these souls sustain the world in existence" (Diary 367).


"The Lord gave me much light to know His attributes. The first attribute that the Lord gave me to know is His holiness. His holiness is so great that all the Powers and Virtues tremble before Him(...). The holiness of God is poured out upon the Church of God and upon every living soul in it, but not in the same degree. There are souls who are completely penetrated by God, and there are those who are barely alive. The second kind of knowledge that the Lord granted me concerns His justice. His justice is so great and penetrating that it reaches deep into the heart of things, and all things stand before Him in naked truth (...). The third attribute is love and mercy. And I understood that the greatest attribute is love and mercy. It unites the creature with the Creator. This immense love and abyss of mercy are made known in the Incarnation of the Word and in the Redemption [of humanity], and it is here that I saw this as the greatest of all God’s attributes" (Diary 180).


"All that is great and beautiful is in God (...). O you sages of the world and you great minds, recognize that true greatness is in loving God!" (Diary 990).

"God approaches a soul in a special way known only to himself and to the soul (...). Love presides in this union, and everything is achieved by love alone. Jesus gives himself to the soul in a gentle and sweet manner, and in His depths there is peace. He grants the soul many graces and makes it capable of sharing His eternal thoughts. And frequently, He reveals to it His divine plans" (Diary 622).


"...If the Lord demands something of a soul, He gives it the means to carry it out, and through grace He makes it capable of doing this. So, even if the soul be utterly miserable, at the Lord’s command it can undertake things beyond its expectation, because this is the sign by which it can be known that the Lord is with that soul; if God’s power and strength, which make the soul courageous and valiant, is manifested within it" (Diary 1090).

+++

Confession to our Lord Jesus Christ is one of the ways in which my soul is humbled with Father present, opening up my heart in genuine remorse of sins to Jesus as is repenting along the way to Jesus prior to Prayer from my heart, not just from my mind and wonderful lessons in Humility getting more used to being humble. I pray for Jesus and The Blessed Virgin Mary's humility along the way, offering up humiliating experiences for the benefit of The Holy Souls in Purgatory and own soul; sometimes failing in this most sadly.

By focussing on Jesus daily, His Life, His torments, pain, sorrows, humiliating experiences, Jesus is able to open our hearts more powerfully which in turn among many other fantastic things, makes us more humble, more loving, compassionate and merciful to others, because we are receiving Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit Himself with all of His most Loving Holy attributes.

Fasting if healthy thrice weekly assists wonderfully.

Love and kindest wishes your Sister in Jesus Christ our Saviour

 

[GratiaCorpusChristi]

There's and interesting article on Patheos (Patheos | Hosting the Conversation on Faith) about Evangelical who affirm Purgatory. Jerry Walls is one of those evangelicals and has written about about the subject: Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory..Here is a nutshell synopsis:

1. Heaven is a place of total perfection and that means humans must be perfected to enter into heaven.
2. The vast majority of people are far from perfection at death. Even the most devout of Christians is far from perfect.
3. Those who enter must be (1) perfect, (2) instantly perfected by God at the point of death, or (3) be sanctified after death.
#1 is rare; #2 is most of the Protestants and #3 is not incompatible with Catholic, Orthodox and a small number of Protestants.
Thus, every theology must have some kind of purgatory theory: either instantaneous or through a process.

(Note: Pope Benedict XVI noted that Purgatory may not take time per se).

 

[RileyG]

So, are you implying, as a Lutheran you believe the faithful departed can be purified and prayed for after death?

 

[MoreCoffee]

There's and interesting article on Patheos (Patheos | Hosting the Conversation on Faith) about Evangelical who affirm Purgatory. Jerry Walls is one of those evangelicals and has written about about the subject: Heaven, Hell, and Purgatory..Here is a nutshell synopsis:

1. Heaven is a place of total perfection and that means humans must be perfected to enter into heaven.
2. The vast majority of people are far from perfection at death. Even the most devout of Christians is far from perfect.
3. Those who enter must be (1) perfect, (2) instantly perfected by God at the point of death, or (3) be sanctified after death.
#1 is rare; #2 is most of the Protestants and #3 is not incompatible with Catholic, Orthodox and a small number of Protestants.
Thus, every theology must have some kind of purgatory theory: either instantaneous or through a process.

(Note: Pope Benedict XVI noted that Purgatory may not take time per se).

