Ethnocentrism

Montalban said:

If I send you my address can you come around my place with a Bible?

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Any time! Well, any time that I'm down in Australia. But I must warn you that my Bible doesn't have an apocrypha.

Morton said:

What makes your sect superior? Why are they the heretics and not you?

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Because they feature Benny Hinn.

Montalban said:

Jesus proclaimed a 'new covenant'.

He also expanded and changed 'the law'

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Yay for contradiction.

The status of Grand Inquisitor required confirmation from the pope, which means they were a group that enjoyed Papal sanction, meaning that Church officials of the time didn't see their position as off the mark in scripture or otherwise. How much more connection do you need?

It was this same line of heretical warfare that motivated Cortez. After battles with the 'heathens' he would hold mass and convert as many of the surviving natives as would accept it. There were times that he would convert them, then expedite them on their way to heaven, a common Inquisitorial practice, which was occuring in his homeland. A great many of Cortez's actions suggest he was quite familiar with Inquisition approach to dealing with heretics, they also suggest that despite the bloodshed he was a very religious man.

But I have a feeling, unless I caught it all on tape with God narrating in a play by play manner, it's just not going to be enough evidence for you.

arunma said:

Because they feature Benny Hinn.

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And Benny Hinn as a faith healer is one of the most dishonest men on the planet? We agree on that score.

The problem is you are now dictating what is the correct way to preach the Bible and what isn't. And you've put a divide between yourself and certain evangelical Christians because you both disagree on this issue of how to present scripture.

Which supports my original point. Thank you.

MortonGneiss said:

Which supports my original point. Thank you.

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Morton, as far as I can tell, you didn't have an original point. Unless, of course, you meant to argue that "I don't like Christianity."

arunma said:

Morton, as far as I can tell, you didn't have an original point. Unless, of course, you meant to argue that "I don't like Christianity."

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Not quite, but that's certainly there. The original point was that Judeo-Christianity, while being divisive enough to faction off into several thousand sects, is ethnocentric at it's core, which is why none of the factions will ever reconcile their differences.

You proved this by renouncing televangelism, which has more or less equal claim to righteousness as your sect. And for every example you would demonize their beliefs with, another Christian Church could find heresy with yours.

arunma said:

Any time! Well, any time that I'm down in Australia. But I must warn you that my Bible doesn't have an apocrypha.

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It won't make that much difference when you whack me with it. That was what I was talking about.

MortonGneiss said:

Yay for contradiction.

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I thought you were going to ignore my posts. Contradiction?

MortonGneiss said:

The status of Grand Inquisitor required confirmation from the pope, which means they were a group that enjoyed Papal sanction, meaning that Church officials of the time didn't see their position as off the mark in scripture or otherwise. How much more connection do you need?

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The Pope doesn't speak for Christ (except according to Catholicism), so unless you take up the Catholic argument that the Pope does indeed speak for Christ you've made no connection.

Then, if you get over that, you'd have to show how 'relative' this 'killing of witches' is compared to Islam and the hatred of Jews, Christians, pagans too.

MortonGneiss said:

It was this same line of heretical warfare that motivated Cortez.

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Then you haven't read up on it.
Cortez was motivated by wealth and fame. The vast majority of his army that attacked Mexico was made up of Indians who'd be oppressed by the Aztecs (and thus it was essentially a pagan -v- pagan campaign, anyway).

MortonGneiss said:

After battles with the 'heathens' he would hold mass and convert as many of the surviving natives as would accept it. There were times that he would convert them, then expedite them on their way to heaven, a common Inquisitorial practice, which was occuring in his homeland.

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I thought you said that the Bible said to kill witches! You don't even having him following what you claim is the motivational verse.

MortonGneiss said:

A great many of Cortez's actions suggest he was quite familiar with Inquisition approach to dealing with heretics, they also suggest that despite the bloodshed he was a very religious man.

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re: Pope above. Also, my church didn't have an inquisition.

MortonGneiss said:

But I have a feeling, unless I caught it all on tape with God narrating in a play by play manner, it's just not going to be enough evidence for you.

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No need for 'tape'. Just a clear connection in any format.

