Europe and Spending Choices

[Nithavela]

From what I can find of Germany's budget, they spend about 9% on defense, which is much better than those trying to scrape up 2%, but it's still not over half the budget, like here

Over half the budget is, for want of a better word, total overkill. And I don't think that the world WANTS germany to invest as much money as possible into its military, considering germany's history. I mean, we could go back to being highly militarised and aggressive. Some people are advocating for it, and honestly, considering the amount of flak germany drew for being compassionate to refugees, I can see their point.

Part of the problem here, besides Obamacare, is that big pharma is untouchable, the FDA is out of control, and insurance for doctors is outrageous due to doctors protecting doctors, and lawsuit abuse. Bad doctors should be prosecuted and part of the penalty should be losing their money to their victims, not to lawyers. And lawyers' fees in lawsuits should be limited to hours worked, not amount of money gained for the victims.

The main problem is that a bag of saline costs 1000$ in US hospitals. Your health industry is milking you dry for every penny it can get. Your insurances lack barganing power or have no incentive to bargain in any case.

 

[Nithavela]

So, that may keep Russia, Estonia and Sweden from marching across the borders, but what about missiles, planes or ships? And Denmark could row right up the Baltic Sea to strike.

I think that the main defense of finland is that it's inhabited by an unreasonable amount of fins.

 

[Kalevalatar]

So, that may keep Russia, Estonia and Sweden from marching across the borders, but what about missiles, planes or ships? And Denmark could row right up the Baltic Sea to strike.

And don't forget them Norwegians!

 

[Gene2memE]

People in Europe like to denigrate the USA for not having free (government tax paid) healthcare for everyone. We could afford a lot more too, if we didn't have to pay over 53% of our GNP to fund the military that protects them as well as ourselves. All the while, much of Europe can't scrape together 2% for defense because of their massive welfare programs.

53% of GNP?

Sniff, sniff. Ewww, that don't smell right.

Lets see:
US GNP 2015: $18,496,028,000,000. That's ~$18.5 trillion
US defence budget 2015 (including support budget): $736,400,000,000. That's ~$736 billion

US defence budget as a proportion of GNP: 3.98%.

If you'd used US federal budget discretionary spending then that would be closer, but still wrong.

 

[pat34lee]

53% of GNP?

Sniff, sniff. Ewww, that don't smell right.

Lets see:
US GNP 2015: $18,496,028,000,000. That's ~$18.5 trillion
US defence budget 2015 (including support budget): $736,400,000,000. That's ~$736 billion

US defence budget as a proportion of GNP: 3.98%.

If you'd used US federal budget discretionary spending then that would be closer, but still wrong.

You are correct, I don't think that the number I found added in mandatory spending, and it was the budget, not the GDP.
I edited the OP. Let me know if anything is still wrong.
Thank you for the heads up on it.

Note that the one Constitutional duty of government, defense, is now outspent by two separate unConstitutional roles, social programs and healthcare.

"Once you include the 60 percent of the budget that is mandatory spending, the military share plunges from 57 percent to 16 percent, and the categories that include Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid collectively account for a majority of federal spending.Aug 17, 2015"

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Edited due to bad numbers and %'s.

People in Europe like to denigrate the USA for not having free (government tax paid) healthcare for everyone. We could afford a lot more too, if we didn't have to pay over 16% of our national budget (not GDP as I put mistakenly) to fund the military that protects them as well as ourselves. All the while, much of Europe can't scrape together 2% for defense because of their massive welfare programs. We are quickly approaching that point ourselves.
Pence Tells NATO Allies to Pay More for Defense

No wonder they are such pushovers in Europe. Muslims are making themselves right at home and will own most of it in a few years.

False comparision. The reason why health care in the US is a disaster, is not because the money is flowing to the military.

The reason health care there is a disaster, is because it is unethically privatised and not nearly enough regulation is in place. Plenty of "third parties" that actually add NOTHING to the services of health care or the quality thereof, are just in there to take a "piece of the pie". Insurance companies etc... people who actually earn money by not paying your medical bill.