While chatting in General Theology I've often noted that evangelicals do in fact believe in purgatory insofar as they believe that at death nearly all Christians have not yet achieved perfect sinlessness and that in heaven everybody is perfectly sinless therefore implying that there is a transition from the state at death to a state of perfection in heaven. The transition is, of necessity, a purgation of whatever is left of sin in each individual's nature. The thing is that Evangelicals - generally speaking - do not give much thought to how this purgation is achieved. To them it is passed over without significant discussion. Catholics, on the other hand, have devoted considerable thought and centuries of discussion to the matter and have thus arrived at the doctrine of purgatory. I presume that having a history of about two thousand years as a Christian church left room for proper consideration and debate on this matter to occur. Many Evangelical denominations are not very old and hence may not yet have had sufficient time to develop their theology fully so if we wait a few hundred years there may be considerable convergence of evangelical theology towards Catholic theology.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

What I've noticed when I would debate Protestant evangelicals on this is that most of them have a problem with the word "Purgatory" and that this word is associated with the Catholic Church. They don't realize that their belief that they are "washed with the blood of Jesus" is actually compatible with the doctrine of Purgatory. I can think of Purgatory as "being washed with the blood of Jesus" and still be a Catholic. So, in other words, it is language and anti-Catholic prejudice that has been the barrier for so long and not the actual doctrine of Purgatory.

 

[RileyG]

What I've noticed when I would debate Protestant evangelicals on this is that most of them have a problem with the word "Purgatory" and that this word is associated with the Catholic Church. They don't realize that their belief that they are "washed with the blood of Jesus" is actually compatible with the doctrine of Purgatory. I can think of Purgatory as "being washed with the blood of Jesus" and still be a Catholic. So, in other words, it is language and anti-Catholic prejudice that has been the barrier for so long and not the actual doctrine of Purgatory.

I see Purgatory not as punishment, but rather as a "time" to grow in love, to mature, and to be healed. Purgatory exists because of God's infinite mercy.

It is extremely painful because they are so, so close to full communion with God- but not there- quite yet.

I think I should add God exists outside of time- and we SHOULD pray fervently for all the faithful departed, especially those who died recently. Only God knows their hearts.

My two cents.

 

[classicalhero]

As a Baptist, the way I see it is that if there is Purgatory, then Jesus' sacrifice isn't enough because he paved the way to heaven and paid all our sins, but if some of our sins are fully paid then Jesus' sacrifice isn't enough to get you directly to heaven.

 

[RileyG]

As a Baptist, the way I see it is that if there is Purgatory, then Jesus' sacrifice isn't enough because he paved the way to heaven and paid all our sins, but if some of our sins are fully paid then Jesus' sacrifice isn't enough to get you directly to heaven.

Um..No. No one unrepentant can enter purgatory, let alone heaven.

Purgatory is for those who already repented of their sins.

Purgatory is where we are HEALED from the effects of our sins.

For example; If I drive drunk and kill someone, and truly be sorry and go to confession- I am forgiven. period. HOWEVER, I will need to go to jail because I ultimately affected someone's life. All sin is communal.

Makes sense?

 

[ebia]

What I've noticed when I would debate Protestant evangelicals on this is that most of them have a problem with the word "Purgatory" and that this word is associated with the Catholic Church. They don't realize that their belief that they are "washed with the blood of Jesus" is actually compatible with the doctrine of Purgatory. I can think of Purgatory as "being washed with the blood of Jesus" and still be a Catholic. So, in other words, it is language and anti-Catholic prejudice that has been the barrier for so long and not the actual doctrine of Purgatory.

Well, yes and no.

The idea of purgatory that Benedict puts forward in Spe Salvi isn't a problem for most, or wouldn't be if it were presented well separated from the word purgatory and other "romish" associations.

But other presentations of the idea and associated ideas very much would be.

 

[ebia]

As a Baptist, the way I see it is that if there is Purgatory, then Jesus' sacrifice isn't enough because he paved the way to heaven and paid all our sins, but if some of our sins are fully paid then Jesus' sacrifice isn't enough to get you directly to heaven.

If your only model for understanding salvation is payment for a crime then purgatory doesn't really fit in.

But the idea of salvation needs to be bigger than that. Even the word is bigger than that, carry connotations of being healed as much as being rescued in the original hebrew. So there is also that healing, that putting right to be done. And although we have started (or should have started) along that path none of us or most of us are still not fully put right by the time of death.
Purgatory as a notion of paying for sins committed is problematic.
But purgatory as the final part of that putting to rights needn't be.

 

[classicalhero]

Um..No. No one unrepentant can enter purgatory, let alone heaven.

Purgatory is for those who already repented of their sins.

Purgatory is where we are HEALED from the effects of our sins.

For example; If I drive drunk and kill someone, and truly be sorry and go to confession- I am forgiven. period. HOWEVER, I will need to go to jail because I ultimately affected someone's life. All sin is communal.

