Euthanasia

[Merlin]

As a matter of fact, Unknown to women in most (but western) cultures, earlier women would (after birthing in a field she was working in, say) return back to work a couple hours later - with both mother & neonate progressing well.

Hi Annie,

Do you mean something like www.nolaborpain.com ?

 

[Merlin]

Because we have nerves specifically created to warn us when we are in danger of injuring ourselves.

I thought we were discussing in the context of Euthanasia?

As a matter of fact, in some contexts, I do, but that's a different conversation. And there is only so much that "redifining" pain can accomplish. I can get aches and muscle soreness to stop being unpleasant by mentally redefining the experience--telling myself that I am feeling a sensation, like any other, and, since I am in no danger, there is no reason to think of this sensation as "bad." It works for minor pain, but I doubt it would help with something more extreme.

Now that you know it can work (better than most experience) wouldn't it be ok to expand the experience and apply the concept to others, so that *suffering is not an issue*?

 

[TheMissus]

Do you mean something like www.nolaborpain.com ?

I looked at that site and read a lot about their vague promises, but nothing about why they actually do. What is it that they do to guarantee a pain-free labor?

 

[Merlin]

"Existing," without really living, is a mockery of life.

And when they learn
oops, such people can be brought back...
what then?
Or don't they care?

 

[Merlin]

How exactly does one simply 'opt out' of an agonizing, debilitating terminal condition?

It's just a matter of training.

 

[Merlin]

Maybe I'm stupid, but I don't understand what you're saying here.

People do not get to choose how they die. If I knew I was to die in agony, I'd rather die in my own way, on my own time, than have to go through the pain and the uncertainty.

I'm suggesting to not have the pain.
If there is no pain, no agony, then euthanasia for relief of pain is a moot point.

 

[Konkurrent]

And when they learn
oops, such people can be brought back...
what then?
Or don't they care?

That's like saying medical science murders the people who die before a cure is found. What about people who die because no one nearby knew CPR? Did those people, by way of lack of education, kill this person? How about all the people who died because CPR hadn't yet been invented?

Death is a part of life. It's the last part, inevitably, but it's still a part of life.

I've never really understood why people - especially ones that believe in an afterlife - take such an aggressive stance towards trying to prevent all death. What is so vitally important that every nanosecond of this existence be squeezed out?

Why is it that the government can say it's not legal to take my life without my permission (murder) and then say it is legal to maintain my life against my will? If they can't legislate against a desire to stay alive what gives them the right to legislate against a desire to end life? Sure, in the case of mental illness there's a good chance of recovery.

But terminal ilnesses where the pain is either unbearable or the medication causes the person to cease to exist functionally? That's insane.

Look at it another way: is money for dead people or live people? So why does the law require that people be maintained alive as long as is humanly possible - often at tremendous expense to their family? That's rediculous.

Odds are that when I go it will be due to a long-term and exceptionally unpleasant illness. Me, being the compassionate person that I am, thinks it would be exceptionally evil of me to cling to life at the expense of my spouse's financial stability. I married her because I love her, not because I have some satanic desire to see her impoverished.

No, when I wake up in the morning sincerely worried that tomorrow I might not have the strength to end my own life, that's the day I put the expiration date on my birth certificate. Not because I'm afraid of living. Not because I can't take the pain. Not because of anything other than the fact that I love my wife and categorically refuse to run up a six-figure hospital bill before I die.


We start out life working up a debt. Our parents spend an incredible amount of time and money raising us to be adults. We can then work off that debt as adults. I'll be damned before I check out in the red.

 

[Merlin]

Actually I'm in a lot of pain lately with rheumatoid arthritis. I've learned some pain management techniques, which despite the allegations of the "pain is all psychological" crowd doesn't eliminate the pain but allows you a level of distraction. When it gets so bad that I can't manage that, and it's very hard to maintain the level of concentration needed to avoid pain when you're trying to sleep, I opt for pain killers.

