Eucharistic Miracles

[FaithT]

I’ve read all the books and reports, by those who conducted them. But I’ve never heard of that!

Some labs refused when they were told the origin.
Some pathologists were given a very hard time , for saying what they thought. I’m not aware of pathologists refusing to report afterwards.

I’m just commenting on what JB said. BTW, take a look at my OP on the Catholic board, titled, “Biblical Guidance.”

 

[FaithT]

I’m just commenting on what JB said. BTW, take a look at my OP on the Catholic board, titled, “Biblical Guidance.”

I’m probably going to return to the Catholic Church. I’m going to Mass and Confession tomorrow morning.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Hi Faith,
I see that you reverted to Catholicism and hope that all is well with you there.

I find the Eucharist miracles fascinating myself and don't wish to alter your faith in them if they have led you toward a more intimate relationship with Christ.

However, I do wonder about the appropriateness of submitting the Body and Blood of Christ to scientific testing. Also, these miracles do call into question for me the idea that the Eucharist itself (in it's Sacramental form) is the greatest miracle. Also, if Christ bid us, "take and eat", why would he alter the Eucharist in such a way that we can no longer do as he says?

I just received a Catholic magazine in the mail today that talks about the Eucharist and to some degree, Eucharistic Miracles. As a LCMS convert I must admit that the miracles make me question my choice in converting. The article mentions the miracles of Sokolka, Poland; Lanciano, Italy; as well as others. There are probably hundreds of them with many changing to human blood and or human heart tissue.
If Lutheranism is right then what are these miracles? And why doesn’t this happen in a Lutheran church?

 

[Mountainmike]

Hi Faith,
I see that you reverted to Catholicism and hope that all is well with you there.

I find the Eucharist miracles fascinating myself and don't wish to alter your faith in them if they have led you toward a more intimate relationship with Christ.

However, I do wonder about the appropriateness of submitting the Body and Blood of Christ to scientific testing. Also, these miracles do call into question for me the idea that the Eucharist itself (in it's Sacramental form) is the greatest miracle. Also, if Christ bid us, "take and eat", why would he alter the Eucharist in such a way that we can no longer do as he says?

We cannot know the mind of God. But all is for a purpose.

Since much of the population decided they only have trust in science, just maybe that is Jesus saying
"if science is where you are looking, and all you trust, I will show myself there!!"

I repeated this elsewhere on an evolution thread.
One fascination of all the EM is they are not only traumatized cardiac tissue but recently alive (white cells) which is impossible according to pathologists. The white cells should not be there.

Another is even more fascinating.
Human identification by forensics is done by counting repeats of redundant DNA sequences at places on the genome. So we all have a bar code - the number of repeats of each of the sequences. So who is the person of the EM?

The EM show human DNA but no human identification repeats! The DNA has in effect bar code all zero. Yet it IS human DNA that amplifies. And it has maternal DNA sequence haplo group. So it really is human and not known how to fake it! Is Jesus bar code 0? It cannot therefore be a bit of a cadaver used to perpetrate a fraud. That would show the "bar code" DNA identity of the cadaver.

It is also interesting that the prodigies happen in an act of dropping or profaning the eucharist!

 

[FaithT]

Hi Faith,
I see that you reverted to Catholicism and hope that all is well with you there.

I find the Eucharist miracles fascinating myself and don't wish to alter your faith in them if they have led you toward a more intimate relationship with Christ.

However, I do wonder about the appropriateness of submitting the Body and Blood of Christ to scientific testing. Also, these miracles do call into question for me the idea that the Eucharist itself (in it's Sacramental form) is the greatest miracle. Also, if Christ bid us, "take and eat", why would he alter the Eucharist in such a way that we can no longer do as he says?

I’m once again back to Lutheranism, LCMS.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I’m once again back to Lutheranism, LCMS.

Faith,
Be patient with yourself. It sounds like you are not giving yourself time to truly investigate, study and reflect. It's fine to attend both churches for awhile. What exactly is prompting the need to decide right now? Is it so that you won't be without the Eucharist?