If the US would implement a system like we know it in most of western europe, the US would actually be spending LESS per capita then it does now... while quality would go up, waiting times would go down and health would become a basic service instead of a luxury product.

So not only is your reasoning wrong... it actually is SO wrong that if the US would implement such a universal care system, it would actually cost LESS then the system they have in place now.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

"Universal health care" is often rhetoric more than substance. Considering that what you get under Obamacare is mediocre, generally. And that's really what Europeans get, too

As a Belgian european, I can tell you that the quality of our health care is great.

Not cutting edge research, for the most part.

Errr.... medical doctors don't engage in research. Their job is to treat people using the knowledge that comes our of research - which is done elsewhere.

Our Belgian universities' research is just fine and is actually a forerunner in plenty of area's of cancer treatments.

So I think it's just rhetoric on the part of Europeans, criticizing a system that embodies different values.

No... it's just based on numbers and objective data.

Americans value individual choice alot more, and don't like having the government limit their options.

That's funny, cause I actually have more options then the average american.
For example, I can be treated at any hospital, by any doctor. I don't first need to check that my insurance has a deal with said hospital.

In teh US a person was free to opt out of western medicine, for instance, and go to chiropractors or doctors of Oriental medicine. In Europe, people pay so much in taxes that isn't really an option.

??

I don't think your private insurance in the US is going to reïmburse you for seeing a conman who claims to be able to cure your cancer with voodoo shenannigans.

 

[pat34lee]

As a Belgian european, I can tell you that the quality of our health care is great.

When you consider that most medical innovations come from either Israel or the US, and most drugs are created in the US, that makes it a lot easier on other countries, especially those with 'flexible' rules on copying patented drugs or medical inventions. Not saying either applies in this case. Just that patenting is neither easy nor cheap.

 

[TheNorwegian]

When you consider that most medical innovations come from either Israel or the US, and most drugs are created in the US, that makes it a lot easier on other countries, especially those with 'flexible' rules on copying patented drugs or medical inventions. Not saying either applies in this case. Just that patenting is neither easy nor cheap.

This is not correct. Among the five biggest pharmaceutical companies in the world - only one is a US based company: Pfizer who is only number two on that list. The largest pharmaceutical companies and their HQ are:

1. Novartis (Switzerland)
2. Pfizer (USA)
3. Roche (Switzerland)
4. Sanofi (France)
5. Merck (Germany

Source: Top 25 Pharma Companies by Global Revenue - Top Pharma List - PMLiVE

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

When you consider that most medical innovations come from either Israel or the US

That is irrelevant.
Health care and medical research are two different things.

Having said that, Belgium is a world player in cancer research.

, and most drugs are created in the US, that makes it a lot easier on other countries, especially those with 'flexible' rules on copying patented drugs or medical inventions. Not saying either applies in this case

Then why mention it?

We are talking about health care. Not about medical research and medical science.
Your housedoctor is not a medical scientist.

You are confusing the science with the practical application.

Just that patenting is neither easy nor cheap.

Irrelevant to the practical application of actually treating people with whatever knowledge and technology is available at that point.

How long before you get surgeory starting the day of your diagnose?
How much do you pay?
How much follow up treatment do you get for what price?
etc etc.

This has nothing to do with medical science and everything with health care.

 

[pat34lee]

How long before you get surgeory starting the day of your diagnose?
How much do you pay?
How much follow up treatment do you get for what price?
etc etc.

All of that ties in with how much your doctor or hospital pays for supplies and medical machines, not to mention malpractice insurance. Overhead costs.
Canada keeps malpractice cost in check

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

All of that ties in with how much your doctor or hospital pays for supplies and medical machines, not to mention malpractice insurance. Overhead costs.

In the US, perhaps.
Over here, where prices are regulated and where no "third parties" exist that contribute NOTHING to health care, but who's sole existance is to grab a piece of the pie, you pay the same fee as anyone else for a visit to a housedoc.

When you need surgery, you pay the same franchise as anyone else.