I don't like pain which is why I made the obvious statement that sometimes death is a healing from pain.

Excellent!
Now, wouldn't it be wonderful if you could learn complete pain control?
You can

 

[Konkurrent]

Excellent!
Now, wouldn't it be wonderful if you could learn complete pain control?
You can

Why isn't there any scientific proof of this? You can't say that science can't measure faith, because while true it can measure any effect produced by faith. Science is very good at that sort of thing: it takes measurements and tries to attribute a cause, but when there isn't an apparent cause it says "I don't know".


So where's the science saying this stuff works, but it can't figure out why?

 

[Merlin]

I am for life. Heck I wanna grow old wrinkly and grey....

But what's more important: quality or quantity of life?

We can heal many people, but we cannot heal everybody.....some people have incurable illnesses i.e. AIDS, some sort of cancers, ALS and other muscular defects and so on...the list is still too long, but it's just a fact of life today.

We all die eventually.
But why slaughter everyone who gets sick?

 

[belladonic-haze]

It's just a matter of training.

honestly......Buddhist munks train decades to be able to feel hardly no pain.....it is not just a matter of training. Your mind can do a lot of things but let's just see what real pain is , okay?

If you can learn this man to feel no pain by just training.....go ahead! He has AIDS.

 

[Konkurrent]

We all die eventually.
But why slaughter everyone who gets sick?

Strawman much?

 

[Merlin]

I can't think how to phrase this without it sounding mean... but I'll give it my best (please note, this is for EXAMPLARY purposes, not with any malice intended)

I hope you or a close loved one gets a really nasty cancer, that is extremely painful, and robs them or you of all quality and dignity in life, and that you or your loved one spend many months laying helpless in wretched agony, bathed in your own blood, vomit and efluent, in a hospital bed away from home and family, deprived of any sort of real human interaction, just stinking, in pain, and helpless, with absolutely no chance of recovery. Because by denying others euthanasia as an option, this is exactly what you want OTHER people to go through.

OK, so I don't REALLY hope that you or anyone you know gets sick, but I'm trying to be confronting to knock you out of your rose tinted glurge frame of mind that other people's suffering should be prolonged because you wont consider the alternative.

Cancer is readily healable.
Granted, not within the current western medical model, meaning they haven't found a profitable pill yet, but it is readily stopped.
People can stop cancering.

 

[belladonic-haze]

Cancer is readily healable.
Granted, not within the current western medical model, meaning they haven't found a profitable pill yet, but it is readily stopped.
People can stop cancering.

Tell that to two friends of mine. One died of the radiation therapy she got for the breast cancer and the other one died because the chemo killed her. They both died of the 'cure'.

 

[Merlin]

I looked at that site and read a lot about their vague promises, but nothing about why they actually do. What is it that they do to guarantee a pain-free labor?

They teach how.

 

[belladonic-haze]

They teach how.

Try to put an orange up your nostril. My sis said that was what giving birth felt like. She had 4 natural births... And it was nothing compared to the pain that many of her terminally ill patients suffered...

 

[Belk]

For or against?

Why?

This is something that has been on my mind quite a lot lately. Earlier this year I had a hemorrhagic stroke. when I went to the hospital I learned that I have a fairly rare medical condition called an arteriovenous malformation which is a fancy way of saying I have a very good likelyhood of having another stroke. 3 times out of 10 the stroke will result in death or severe brain damage. Will lying there in the hospital I had a lot of time to think about the possibility of becoming a vegtable.

Long story short, I am very afraid of dying. However this fear is nothing compared to the fear I have of living on and that some part of me will be aware of what I have become. That to me is a far worse fate then quietly passing away. I have a living will that states as much, and I would encourage everyone else to create one as well. If my first stroke had turned out different, no one would have known my whises and it would have fallen to my mother to determine if I should live or die. I can't imagine a more difficult choice to have to make as a parent.

