Euthanasia

[Merlin]

I'm all for life, too. However, I think there's a big difference between existing and truly living.

Unfortunately, healing is not always possible.

Just because modern medicine is capable of prolonging my basic bodily functions does not necessarily mean that it should.

Who does it benefit for me to spend my last days, weeks, months, or years bedridden, incapacitated, and in extreme pain, with no hope of recovery, stripped of all that which made my life meaningful- stripped of all life with the exception of basic bodily function?

No, healing is not always possible, but it's possible 100s of times more often than the current medical status quo.

 

[Merlin]

Shoot, I'm for healing too.. and when healing doesn't happen in this life I'm all for the healing balm of the end of worldly pain and suffering.

Why have pain?
You like it?

 

[fillerbunny]

No, healing is not always possible, but it's possible 100s of times more often than the current medical status quo.

Nobody lives forever. As such, each of us will one day reach a point where all our options have been exhausted and healing is no longer a possibility.

If we are lucky, when that time comes, our passing will be quick and relatively painless.

Unfortunately, some of us are not going to be so lucky. Some of us will die long, drawn-out, agonizing, dehumanizing deaths. It is for this reason that I support the availability of euthanasia for those who seek it.

 

[Merlin]

Unfortunately, some of us are not going to be so lucky. Some of us will die long, drawn-out, agonizing, dehumanizing deaths.

Why opt for that?
It's not a requirement.

 

[Mling]

Why have pain?

Because we have nerves specifically created to warn us when we are in danger of injuring ourselves. I've heard of two people who could not feel pain. The first died of massive infections when she was 23, the second is still a young child. I saw a tape of her; she has no self preservation instinct. She'll run into the corners of tables, scratch and bite herself. She had to have her eyes sewn shut when she was a toddler to keep her from poking them out.

You like it?

As a matter of fact, in some contexts, I do, but that's a different conversation. And there is only so much that "redifining" pain can accomplish. I can get aches and muscle soreness to stop being unpleasant by mentally redefining the experience--telling myself that I am feeling a sensation, like any other, and, since I am in no danger, there is no reason to think of this sensation as "bad." It works for minor pain, but I doubt it would help with something more extreme.

 

[Mling]

I'm all for life, too. However, I think there's a big difference between existing and truly living.

Unfortunately, healing is not always possible.

Just because modern medicine is capable of prolonging my basic bodily functions does not necessarily mean that it should.

Who does it benefit for me to spend my last days, weeks, months, or years bedridden, incapacitated, and in extreme pain, with no hope of recovery, stripped of all that which made my life meaningful- stripped of all life with the exception of basic bodily function?

When a good friend of mine died, and I heard that her parents had removed her life support when it became clear she would not "wake up" (massive brain damage from a heart attack), I was tempted to track them down and thank them. "Existing," without really living, is a mockery of life.

 

[fillerbunny]

Why opt for that?
It's not a requirement.

How exactly does one simply 'opt out' of an agonizing, debilitating terminal condition?

(Sans choosing to end their suffering, that is.)

 

[bammertheblue]

Why opt for that?
It's not a requirement.

Maybe I'm stupid, but I don't understand what you're saying here.

People do not get to choose how they die. Some people die in their sleep after a long, happy life. Some people die holding the hand of their spouse or child. Some people die alone. Some people die in agony. Of course, I think we would all pick the first two options over the second two, but we don't get to pick. This is why I think euthenasia should be an option. If I knew I was to die in agony, I'd rather die in my own way, on my own time, than have to go through the pain and the uncertainty.

 

[Mling]

Maybe I'm stupid, but I don't understand what you're saying here.

People do not get to choose how they die. Some people die in their sleep after a long, happy life. Some people die holding the hand of their spouse or child. Some people die alone. Some people die in agony. Of course, I think we would all pick the first two options over the second two, but we don't get to pick. This is why I think euthenasia should be an option. If I knew I was to die in agony, I'd rather die in my own way, on my own time, than have to go through the pain and the uncertainty.

As an interesting side note, many people in my family have died under controlled, somewhat pre-selected circumstances.

With both my grandmothers it was somebody saying to them, while they were completely comatose, "I think we can both see that it's time for you to go. So let's do this." With one, then everybody left the room (she was more the quite, proud type) and with the other, my mom sat and read her Psalms. With both, it took about 10 minutes. My great-grandmother saw her late husband who told her that he would be back that night to "get her." Whether it was actually her husband's spirit, or a hallucination of some type--her body telling her that she was going to go soon--I would not hazard a guess. Either way, she spent that evening finishing some crocheted Christmas angels she had promised an orderly, and died that night.