Makes sense?

No either our sins are fully paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ, or they aren't. What you are talking about sins we have committed here on earth. God took upon himself through Jesus the sins of the entire world and his sacrifice paid for all of our sins. What we do on earth will be punished by those on earth. There is no one who is perfect when they die on this earth, but Jesus said to the thief who believed on him while on the cross that when he dies he will be with Christ in paradise, which Paul says is in heaven.

 

[ebia]

Um..No. No one unrepentant can enter purgatory, let alone heaven.

Purgatory is for those who already repented of their sins.

Purgatory is where we are HEALED from the effects of our sins.

For example; If I drive drunk and kill someone, and truly be sorry and go to confession- I am forgiven. period. HOWEVER, I will need to go to jail because I ultimately affected someone's life. All sin is communal.

Makes sense?

I'm not sure whether you realise it or not, but you jumped from healing, which ought to be okay to most, to penalty in jail, which is quite different and won't be.

 

[MoreCoffee]

No either our sins are fully paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ, or they aren't. What you are talking about sins we have committed here on earth. God took upon himself through Jesus the sins of the entire world and his sacrifice paid for all of our sins. What we do on earth will be punished by those on earth. There is no one who is perfect when they die on this earth, but Jesus said to the thief who believed on him while on the cross that when he dies he will be with Christ in paradise, which Paul says is in heaven.

Purgatory is not about the forgiveness of sins; all of a Christians sins are forgiven. Purgatory is about purifying. It is about being set free from the tendency to sin and the harmful habits sins induces in the sinner.

 

[Rhamiel]

No either our sins are fully paid for by the blood of Jesus Christ, or they aren't. What you are talking about sins we have committed here on earth. God took upon himself through Jesus the sins of the entire world and his sacrifice paid for all of our sins. What we do on earth will be punished by those on earth. There is no one who is perfect when they die on this earth, but Jesus said to the thief who believed on him while on the cross that when he dies he will be with Christ in paradise, which Paul says is in heaven.

here is how I like to explain it

lets say I am jealous of my neighbor Bob
I know that the Bible says we should not be jealous of one another but love each other
I have taken this to Jesus and asked for Him to forgive me
I have taken steps in my life so I will not be so jealous of Bob
but guess what?
sometimes I still feel jealous of him
me and Bob get hit by a plane that crashes into my back yard BBQ
me and Bob go to heaven
in heaven will I still have this subtle jealousy of Bob?

no of course not
but up until the moment that the that the jet engine crushed the back of my skull I felt jealousy for Bob

so that means, some time between death and Heaven, God completed the Sanctification that He started within me, this was not done by my own merit but through the merit of Christ on the Cross

so to us, Purgatory is the completion of Sanctification after death by the merits of the blood of Christ

 

[Rhamiel]

I'm not sure whether you realise it or not, but you jumped from healing, which ought to be okay to most, to penalty in jail, which is quite different and won't be.

most people do not like the imagery of jail?
I guess most people do not like Biblical imagery

Matthew 5:25-26
25“Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

 

[ebia]

most people do not like the imagery of jail?
I guess most people do not like Biblical imagery

Matthew 5:25-26
25“Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still together on the way, or your adversary may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. 26Truly I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

The point isn't whether one likes the imagery or not, not whether you can pull out a proof text or two. It's not whether you are right or not.

The point is that healing doesn't run counter to any "protestant" non-negotiable doctrines.
Doing time for a sin for which the time has already been paid does.

You can't sit there and say "its all about healing and purification, ..." and then chuck in the idea of punishment without completely throwing a spanner in the works. Its that idea of punishment that was the problem all along.

 

[Rhamiel]

The point isn't whether one likes the imagery or not, not whether you can pull out a proof text or two. It's not whether you are right or not.

The point is that healing doesn't run counter to any "protestant" non-negotiable doctrines.
Doing time for a sin for which the time has already been paid does.

You can't sit there and say "its all about healing and purification, ..." and then chuck in the idea of punishment without completely throwing a spanner in the works. Its that idea of punishment that was the problem all along.

we are just being faithful to the plain word of scripture
I am sorry that some Protestants are not comfortable with the prison analogy, but that is clearly biblical

 

[ebia]

we are just being faithful to the plain word of scripture
I am sorry that some Protestants are not comfortable with the prison analogy, but that is clearly biblical

The thread isn't about whether you are right or wrong about purgatory, but whether it is problematic for protestants. If you stick to what Benedict says in Spe Salvi, its not. But start putting in aspects of punishment and it most definitely is.