So far you're attacking Christianity, then 'institutionalised Christianity' based on a verse about witches; which Jesus didn't adhere to (Jesus you may recall was that fella who talked about loving everyone). Then taking that verse you have Cortez attacking the New World based on the supposition that there's a link between this and the Inquisition, founded as it was by the Pope claiming it on his own authority. Well done.

well i do think that christians think they are superior , they either dont realize it or they deny it . i have observed many instances where christians have put down "heathens" and acted like they are superior just on account of being christian . its like a non christians view doesnt matter . some have also said God only listens to the prayers of christians while some have said things like " we are christian , we are better people with better morals than non christians" (!) or things that imply that is such a non christian thing to do , that is beneath us . i am not trying to stereotype all christians , this refers to the more fundamentalist ones .

also arunma indian culture is largely synonmous with hindu culture ."indian" festivals like holi , diwali,raksha bandhan, ganpati , durga pooja are all hindu festivals . yoga , surya namaskar are hindu practises . ayurveda is the old vedic(hindu) form of medicine . today when u talk about indian weddings the hindu wedding comes to mind with all its different ceremonies . u talk about diwali , the rangoli is made to welcome Goddess lakshmi .
"indian" dances are deeply hindu in content or danced on hindu festivals ( dandiya and garba are danced during the hindu auspicious festival of navratri)
Kathakali literally means story-play and is an elaborate dance depicting the victory of truth over falsehood.
A Striking feature of Kathakali is the use of elaborate make-up and colourful costumes. This is to emphasize that the characters are superbeings from another world, and their make-up is easily recognisable to the trained eye as satvik or godlike, rajasik or heroic, and tamasik or demonic. satvik , rajasik and tamasik are the qualities which hindus recognize and identify in individuals.
The theme of Mohini attam dance is love and devotion to god. Vishnu or Krishna is most often the hero.
Odissi is based on the popular devotion to Lord Krishna and the verses of the Sanskrit play Geet Govinda are used to depict the love and devotion to God. The Odissi dancers use their head, bust and torso in soft flowing movements to express specific moods and emotions.Odissi performances are replete with lores of the eighth incarnation of Vishnu, Lord Krishna.
Bharata Natyam dance has been handed down through the centuries by dance teachers (or gurus) called nattuwanars and the temple dancers, called devadasis. In the sacred environment of the temple these familes developed and propagated their heritage.
Kuchipudi stil exists today and can most closely be associated with the Sanskrit theatrical tradition is Kuchipudi which is also known as Bhagavata Mela Natakam.Bhagavata mela natakam was always performed as an offering to the temples of either Merratur, Soolamangalam, Oothkadu, Nallur or Theperumanallur.
Kathak is inextricably bound with classical Hindustani music, and the rhythmic nimbleness of the feet is accompanied by the table or pakhawaj. Traditionally the stories were of Radha and Krishna.

as u can see by my examples indian culture is deeply entrenched in hinduism . this is not to say that it has had no impact from other religions( it has by primarily islam in terms of language and food) or that people of other religions cannot practise indian culture . but they should be aware that what they are practising is primarily hindu in content and as soon as u take away the hindu elements or try to eliminate them u have no longer the classical indian culture with its original meaning

also am a little suprised by your attempt to equate bollywood with indian culture . i hope you realize that bollywood is only 50 years old and india has many other movie industries as well . also bollywood doesnt score high on realism . are u trying to say that because it contains songs and dances it reflects indian culture ? but songs and dances are thousands of years old .

also for the first 3000 years of the last 5000 years india was primarily hindu ( still is ) . u dont think that by eliminating hinduism , all these wondeful traditions and practises will be lost or is that not important to u ?

arunma said:

I think Satay's position can be summed up by "don't do anything that will cause Hindus to convert to Christianity."

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Thanks for being my spokesperson once again but as usual you are wrong. I would like to address your foolish comment but I don't want to take the thread away on a tangent again. Perhaps you can start a new thread with the title: "Satay's position and what I think of it" or something along those lines.

satay

Montalban said:

So far you're attacking Christianity, then 'institutionalised Christianity' based on a verse about witches; which Jesus didn't adhere to (Jesus you may recall was that fella who talked about loving everyone). Then taking that verse you have Cortez attacking the New World based on the supposition that there's a link between this and the Inquisition, founded as it was by the Pope claiming it on his own authority. Well done.

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No this is what you've deliberately chosen to take away from my argument. I'm sorry that those who represent Christianity have committed atrocites since the time of it's inception, and I'm equally sorry they can justify it with scripture, and have done so. If you think the pope was the only one responsible for the Inquisition and it's interpretation of scripture..well then I'm sorry you're that thick, but that was the mindset of the marjority of the Christian world at that point. And for someone who has actually read up on Cortes, which I doubt you have, it's pretty easy to see his motivation wasn't fortune and glory, that's someone else's opinion on the matter. But then again, you don't see a connection between him leaving Inquisitorial Spain, and coming away with a mindset very akin to theirs, so I guess you could have missed his religious observances even though they were in everything he did. These are your failings.