 

[bammertheblue]

As an interesting side note, many people in my family have died under controlled, somewhat pre-selected circumstances.

With both my grandmothers it was somebody saying to them, while they were completely comatose, "I think we can both see that it's time for you to go. So let's do this." With one, then everybody left the room (she was more the quite, proud type) and with the other, my mom sat and read her Psalms. With both, it took about 10 minutes. My great-grandmother saw her late husband who told her that he would be back that night to "get her." Whether it was actually her husband's spirit, or a hallucination of some type--her body telling her that she was going to go soon--I would not hazard a guess. Either way, she spent that evening finishing some crocheted Christmas angels she had promised an orderly, and died that night.

My great-uncle, it seemed, refused to die until his wife of over 50 years gave him "permission" to do so. He had cancer, was in a lot of pain, but he wouldn't leave until Leona told him "It's okay, you can go". And then he died within the half hour.

This was the same uncle who, rest in peace, didn't understand the word "recesuitate" (dropped out of school to work in the 4th grade), but knew he didn't want heroic measures to keep him alive. He's really the reason I stand in favour of euthenasia. He was in terrible pain and wanted to die, but also wanted to live for his family.
Those were the worst few weeks of my life, and I don't want anyone else to have to go through that.

 

[TheMissus]

I'm sorry to hear about that, Bammer. What a tough way for him to die, as well. One of my greatest fears is being forced to die in an undignified way, at the mercy of others. Standing idly by and watching someone else die under those circumstances is torture for everyone involved. I've done it too, and I never want to do it again.

 

[wanderingone]

Why have pain?
You like it?

Actually I'm in a lot of pain lately with rheumatoid arthritis. I've learned some pain management techniques, which despite the allegations of the "pain is all psychological" crowd doesn't eliminate the pain but allows you a level of distraction. When it gets so bad that I can't manage that, and it's very hard to maintain the level of concentration needed to avoid pain when you're trying to sleep, I opt for pain killers.

I don't like pain which is why I made the obvious statement that sometimes death is a healing from pain.

 

[wanderingone]

My great-uncle, it seemed, refused to die until his wife of over 50 years gave him "permission" to do so. He had cancer, was in a lot of pain, but he wouldn't leave until Leona told him "It's okay, you can go". And then he died within the half hour.

This was the same uncle who, rest in peace, didn't understand the word "recesuitate" (dropped out of school to work in the 4th grade), but knew he didn't want heroic measures to keep him alive. He's really the reason I stand in favour of euthenasia. He was in terrible pain and wanted to die, but also wanted to live for his family.
Those were the worst few weeks of my life, and I don't want anyone else to have to go through that.

That seems to be something many people have had experiences with, that people seem to need permission to stop struggling against death. My grandmother wasn't diagnosed with ovarian cancer until she was extremely sick. Back then children were never allowed in most hospital rooms. So we couldn't see her, my grandmother ALWAYS made sure we kids understood things and were okay before she went to hospitals, went away on a trip etc.. nobody knew how my grandmother was still alive but she was in terrible pain and the doctors wouldn't give her more pain meds (for fear of overdosing her-goodness knows you have to keep people alive when they're dying) . My mom and my aunt stood my sisters and my cousin and I outside the window of her room and got an orderly to move her bed to the window so we could reach in and touch her, and she could try to tell us she loved us, she really didn't even have the capacity to turn her head toward us, they told her it was okay, that we all knew how hard she had worked all her life, and we knew she was in a lot of pain and we wanted her to be free. By the time we walked back into the hospital waiting room my aunt came out to tell us my grandmother had passed right after she got to tell us she loved us.

I believe she needed to know we were okay that we "understood" so she could go.

I am not certain about euthanasia, where the line would be drawn, as I said earlier I am wary of who makes what decisions. When my dad got sick the doctors suggested he would pass quickly without treatment, and his prognosis was terrible with treatment. He wanted every available treatment. He was clear about it, and desperately tried to live for more 2 years after his initial hospitalization. IMO it was a miserabl existence, but we knew his wishes. The doctors pushed us to sign a DNR when he got so sick he couldn't speak for himself anymore. But we refused, because we knew his wishes. When he died it was because everything failed including attempts to rescuscitate. I'm in favor of people being allowed that self determination if they want to die or if they don't want to.

 

[belladonic-haze]

I'm for life
That puts me against Euthanasia.

I'm for healing

I am for life. Heck I wanna grow old wrinkly and grey....

But what's more important: quality or quantity of life?

We can heal many people, but we cannot heal everybody.....some people have incurable illnesses i.e. AIDS, some sort of cancers, ALS and other muscular defects and so on...the list is still too long, but it's just a fact of life today.

