Euthanasia

[LightHorseman]

OhSee, we'll talk again about the "ultimate offence against oneself" if you should ever happen to suffer from abdominal cancer and start to puke feces, or when your future choices are reduced to spending a few hours or even days in screaming agony, waiting for death to take you at last.

Thank you Jane. I love you, and want to have your children.

 

[TheMissus]

LightHorseman and Jane, sittin' in a tree, K-I........ nevermind.

OhSee, have you ever watched someone struggle with an extended illness that eventually killed them? Ever have to watch someone as their vital functions shut down one by one over the course of several months? Ever had to watch someone endure a pain beyond words because their chemo wasn't strong enough to stop the spread of their cancer? Ever watch someone who had lived their life with dignity be reduced to diapers and morphine?

The idea that pain is just a state of mind is nothing more than a theory. Pain is a harsh reality for many people on their way out. Forcing them to suffer long after they've expressed a desire to die is inhumane.

I bet you're an advocate of "natural" childbirth too, right?

 

[LightHorseman]

The Missus, if I thought your better half wouldn't mind, I'd proposition you too

 

[wanderingone]

Ok, what other reason is there other then pain?

Being a prisoner in an immobile body, or a body that functions with no connection to what you want it to do are examples of why some people choose to end their lives. While some people cherish life and find no problem in the humble situation of being totally dependent on someone else others find it unbearable to have no independence including the ability to express a thought.

And its not just about the right to end your life, it's about the reasoning behind it. There is no "logical" reason for ending ones life. It's a matter of existance or non-existance. The answer seems clear to me...

Why would it have to meet your standards of logic? Don't people have an inherent "right" to self determination?

 

[wanderingone]

The point is missed, humans have a free will up until they die. Pain however horrible is none the less a state of mind, and can be changed.

Tell that to my friend who breast cancer for 10 years, using every available treatment even when she no longer wanted to because everyone around her insisted she HAD to go on for her family, and spent her last year in such pain she spent most of it in a haze of pain killers, the pain was eased but so was her ability to care for her children, or even enjoy having them around. The children everyone said she had to live for really have no memory of HER, only of a bedridden women in constant pain who couldn't even reach out to hold their hands.

If it had been a choice she made of her own free will then fine, but she was coerced by the weakness of a husband and parents who wanted to be able to say "at least she's still with us", and her husband, despite knowing her wishes refused to allow a self medicating pump for fear she would intentionally overdose. What life is that? To have someone in charge of you taking away your free will?

 

[OhSee]

I am not saying that killing yourself is "wrong" in a sense of moral matters. But when one decides to kill themself, I think they can only insane. Regardless of what you want to beleive nothing causes pain and suffering, people allow themselves to expieriance it. On that note when one succumbs to pain and suffering, and opts for death. They have made a gross computing error, and should see their local technician/therapist/doctor/shaman, whatever you want.

 

[TheMissus]

If you've never been in such a situation, your judgment of "insanity" means nothing. Neuroscientists have pinpointed the parts of the brain the transmit the feelings of pain, so it's clearly not just a matter of people allowing themselves to experience it. We're wired to feel pain, for good reason. Pain keeps us from sticking our hands on a hot burner. Pain keeps us from doing a lot of things that could kill us off as a species. Pain is not a state of mind.

If you're going to make such outlandish claims, you should probably provide us with some information written by neuroscientists to back it up.

 

[OhSee]

I've shared my thoughts, I'll be moving on to another thread now. If you disagree with me that's fine, I'm glad your thinking for yourself, but this conversation is becoming repative.

 

[LightHorseman]

In terms of self determination... isn't killing yourself rather the ultimate expression?

 

[sk8Joyful]

I bet you're an advocate of "natural" childbirth too, right?

As a matter of fact, Unknown to women in most (but western) cultures, earlier women would (after birthing in a field she was working in, say) return back to work a couple hours later - with both mother & neonate progressing well.

Most conditioned/Re-imprinted brainwashing re Birth-pain, was decidedly a Western-"education" - (along with forcing a human mother (for the convenience of MD's) into totally-unnatural position of birthing up-side-down with legs up in the air).