A conversation between Hernando Cortes and Xicotenga, a Tlascalan cacique illustrates the mentality perfectly:

Cortes replied that he wished first to do the will of our lord God, in whom we believe and whom we worship, and to perform the task for which our lord and King had sent us; which was to make hem give up their idols and cease to kill and sacrifice human beings, also cease the other abominations which they practiced, and believe as we believed in the one true God… He then went on to state that if they wished to be our brothers and live on terms of true friendship with us, and if they really wanted us to take their daughters for our wives, as they proposed, they must immediately give up their wicked idols and accept and worship Our Lord God, as we did… But if they went on making their customary sacrifices to their idols, which were devils, they would be taken to hell, where they would burn for ever in living flames.

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Spanish monarchs required every captain of an expedition to the new world to read a proclamation to any natives that they encountered upon disembarking from their ships. A portion of this proclamation is reproduced below, and offers further evidence to this 'divine' mission:

I, N. N., servant of the high and mighty kings of Castile and Leon, the conquerors of the barbarian peoples, being their messenger and captain, notify and inform you: That God, our Lord, One and Eternal, created the heaven and the earth, and a man and woman, from whom you and we all the people who shall come after us. But because of the multitude thus begotten out of them in the past five thousand and more years since the world was created, it was necessary that some should go to one place and others to another, ,and divide into many kingdoms and provinces, since in one alone they could not sustain themselves. All these people God gave in charge to one who was called St. Peter, that he might be lord and superior of all the people of the world, that all should obey him and he should be the head of the entire human lineage, wherever men might be and live, and under whatever law, sect or belief, giving to him the entire world for his service and jurisdiction. And since he commanded him to fix his seat in Rome, as the place best fitted to rule the world, he also promised him that he might be and establish his seat in any other part of the world, and judge and govern all nations, Christians, Moors, Jews, Gentiles and of whatever other sect or belief they might be. Him named Papa, Father and Ruler of all men. This St. Peter was obeyed and held as Lord, King and Superior of the Universe by those who lived at that time, and so it has been with all those who since then have been chosen to the pontificate, and so it has continued until today, and will continue until the world shall end. One of the previous pontiffs, whom I have spoken of as Lord of the world, made donation of these islands and mainlands of the ocean, to the Catholic kings of Castile… So that his Majesty is king and lord of these islands and mainlands, by virtue of the said donation.

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Mayan accounts attest to the religious nature of the campaigns the Spaniards waged in the Yucatan, as this Chontal Mayan account from Acalan-Tixchel shows:

Then they [the Spaniards] went to Yucatan to conquer its lands… The Castilian men came with the padres to conquer the land; they came to bring the truly true god [u to u tohal chu] and his word. They taught the people that already our gods were destroyed and the day had already come when their worship would be ended: ‘You will never again see them worshipped, and he who does worship them lives a life of deceit; anyone who does worship them will be really punished.’

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Futhermore, formal charges of misconduct in the Yucatan had been leveled against De Landa by the Inquisition and an investigation was made and his activities were officially condoned. He was promoted to Bishop of the region in 1572.

I really didn't want to dig all of that out, and there is certainly a further mountain of evidence to support my claims, but this should be testament enough for the purpose of this discussion. I should think this fills in all the holes or 'links' things nicely.

Here are the sources if you wish to challenge this:

De Landa, Diego. Gates, William trans. Yucatan Before and After the Conquest. New York: Dover Publications, 1937.

Bernal Diaz, Cohen, J. M. trans. The Conquest of New Spain. London: Penguin Group,1963.

Leon-Portilla, Miguel trans. The Broken Spears. Boston: Beacon Press, 1962.

Restall, Matthew trans. Maya Conquistador. Boston: Beacon Press, 1998.

satay said:

Thanks for being my spokesperson once again but as usual you are wrong. I would like to address your foolish comment but I don't want to take the thread away on a tangent again. Perhaps you can start a new thread with the title: "Satay's position and what I think of it" or something along those lines.

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So...you do want us to do things that will cause Hindus to convert to Christianity?

arunma said:

So...you do want us to do things that will cause Hindus to convert to Christianity?

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Off topic, if you want to bait Satay, do it elsewhere.

MortonGneiss said:

Off topic, if you want to bait Satay, do it elsewhere.