 

[belladonic-haze]

This is something that has been on my mind quite a lot lately. Earlier this year I had a hemorrhagic stroke. when I went to the hospital I learned that I have a fairly rare medical condition called an arteriovenous malformation which is a fancy way of saying I have a very good likelyhood of having another stroke. 3 times out of 10 the stroke will result in death or severe brain damage. Will lying there in the hospital I had a lot of time to think about the possibility of becoming a vegtable.

Long story short, I am very afraid of dying. However this fear is nothing compared to the fear I have of living on and that some part of me will be aware of what I have become. That to me is a far worse fate then quietly passing away. I have a living will that states as much, and I would encourage everyone else to create one as well. If my first stroke had turned out different, no one would have known my whises and it would have fallen to my mother to determine if I should live or die. I can't imagine a more difficult choice to have to make as a parent.

Sorry to hear that. I hope you will beat the odds of your illness...

I know you are not a Christian, but I always imagine a heaven for every living being where we are all healthy , happy and have fun....a place filled with love and warmth. And you can do anything you want....so when I die I go scuba diving.....I always wanted to do that but because of my heart condition I am not allowed. When I die, I will do that.....I have this wish-list for God that I want to do as a happy phantom .

I wish you a beautiful and LONG sunny time on earth!

 

[Merlin]

That's like saying medical science murders the people who die before a cure is found. What about people who die because no one nearby knew CPR?

Then you've changed the context of the discussion.

But terminal ilnesses where the pain is either unbearable or the medication causes the person to cease to exist functionally? That's insane.

I agree.
But I don't think slaughtering the ill is the answer.
I prefer to teach them how to stop paining.

No, when I wake up in the morning sincerely worried that tomorrow I might not have the strength to end my own life, that's the day I put the expiration date on my birth certificate. Not because I'm afraid of living. Not because I can't take the pain. Not because of anything other than the fact that I love my wife and categorically refuse to run up a six-figure hospital bill before I die.

So, you measure the value of life by money/materialism.
Many of us don't.

We start out life working up a debt. Our parents spend an incredible amount of time and money raising us to be adults. We can then work off that debt as adults. I'll be damned before I check out in the red.

That would also justify the slaughter of about 90% of the world's population.
I respectfully disagree with your materialistic view.

 

[sk8Joyful]

I can't think how to phrase this without it sounding mean... but I'll give it my best (please note, this is for EXAMPLARY purposes, not with any malice intended)

Horseman,
I've checked, and found out you're a NURSE.

I was "schooled, trained, and experienced" as one, myself - so I know, from experience, the "Hopelessly miserable mind.SET" that that can change a person to. Evidenced in

your writing:

1. "I HOPE you, or a close loved one, gets a really nasty cancer,
2. I HOPE is extremely painful, and
3. I HOPE you that you, or your loved one, spend many months laying helpless in wretched agony,
4. I HOPE bathed in your own blood, vomit and efluent,
5. I HOPE in a hospital bed away from home and family, deprived of any sort of real human interaction, just stinking, in pain, and helpless, with absolutely no chance of recovery.

6. Because by denying others euthanasia as an option, this is exactly what you want OTHER people to go through.
OK, so I don't REALLY hope that you or anyone you know gets sick, BUT..."

What in your post, was there of a *Praise?~worthy? Nature*?

Let me tell you: Practitioners of the Joyful "Healing-arts", are a small but growing group of Individuals,
Guiding other Individuals into living their own such Praise~worthy* lives...

I'm trying to be confronting, to knock you out of your rose tinted glurge frame of mind,
that other people's suffering should be prolonged, because you wont consider the alternative.

Might it occur to you, that some of us (yes, including 'Nurses, MD's & PhD's'), have helped - and
will continue Guiding & mentoring chronic dis-eases-sufferers, via self*HEALing...* processes.
This IS "the Alternative"... increasingly people want...

Annie