Yes, I am not only an Advocate of "painless Childbirth", many women using simply their God-blest natural internal Mind-resources have birthed, now do birth, and will continue, Birthing children *easily & quickly*

Ever have to watch someone, as their vital functions shut down one by one, over the course of several months?

In a general sense, that about described me, for a year - less than 10 yrs. ago. Hell it was.
Yet,
in the midst of that, Imagine the look of total disbelief on our Family Dr's face, when at age 48, for the very 1st. time in my life - I laced-up a pair of Figure skating boots, and stepped out on the ice, more dead than alive. But then, that was once of many times, they were witness to my rallying.
The 1st. time, they wanted me to 'kick the bucket' from "Acute lymphocytic Leukemia" in '82.
With the grace of GOD,
I *self-healed* then as well ~ What's this about LIFE *Passion*?? - whether JESUS', or us and it is this LIFE Passion, *in whatever healthy pleasures of FUN an Individual may choose*, that I help other (current sufferers) rekindle, as well. ~

Have you ever watched, someone struggle with an extended illness, that eventually killed them?

Why watch them do that,
when you can just as well Learn ~ *How* to help individiuals not merely survive/exist - but Live, & abundantly at that. As I'm proving with each of my Ice-practices now.
(Our sights may not be set on an Olympic-medal), but I'm blessed with a medalled Senior Figureskating Coach I take lessons from twice weekly, with additional practices aside; and even as I'm 54 yrs. young now, our goals/plans are for *sharing PAIR skating*.

Ever had to watch, someone endure a pain beyond words because their chemo wasn't strong enough to stop the spread of their cancer?

No 'cancering' "spreads".
Were that the case, Brain-cells would wind-up, mixed-up in the Liver-tissues, and floating-around in Skin cells, and migrating over to picnic in the Lungs. The only thing spreading, is more of that Nonsense!

Ever watch someone who had lived their life with dignity be reduced to diapers and morphine?

Yes, personally I've helped more than a handful such people, progress to the point, they confidently told their medical-providers to "I'm outa here! I've discovered a Life... *worth Living*"

Cheers!

Annie

 

[belladonic-haze]

OhSee, eutahnasia is NOT about killing yourself, because you can't handle life. You cannot die with dignity, but you can end a life because you cannot live it with dignity. If you suffer from an inoperable brain tumor and it takes away all your dignity like being able to dress and wash yourself and go to the bathroom yourself and talk and share your thoughts with other people not to mention the pain.....(state of mind????) and you can step out on your OWN terms, say goodbye to your loved ones, surrounded by your loved ones it is the most bravest thing someone can do.

Death is a part a life, but we don't have to sit around and wait and loose all the dignity because.........whatever someone's reason is.

Euthanasia is NOT suicide. It's just a way of moving on to the next level with the last piece of dignity you have.......Life is not about how old you get. Life is about what you do with it and what you pass on to others.....and ending a painful, already dying life a bit earlier on your own terms is NOT just because it is a state of mind.

I feel tired every day. Even if I slept well, I feel tired. I sometimes struggle on and cannot even walk the stairs in my own tiny house without being exhausted when I arrive upstairs. And yes, it hurts. My whole body sometimes hurts because of lack of oxygen. Believe me....my state of mind has NOTHING to do with that. I enjoy life and am planning to get really old and wrinkly and grey....but if my life gets intorable and they cannot do anything for me...why should I be forced to die from slow suffications? That is neither just my state of mind. Believe me, in my mind I can climb mountains......my body just refuses to listen .

I must ad that your boundries are not fixed in these matters. The will to survive is very strong and very much alive in all of us. And the experience of life and death is different in each one of us. We are never sure when we will die....but sometimes life gets too hard and if you can only lie on air filled beds and feel excrutiating pain with every breath you take and with every move you make, how tiny that movement is I doubt it is just a state of mind............... If then death and going home to God is the only logical step and you have the courage to take that step, I can only understand and feel nothing but respect for these people...

And if you choose to endure it all, I find these people equally strong and have the utmost respect for them as well.

Bell

 

[LightHorseman]

As a matter of fact, Unknown to women in most (but western) cultures, earlier women would (after birthing in a field she was working in, say) return back to work a couple hours later - with both mother & neonate progressing well.