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Hi Mike,

I am of two minds when it comes to EM.

My first reaction is, "Wow! That's so cool." Like you indicated, "Dear, Skeptical World, see Christ really did die for our sins and is present with us now. Believe!" My second reaction is the one I indicated previously, "Why are these samples in a lab to begin with? Someone from the Church had to sign off on this. Why would Christians send the Body and Blood of our Lord to a lab? To see if it's mold? So what if it is. I'd be willing to risk that rather than have my Lord's cells under a microscope. If it's demonic then science isn't going to help us anyway. Christ said, "Take eat". He is the Bread of Life and Immortality, not a mere mortal. It seems unseemly."

We cannot know the mind of God. But all is for a purpose.

Since much of the population decided they only have trust in science, just maybe that is Jesus saying
"if science is where you are looking, and all you trust, I will show myself there!!"

I repeated this elsewhere on an evolution thread.
One fascination of all the EM is they are not only traumatized cardiac tissue but recently alive (white cells) which is impossible according to pathologists. The white cells should not be there.

Another is even more fascinating.
Human identification by forensics is done by counting repeats of redundant DNA sequences at places on the genome. So we all have a bar code - the number of repeats of each of the sequences. So who is the person of the EM?

The EM show human DNA but no human identification repeats! The DNA has in effect bar code all zero. Yet it IS human DNA that amplifies. And it has maternal DNA sequence haplo group. So it really is human and not known how to fake it! Is Jesus bar code 0? It cannot therefore be a bit of a cadaver used to perpetrate a fraud. That would show the "bar code" DNA identity of the cadaver.

It is also interesting that the prodigies happen in an act of dropping or profaning the eucharist!

 

[FaithT]

Faith,
Be patient with yourself. It sounds like you are not giving yourself time to truly investigate, study and reflect. It's fine to attend both churches for awhile. What exactly is prompting the need to decide right now? Is it so that you won't be without the Eucharist?

No,I guess I’m just antsy. I talked with my Lutheran pastor several weeks ago and I’m satisfied now with remaining Lutheran.

 

[KagomeShuko]

I just received a Catholic magazine in the mail today that talks about the Eucharist and to some degree, Eucharistic Miracles. As a LCMS convert I must admit that the miracles make me question my choice in converting. The article mentions the miracles of Sokolka, Poland; Lanciano, Italy; as well as others. There are probably hundreds of them with many changing to human blood and or human heart tissue.
If Lutheranism is right then what are these miracles? And why doesn’t this happen in a Lutheran church?

So, Lutherans believe in the real presence, which is saying that Jesus is present, but it doesn't mean the bread and wine are truly Jesus's body and blood, but they aren't just symbolic, either.

Who says that God COULDN'T make them into the body and blood of Jesus if that is needed for people to believe?

Miracles happen. I think to say it can't happen is limiting God. We shouldn't do that.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

So, Lutherans believe in the real presence, which is saying that Jesus is present, but it doesn't mean the bread and wine are truly Jesus's body and blood, but they aren't just symbolic, either.

Who says that God COULDN'T make them into the body and blood of Jesus if that is needed for people to believe?

Miracles happen. I think to say it can't happen is limiting God. We shouldn't do that.

Confessional Lutherans hold that Christ's Body and blood and bread and wine are both physically present on the altar... in, with and under the bread and wine. Why? because Scripture uses both when speaking about the Eucharist. How? That is up to God.

 

[Markie Boy]

After being in a Catholic church, I struggled with a lot of things. Ended up at a Trad Catholic website, where even they as Trad Catholics were saying the "miracle" of the Incorruptible Saints was a scam - bodies kept in refrigeration, wrinkles filled in with wax, etc. - are hardly a miracle. In the end I just don't trust the source, so don't pay much attention to it.

 

[Mountainmike]

After being in a Catholic church, I struggled with a lot of things. Ended up at a Trad Catholic website, where even they as Trad Catholics were saying the "miracle" of the Incorruptible Saints was a scam - bodies kept in refrigeration, wrinkles filled in with wax, etc. - are hardly a miracle. In the end I just don't trust the source, so don't pay much attention to it.