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But I think it's very on topic. I think that ultimately, this issue will boil down to the question of whether or not Christian evangelism is acceptable. Of all religions which preach "tolerance," Hinduism and Judaism are the most opposed to religious conversion, so I think that Satay's answer is extremely relevant.

MortonGneiss said:

Here are the sources if you wish to challenge this:

De Landa, Diego. Gates, William trans. Yucatan Before and After the Conquest. New York: Dover Publications, 1937.

Bernal Diaz, Cohen, J. M. trans. The Conquest of New Spain. London: Penguin Group,1963.

Leon-Portilla, Miguel trans. The Broken Spears. Boston: Beacon Press, 1962.

Restall, Matthew trans. Maya Conquistador. Boston: Beacon Press, 1998.

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Enough of me discussing the issue with you; you evidence proof you've not read my posts; as I've already said I've read Diaz... which I doubt you've read, but you call upon me to read - even though I've already said that I have.

MortonGneiss said:

I've already said that. But doesn't that show us that the Bible can be used to that end? Isn't that a perfect illustration of what interpretations of the bible can lead to? Belief leads to action, my friend. And the Bible opens the door to 'that' kind of belief.

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A lot of books can be used to promote war, not necessarily religious either. It probably makes people feel better if they think they're doing it for religious purposes, Tale of two citiies comes to mind.

arunma said:

But I think it's very on topic. I think that ultimately, this issue will boil down to the question of whether or not Christian evangelism is acceptable. Of all religions which preach "tolerance," Hinduism and Judaism are the most opposed to religious conversion, so I think that Satay's answer is extremely relevant.

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The only part of this that's on topic is you illustrating your belief that those people 'need' conversion, because of the baseless assumption that your cult has a license on God and are the only providers of tickets into heaven.

You've already made that point clear enough. We understand that you believe Baptist Brand X is superior to all other forms of worship, there's no need to keep bringing it up.

Montalban said:

Enough of me discussing the issue with you; you evidence proof you've not read my posts; as I've already said I've read Diaz... which I doubt you've read, but you call upon me to read - even though I've already said that I have.

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So I'll take it that you have no further grounds to contest that Christianity is directly responsible for the Inquisition and the conduct of the Spanish Conquistadors in the new world. That's good, because you didn't really have a leg to stand on. I was willing to concede that Diaz may have overlooked that part of the account, which is why I cited a few of the relevant passages from sources I have on hand for your consideration. I gave you the sources in case for whatever reason you felt they were spurious and wished confirm their authenticity.

urnotme said:

A lot of books can be used to promote war, not necessarily religious either. It probably makes people feel better if they think they're doing it for religious purposes, Tale of two citiies comes to mind.

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Which book out of all them can be linked to the most human suffering, and actually contains a prescription for causing it? If you guessed the Bible, you win a cookie.

The fact that it is a religious text makes it a hundred fold more dangerous. It's much easier to dismiss the political propoganda of a corrupt government, or victorian literature, than it is to dismiss something viewed as the word of God. It's just odd they don't critically examine the kind of mindnumbing shash their God says throughout that book.

urnotme said:

A lot of books can be used to promote war, not necessarily religious either. It probably makes people feel better if they think they're doing it for religious purposes, Tale of two citiies comes to mind.

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Indeed they can. The problem with MortonGneiss is he's arguing about the evils done by "Christianity" yet conceeds that the sources had been misused.

Then he switches to attacks on "Christians" which is more accurate, because Christianity is not at fault for the misdeeds of Christians.

Which is, unlike Islam.

arunma said:

So...you do want us to do things that will cause Hindus to convert to Christianity?

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Obviously, you didn't read my post properly. Read it again; this time sloooowly.

By the way, if you don't remember I have asked you at least 3 times to do things that will "convert" me. I am a Hindu.

Here is another open invitation to you or any Maleccha that acts likes a used car salesman: Convert me, Sell me your "car".

But open another thread okay. I don't want you to run away from this thread bickering about the evils of Hinduism while your Maleccha organization is under attack and you can't seem to provide any answers.

satay

MortonGneiss said:

Off topic, if you want to bait Satay, do it elsewhere.

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No he doesn't have to bait me. I have already asked him and other Malecchas to convert me to their organization. No one even wants to try. Since he can't answer your questions he just wants to take the focus elsewhere. Nothing new, this is what Malecchas do when they get asked tough questions. They run, hide or end with : I will pray for you.

I pray for the Malecchas and animals alll the time.

satay