MYTH ALERT! : Actually, without effective midwifery and suitible respite car, child birth is one of the most dangerous things a human can do. The reason why cultures without access to First world medicine usually have multiple wives and up to a dozen children is because it is EXPECTED that most of the children will die before adulthood, and some of the wives will die in childbirth.

Why watch them do that,
when you can just as well Learn ~ *How* to help individiuals not merely survive/exist - but Live, & abundantly at that. As I'm proving with each of my Ice-practices now.

If you genuinely are an example of sponataneous oncological remission, haleluia and I am very happy for you. However, you are in a minority of less than one percent of one percent. So whiule yours must be truly an amazing story, its hardly suitable to base the treatment of every one else on.

I'd be very interested, from a preofessional stand point, to hear more about your amazing recovery.

 

[fillerbunny]

You are implying that being crushed in half leads to death, this is an ignorant statement (no offence) and should be revised.

I was referring to a post another member had made (which you referred to) in which reference was made to an individual who had sustained injuries in an explosion.. whose body had not only been crushed, but severely burned. I think I made that distinction in the previous post, but maybe not. Frankly, I'm too lazy to go check. Either way, I don't think it's an ignorant statement to presume that someone who has sustained major crush injuries and severe burns over the entirety of his body is probably in a state of excruciating pain that you and I cannot even begin to fathom.. or that said person would likely die- particularly if, as in the scenario provided, medical treatment were not close by.

Frankly, were I in that situation, I would not wish to be spared even if it were possible. The pain would be excruciating for months if not years (if not forever), and the permanent nature of the injuries sustained would likely make it impossible for me to engage in the majority of activities that make life meaningful for me. I place the emphasis on quality, not quantity.

As for you reserving the right to kill yourself, consider this...
Is the act of suicide an act of murder?

Not as far as I'm concerned. Or, apparently, the law.

1.Law. the killing of another human being under conditions specifically covered in law. In the U.S., special statutory definitions include murder committed with malice aforethought, characterized by deliberation or premeditation or occurring during the commission of another serious crime, as robbery or arson (first-degree murder), and murder by intent but without deliberation or premeditation (second-degree murder).

If so how is that murder diferent from killing your mother?

I don't believe suicide is murder. Even if I did, there is an important distinction to be made in that, if I choose to end my life, I am acting upon my own body with my own consent. If I kill my mother, I am ending the life of another.

That said, I also believe there are important distinctions between suicide and euthanasia.

 

[fillerbunny]

The point is missed, humans have a free will up until they die.

When you are terminally ill and your 'life' consists solely of languishing in a hospital bed in excruciating pain, drugged out of your mind, wasting away to nothing, and vomiting fecal matter around the clock, able to do nothing but lay there and think about the fact that A) you're in excruciating pain, B) this is how you're going to spend every last waking minute of every day until you die, and C) it's only going to get worse, where exactly does the exercise of free will come into play? Free to do what, spend another day in bed suffering unimaginable pain?

Pain however horrible is none the less a state of mind, and can be changed.

How so? When one's body is being ravaged by an incurable disease.. when one receives third degree burns over 85% of his body.. when an individual's body is reduced to a bag of putrid human soup courtesy of the ebola virus- I'm talking serious pain here- how exactly does one will himself out of that?

But when one willfully chooses to stop making any future choices they are commiting an ultimate offence against oneself.

That's your opinion. Yet you seek to deny them choice- the choice of a more humane passing if they so desire.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't measure my life by the number of choices I have yet to make, but by its quality. In the absence of quality, when choice is reduced to 'which program would you like us to put on while you lay there, incapacitated, in a semi-conscious state of agony and vomit mass quantities of blood laced with bits of your innards today?', such choices are, IMO, meaningless.

And as for the family dog, I would never have a 'pet', animals have a free will aswell, and I wouldn't want to diminish that by taking a free being as my own and making it my prisoner/slave.

How is a domesticated animal's free will diminished by caring for him? I would say the pet/owner relationship is far more comparable to that of a parent and child than that of a slave and his master.

 

[fillerbunny]

No 'cancering' "spreads".
Were that the case, Brain-cells would wind-up, mixed-up in the Liver-tissues, and floating-around in Skin cells, and migrating over to picnic in the Lungs. The only thing spreading, is more of that Nonsense!