Just setting the record straight.

I suggest you go back to (such) as the exhumation pathology reports of such as bernadette. What people think is of no consequence. The fact of later wax applied to her face was to avoid the ghoulish appearance which arose from blackening when it was washed. It is not a preservative.

The reality is many of these bodies do not decompose as they should. Nor indeed do (for example) the thousand year old eucharistic miracle at lanciano, still recognisable in pathology as human heart tissue. There is no way it should have survived this long naturally. It should have decomposed in days or weeks.

The eucharistic miracles ( and others such as the bleeding statue of cochabamba) are backed by pathologists and many scientific reports. Several of The miracles have visible white cells. Leucocytes. That is remarkable because they decay in hours in vitro or after death. They are a strong indication the samples taken for microscopy were alive at the time of section. A pathologist robert lawrence (one of many on different continents for different miracles) who examined samples said they are "compelling evidence of creation of heart tissue" from a non living wafer. Note the word creation.

The inedia of alexandrina da costa (not eathing, drinking, urinating, defecating) was observed for 20 days in a controlled and restricted hospital room. She remained lucid, and lost no weight at all. All she consumed was eucharist. She was paralysed so incapable of leaving the room. Those who entered the room were strictly controlled. When atheist doctors did not believe their own results, they extended the trial for another 20 days under even more restrictive conditions. She survived unchanged, just the same.. No weight loss. The doctors wrote a report that admitted it was scientifically inexplicable.

The fakes are annoying (such as the bleeding statue of civatecchia - the blood was shown to have the same DNA as the owner of it!) because the fakes serve to distract. But one fake does not alter validity of genuine miracles.

So just because some doubt it, do not dismiss them, do the digging and discover it is validated by medics and scientists.

 

[Markie Boy]

Just setting the record straight.

I suggest you go back to (such) as the exhumation pathology reports of such as bernadette. What people think is of no consequence. The fact of later wax applied to her face was to avoid the ghoulish appearance which arose from blackening when it was washed. It is not a preservative.

The reality is many of these bodies do not decompose as they should. Nor indeed do (for example) the thousand year old eucharistic miracle at lanciano, still recognisable in pathology as human heart tissue. There is no way it should have survived this long naturally. It should have decomposed in days or weeks.

The eucharistic miracles ( and others such as the bleeding statue of cochabamba) are backed by pathologists and many scientific reports. Several of The miracles have visible white cells. Leucocytes. That is remarkable because they decay in hours in vitro or after death. They are a strong indication the samples taken for microscopy were alive at the time of section. A pathologist robert lawrence (one of many on different continents for different miracles) who examined samples said they are "compelling evidence of creation of heart tissue" from a non living wafer. Note the word creation.

The inedia of alexandrina da costa (not eathing, drinking, urinating, defecating) was observed for 20 days in a controlled and restricted hospital room. She remained lucid, and lost no weight at all. All she consumed was eucharist. She was paralysed so incapable of leaving the room. Those who entered the room were strictly controlled. When atheist doctors did not believe their own results, they extended the trial for another 20 days under even more restrictive conditions. She survived unchanged, just the same.. No weight loss. The doctors wrote a report that admitted it was scientifically inexplicable.

The fakes are annoying (such as the bleeding statue of civatecchia - the blood was shown to have the same DNA as the owner of it!) because the fakes serve to distract. But one fake does not alter validity of genuine miracles.

So just because some doubt it, do not dismiss them, do the digging and discover it is validated by medics and scientists.

On things that are "fringe", credibility is huge. Why promote something like incorruptible saints, that are kept in coolers with atmosphere control? The credibility just isn't there for me, which is why I don't post in the Catholic forum.

 

[Mountainmike]

On things that are "fringe", credibility is huge. Why promote something like incorruptible saints, that are kept in coolers with atmosphere control? The credibility just isn't there for me, which is why I don't post in the Catholic forum.