A couple years ago, I required surgery with a follow up of 20 revalidation therapy sessions.
2 workdays after my housedoc diagnose, I saw a specialist. He put me in an MRI scanner and also had some additional scans taken.
2 days after that, I was on the operation table and spend the night at the hospital.
So that's diagnose on monday and surgery on thursday.
Then several weeks of revalidation therapy.
Then another housedoc visit to take out the threads.
Finally, a follow up visit with the specialist to see if everything ended up okay.


At the end of the road the entire thing, from start to end, cost me 260 bucks. And the only reason it was that much(*) is because I added another 20 sessions of therapy because I still felt a bit discomfort while playing the drums.

(*) yes indeed, 260 bucks for the entire package is actually considered *expensive* over here for such a thing.......

I bet that in the US, even WITH private insurance, you'ld still pay a multitude of that for all the housedoc visits, specialist opinions, MRI / Radio scans, surgery, revalidation,...

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me that the scans alone would already cost more then 260 bucks. Am I right?

And how about waiting times?
Given that you aren't a millionaire and just some "middle class" dude with a normal middle class income... Would you be on the operation table within 4 workdays of the first housedoc visit? Or would it rather be 4 weeks?

 

[pat34lee]

In the US, perhaps.
Over here, where prices are regulated and where no "third parties" exist that contribute NOTHING to health care, but who's sole existance is to grab a piece of the pie, you pay the same fee as anyone else for a visit to a housedoc.

When you need surgery, you pay the same franchise as anyone else.

A couple years ago, I required surgery with a follow up of 20 revalidation therapy sessions.
2 workdays after my housedoc diagnose, I saw a specialist. He put me in an MRI scanner and also had some additional scans taken.
2 days after that, I was on the operation table and spend the night at the hospital.
So that's diagnose on monday and surgery on thursday.
Then several weeks of revalidation therapy.
Then another housedoc visit to take out the threads.
Finally, a follow up visit with the specialist to see if everything ended up okay.


At the end of the road the entire thing, from start to end, cost me 260 bucks. And the only reason it was that much(*) is because I added another 20 sessions of therapy because I still felt a bit discomfort while playing the drums.

(*) yes indeed, 260 bucks for the entire package is actually considered *expensive* over here for such a thing.......

I bet that in the US, even WITH private insurance, you'ld still pay a multitude of that for all the housedoc visits, specialist opinions, MRI / Radio scans, surgery, revalidation,...

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me that the scans alone would already cost more then 260 bucks. Am I right?

And how about waiting times?
Given that you aren't a millionaire and just some "middle class" dude with a normal middle class income... Would you be on the operation table within 4 workdays of the first housedoc visit? Or would it rather be 4 weeks?

I have no idea, never having anything of the sort done. What if you were a little older, say 70? 80? Does everything run as smooth, quick and cheap for those past working age?

 

[Zoii]

Ameria spends 3.3% of GDP on defence spending, Russia 5.4%, Britain 2%, France 2.1% and Germany 1.2%.

Maybe you are thinking of US defence spending as a percentage of US Government spending.

The reason Americans haven't got an NHS is that they don't want to pay for it.

Im not being disrespectful....But Americans ARE paying for health care via your insurance. In my opinion the reason the USA doesnt have a national health scheme is that Health Services/Insurers are one of your most powerful lobbies, and moving health from the free market private arena to one owned by the public isnt in their interest.

 

[pat34lee]

Im not being disrespectful....But Americans ARE paying for health care via your insurance. In my opinion the reason the USA doesnt have a national health scheme is that Health Services/Insurers are one of your most powerful lobbies, and moving health from the free market private arena to one owned by the public isnt in their interest.

That is probably a large part of it. Government overregulations are another. And they are paid by the lobbies, no surprise.

 

[pat34lee]

In the US, perhaps.
Over here, where prices are regulated and where no "third parties" exist that contribute NOTHING to health care, but who's sole existance is to grab a piece of the pie, you pay the same fee as anyone else for a visit to a housedoc.

When you need surgery, you pay the same franchise as anyone else.

It sounds good, and if it were done in the US through the states instead of the federal government, I might support it (depends on the exact plan).

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I have no idea, never having anything of the sort done. What if you were a little older, say 70? 80? Does everything run as smooth, quick and cheap for those past working age?

Yes.