Cancer can and does spread (metastasize). It's not just fallacious medical jargon.. I've seen it happen.

To name a few instances.. I know of an individual whose (untreated) prostate cancer spread to his spinal cord, leaving him paralyzed from the waist down. My ex's mother's breast cancer eventually spread (after ten years and several reoccurrences) to her brain.. she passed away two years ago. Last year, I had to have a rabbit euthanized when uterine cancer metastasized and spread to numerous locations throughout her body. It wasn't the primary tumor that killed her, nor the obvious lump that eventually developed underneath her right forearm, tipping us off to the fact that there was a problem. What killed her was the cancer's eventual spread to her liver.

Here are some links explaining how it works:
http://www.nci.nih.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Sites-Types/metastatic
http://www.cancerhelp.org.uk/help/default.asp?page=103
Some new, more recent findings:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10366968/

 

[wanderingone]

As a matter of fact, Unknown to women in most (but western) cultures, earlier women would (after birthing in a field she was working in, say) return back to work a couple hours later - with both mother & neonate progressing well.

Oh please. We've all heard that. Even if it was true to the extent you and others use it to make women who choose to use pain relief or who choose to actual spend a few days recovering from the work of childbirth because we are fortunate enough to live in a society that allows us that level of comfort is decidedly judgemental and misogynistic. Using examples from societies where life expectancy was short, childbirth was a harrowing near death experience because of the lack of medical care and knowledge about infection, and children are often barely acknowledged until they are a few years old because so many don't "stay with us" does nothing to increase awareness of how to make childbirth less painful.

In some cultures women were confined for more than a month after childbirth and did NOTHING physical other than nurse their child.. how come we like to use the example of women jumping up from childbirth to wade into a rice paddy as an example for modern women? Why can't we use the woman who got to stay in bed for a month?

Most conditioned/Re-imprinted brainwashing re Birth-pain, was decidedly a Western-"education" - (along with forcing a human mother (for the convenience of MD's) into totally-unnatural position of birthing up-side-down with legs up in the air).

Which is why women without high risk factors no longer are expected to labor like that, doctors encourage you to walk around, squat, get on all fours. It doesn't mean you're not in pain, but it certainly can help alleviate the situation. But again, that's about short term pain that you know is going to end even if you don't manage to rise to some other plane of existence where pain is not real.

No 'cancering' "spreads".
Were that the case, Brain-cells would wind-up, mixed-up in the Liver-tissues, and floating-around in Skin cells, and migrating over to picnic in the Lungs. The only thing spreading, is more of that Nonsense!

Oh please (again) word play "cancer spreading" is a simplistic way of speaking, cancer cells break off from the initial growth and move through the blood or lymphatic system causing new cancers to develop in other parts of the body, or it grows locally, putting pressure on tissue around it and causing healthy tissue to die off.

In any case AGAIN you're talking about your personal way of choosing to deal with illness, plenty of people have been carted along on similar journeys and their bodies are dust in the coffin now.

Cancer is not the only terminal illness (and obviously isn't always terminal) or condition that will cause people to choose not to continue treatment or to end their lives because they no longer have a quality of life that is bearable for them.

 

[Mling]

sk8joyful, you've said a lot about "self healing" except how it actually works. If I wanted to, say, make my ventricular-septal defect close up, what would I do or think? I'm planning on getting it checked within a year or so, so I can see if it closed up or not. You say you've taught lots of people to self heal, so why not teach me, how would I go about this?

 

[Merlin]

I'm for life
That puts me against Euthanasia.

I'm for healing

 

[wanderingone]

I'm for life
That puts me against Euthanasia.

I'm for healing

Shoot, I'm for healing too.. and when healing doesn't happen in this life I'm all for the healing balm of the end of worldly pain and suffering.

 

[fillerbunny]

I'm all for life, too. However, I think there's a big difference between existing and truly living.

Unfortunately, healing is not always possible.

Just because modern medicine is capable of prolonging my basic bodily functions does not necessarily mean that it should.

Who does it benefit for me to spend my last days, weeks, months, or years bedridden, incapacitated, and in extreme pain, with no hope of recovery, stripped of all that which made my life meaningful- stripped of all life with the exception of basic bodily function?