All I suggest is give it a chance .
See what the science - not lay people - say.
Try Serafinis book “ a cardiologist examines Jesus”
The pathologists believe it.
The evidence is far better than you may think. The DNA and Maternal DNA issues are fascinating !

 

[FaithT]

All I suggest is give it a chance .
See what the science - not lay people - say.
Try Serafinis book “ a cardiologist examines Jesus”
The pathologists believe it.
The evidence is far better than you may think. The DNA and Maternal DNA issues are fascinating !

I’m interested in the Miracle of Lanciano but the whole corruptibles thing kind of grosses me out.

 

[Mountainmike]

I’m interested in the Miracle of Lanciano but the whole corruptibles thing kind of grosses me out.

You are aware of the other EM?
Particularly
Buenos airies
Sokolka
Tixtla
Legnica
All of which are recent and have a mass of pathology/ forensic evidence.
The most interesting aspects are
- the white cells showing recent life.
- Intimate intermingling of bread and flesh at the edges so impossible to fake
- progressive change over a period so not a substitution
- and DNA which shows there is no fraud from a cadaver.
- all independent locations and teams , so no common fraudster.

 

[Markie Boy]

Want to say thank you Mountainmike for keeping a kind tone.

 

[Markie Boy]

Eucharistic miracles really make you pause and think. One piece I just read made an interesting point. Most of these miracles have happened when a priest was doubting the real presence or it happened to someone who stole a consecrated host. Maybe what happened was meant only as a warning to the people involved?

Every time I read about miracles, while I don’t necessarily believe or not believe them, I am always drawn back to the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. The rich man begs Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers so they’ll believe. Abraham responds and says they have Moses and the prophets and if they don’t believe them, then they wouldn’t believe if someone were to rise from the dead.

We believe because we have faith and believe what the Word says about Jesus.

(Side note, anyone ever read that parable and think it might not just be a parable but something that actually happened?)

I had thought of the same parable.

While in the Catholic Church I found there were quite a few miracle chasers. Some flew around the world to Medjugorje seeking apparaitions of Mary or messages from seers. Just too much of these things for my taste. Many of these places have turned into big destinations and seem to make a lot of money.

I'll stick to scripture and faith for the most part.

 

[FaithT]

You are aware of the other EM?
Particularly
Buenos airies
Sokolka
Tixtla
Legnica
All of which are recent and have a mass of pathology/ forensic evidence.
The most interesting aspects are
- the white cells showing recent life.
- Intimate intermingling of bread and flesh at the edges so impossible to fake
- progressive change over a period so not a substitution
- and DNA which shows there is no fraud from a cadaver.
- all independent locations and teams , so no common fraudster.

Yeah, although I’ve mentioned some of those, including Lanciano, online before and the idea was picked a part by one or two posters.

 

[Mountainmike]

I had thought of the same parable.

While in the Catholic Church I found there were quite a few miracle chasers. Some flew around the world to Medjugorje seeking apparaitions of Mary or messages from seers. Just too much of these things for my taste. Many of these places have turned into big destinations and seem to make a lot of money.

I'll stick to scripture and faith for the most part.

I have to say I agree. As an outsider coming in to Catholicism I am disappointed how few cradle Catholics understand their own faith , indeed how there is too much reliance on the next “ miracle” regardless of proof. Faith should not rely on such phenomena. The church clearly states it, and that even belief in them is optional.

But and it’s a very big but: some of these are undoubtedly verifiable.
Science confirms the miraculous really has happened . The prophecies of Fatima and Kibeho were certainly fulfilled. The messages very pertinent to our time. The medical threshold for a lourdes miracle is staggeringly High. But medgorje is largely discredited. Not all stand scrutiny. The bleeding statue of civatecchia was proven by forensics as a fraud. Where the bleeding statue of Cochabamba stands forensic scrutiny.
The trick is sorting wheat from chaff. Make of it what you will.

anyway, I respect this is a Lutheran forum so I don’t want to discuss Catholicism here. I just want to say to all there is a mass of forensic evidence that confirms the Eucharistic miracles are real. Make of that what you will in theological terms. I’m just after promoting evidence where it is verifiable.