 

[belladonic-haze]

My great-uncle, it seemed, refused to die until his wife of over 50 years gave him "permission" to do so. He had cancer, was in a lot of pain, but he wouldn't leave until Leona told him "It's okay, you can go". And then he died within the half hour.

This was the same uncle who, rest in peace, didn't understand the word "recesuitate" (dropped out of school to work in the 4th grade), but knew he didn't want heroic measures to keep him alive. He's really the reason I stand in favour of euthenasia. He was in terrible pain and wanted to die, but also wanted to live for his family.
Those were the worst few weeks of my life, and I don't want anyone else to have to go through that.

I am sorry to hear that Bammer.....

 

[bammertheblue]

I am not certain about euthanasia, where the line would be drawn, as I said earlier I am wary of who makes what decisions. When my dad got sick the doctors suggested he would pass quickly without treatment, and his prognosis was terrible with treatment. He wanted every available treatment. He was clear about it, and desperately tried to live for more 2 years after his initial hospitalization. IMO it was a miserabl existence, but we knew his wishes. The doctors pushed us to sign a DNR when he got so sick he couldn't speak for himself anymore. But we refused, because we knew his wishes. When he died it was because everything failed including attempts to rescuscitate. I'm in favor of people being allowed that self determination if they want to die or if they don't want to.

Oh, definitely. The only thing that makes me a bit wary about euthenasia is when people begin implying "Oh, this is what mom/dad/grandpa would have wanted" without actually being told, by mom/dad/grandpa, what they really wanted.
If the patient is the one who suggests euthenasia, that's as it should be. It shouldn't be the doctor or the family trying to push their wishes on the patient, as well-meaning as they might be. (I feel like this goes without saying, but I had to say it anyway, apparently).

 

[LightHorseman]

But what's more important: quality or quantity of life?

I nominate this for the cutting-through-the-bull-to-the-crux-of-the-issue award!

 

[Harlan Norris]

I'm against it.Life is short and endureable.Even the pain of long illness teaches something.We that are not ill can also learn from helping those in need to endure.I often think that ending someones life to put them out of their misery,is actually to put them out of our misery.

 

[LightHorseman]

Life is short and endureable.Even the pain of long illness teaches something.We that are not ill can also learn from helping those in need to endure.I often think that ending someones life to put them out of their misery,is actually to put them out of our misery.

I can't think how to phrase this without it sounding mean... but I'll give it my best (please note, this is for EXAMPLARY purposes, not with any malice intended)

I hope you or a close loved one gets a really nasty cancer, that is extremely painful, and robs them or you of all quality and dignity in life, and that you or your loved one spend many months laying helpless in wretched agony, bathed in your own blood, vomit and efluent, in a hospital bed away from home and family, deprived of any sort of real human interaction, just stinking, in pain, and helpless, with absolutely no chance of recovery. Because by denying others euthanasia as an option, this is exactly what you want OTHER people to go through.

OK, so I don't REALLY hope that you or anyone you know gets sick, but I'm trying to be confronting to knock you out of your rose tinted glurge frame of mind that other people's suffering should be prolonged because you wont consider the alternative.

 

[belladonic-haze]

I'm against it.Life is short and endureable.Even the pain of long illness teaches something.We that are not ill can also learn from helping those in need to endure.I often think that ending someones life to put them out of their misery,is actually to put them out of our misery.

Pain?

You know what I miss most? Running!

You know; like a child running through a field, with arms and legs going in every direction, being able to run and enjoy the sun on your face. Just something as simple as running is so out of reach for me. Of course I can run.....a few feet probably and then I feel even more exhausted than someone who had run 1 miles.

Just simple running is one of the first things that is taken away from me.

I hope that someday (and I have 10 to 20 years before that happens if I am lucky) I will get a new heart. And when I get a new heart the first thing I want to do is run through a meadow on a clear and warm spring day....oh what the heck, it can rain even.

What about warm hands and feet? I am always cold. It is quite lovely today here. The sun is shining and people are walking in their short sleeved shirts and tank tops. I have been laying on my small tiny day bed, with a blanket over me because I just could not get warm today......

It's not always the pain.......it is losing all the things in life piece by piece, little by little that is so normal for those who are healthy.

I don't mind these things, but every few months, or every year it will slowly get more difficult to just do things that people consider normal.

And I am one of the lucky people....I have a illness that can be 'cured'. I can get a heart transplant. They can 'cure' me and if all goes well I can enjoy my life for many years more and indeed become an old wrinkly lady........but the organs are not easy to get, the body can refuse the new heart, my tissue type could be rare......and so on and so on.........

Yes, running.....I miss that......