Ethics of Proselytization

[bèlla]

Scripturally, churches are the lone way of getting things done, and I don't see that they were wrong.

And, yes, Graham was commissioned by and held accountable to his home congregation.

Why would I seek a church’s permission to launch a business or a platform with speaking gigs? Why would I look to them to create a charity and fund it with my own means? I can understand the reason if you’re desirous of support or they’re providing financial resources. But they don’t have the manpower to scrutinize everyone. Never mind the 501c3 which I don’t agree with nor do I like the donor model. But to each his own.

~bella

 

[RDKirk]

Why would I seek a church’s permission to launch a business or a platform with speaking gigs? Why would I look to them to create a charity and fund it with my own means? I can understand the reason if you’re desirous of support or they’re providing financial resources. But they don’t have the manpower to scrutinize everyone. Never mind the 501c3 which I don’t agree with nor do I like the donor model. But to each his own.

~bella

We're talking specifically about evangelism and other church missions. Do you see that as merely a business?

 

[bèlla]

We're talking specifically about evangelism and other church missions. Do you see that as merely a business?

No I don’t and the Lord provides gifts of leadership and administration for a reason. Doing a work for the Him doesn‘t preclude business practices that make the organization sound and financially healthy. And if you don’t know how to do that you’re meant to have someone on the team who can. It‘s hard to run an organization relying on donations and the unexpected is a certainty.

When you understand human nature you know a person will drop a $1,000 for a phone but wouldn’t write a check for the same. That’s not a slight against the church but there’s a correlation with the value we attach to goods and services. People will afford what they want if they believe they’re getting something in return.

When you take the devil’s tools off the table it allows you to stretch yourself and think outside of the box. But when you’re relying on tax breaks, loans and donations you won’t do the same. Nor are the downloads as plentiful because you have a safety net. I don’t want to be beholden and the bible warns us about the lender and borrower. I don’t make the rules and the one who did can change them and I won’t have his foot on my neck.

If you let the Lord build the house He’ll tell you how to fund it righteously. You don’t have to look to the world or rely on an anonymous donor. There’s a dignity that comes forth when you can say like Abraham “that I would not take anything that is yours, from a thread to a sandal strap, so you could not say, ‘I [the King of Sodom] have made Abram rich.”

Not a business loan, mortgage or car note. If He wants me to do it He has to provide.

~bella

 

[RDKirk]

No I don’t and the Lord provides gifts of leadership and administration for a reason. Doing a work for the Him doesn‘t preclude business practices that make the organization sound and financially healthy. And if you don’t know how to do that you’re meant to have someone on the team who can. It‘s hard to run an organization relying on donations and the unexpected is a certainty.

When you understand human nature you know a person will drop a $1,000 for a phone but wouldn’t write a check for the same. That’s not a slight against the church but there’s a correlation with the value we attach to goods and services. People will afford what they want if they believe they’re getting something in return.

When you take the devil’s tools off the table it allows you to stretch yourself and think outside of the box. But when you’re relying on tax breaks, loans and donations you won’t do the same. Nor are the downloads as plentiful because you have a safety net. I don’t want to be beholden and the bible warns us about the lender and borrower. I don’t make the rules and the one who did can change them and I won’t have his foot on my neck.

If you let the Lord build the house He’ll tell you how to fund it righteously. You don’t have to look to the world or rely on an anonymous donor. There’s a dignity that comes forth when you can say like Abraham “that I would not take anything that is yours, from a thread to a sandal strap, so you could not say, ‘I [the King of Sodom] have made Abram rich.”

Not a business loan, mortgage or car note. If He wants me to do it He has to provide.

~bella

Once again, you're trying to divert the discussion. We're talking about the Church mission being done under Church auspices rather than by lone wolves doing their own things without accountability.

 

[bèlla]

Once again, you're trying to divert the discussion. We're talking about the Church mission being done under Church auspices rather than by lone wolves doing their own things without accountability.

I’m not trying to divert the discussion and the rest isn‘t worth debating.

~bella

 

[ViaCrucis]

For what it's worth, there is a small update. During a small exchange I was asked if I was a Christian, which I affirmed. When asked what sort of church I attended I answered honestly, Lutheran.

I do believe she means well, so for those whose focus was on the details of my story (though I want to emphasize that my intent, originally, was not to focus on the details of my anecdote, but address a larger picture). Though there was some discomfort when she was trying to push a book from her church's tradition (Apostolic) about spiritual warfare. I didn't believe it appropriate, while on the clock, to engage in theological debate; so it was largely an uncomfortable situation. But, I do want to be clear: I do believe her intent is sincere. Though I also believe that if I offered my own frank opinion, she would be offended--which I did not share.

In the same way that my original intent was not to hyper-focus my personal experience; but rather discuss a more general subject. I also don't want this to become a theological quibble. I am more than happy to engage in debates and conversations on the subject of "spiritual warfare" on more appropriate boards here on CF.

But, for whatever it's worth, I want to bring closure to the fact that I do think she means well.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Fervent]

For what it's worth, there is a small update. During a small exchange I was asked if I was a Christian, which I affirmed. When asked what sort of church I attended I answered honestly, Lutheran.

I do believe she means well, so for those whose focus was on the details of my story (though I want to emphasize that my intent, originally, was not to focus on the details of my anecdote, but address a larger picture). Though there was some discomfort when she was trying to push a book from her church's tradition (Apostolic) about spiritual warfare. I didn't believe it appropriate, while on the clock, to engage in theological debate; so it was largely an uncomfortable situation. But, I do want to be clear: I do believe her intent is sincere. Though I also believe that if I offered my own frank opinion, she would be offended--which I did not share.

In the same way that my original intent was not to hyper-focus my personal experience; but rather discuss a more general subject. I also don't want this to become a theological quibble. I am more than happy to engage in debates and conversations on the subject of "spiritual warfare" on more appropriate boards here on CF.

But, for whatever it's worth, I want to bring closure to the fact that I do think she means well.

-CryptoLutheran

I don't think sincerity alone mediates the more problematic issues that come with the hyper-focus on evangelism that so often passes for being missional. It is far too common for well-meaning people to engage in dehumanizing high pressure sales tactics in the name of evangelism, and there's a lot floating around there that rarely gets discussed or reflected upon. You raise an important topic, which ultimately boils down to whether or not we'd want to be subjected to sales tactics that focus more on getting to "yes" than on natural relationship building and following the Spirit's lead on when and where to make a proclamation of the gospel message.

I say this not to denigrate street evangelism, because God works through it all, but to point out that we must look and act like Christ if we are to be effective witnesses. We must pay attention not only to the pathos and logos of our message, but also to the ethos.

 

[RDKirk]

I don't think sincerity alone mediates the more problematic issues that come with the hyper-focus on evangelism that so often passes for being missional. It is far too common for well-meaning people to engage in dehumanizing high pressure sales tactics in the name of evangelism, and there's a lot floating around there that rarely gets discussed or reflected upon. You raise an important topic, which ultimately boils down to whether or not we'd want to be subjected to sales tactics that focus more on getting to "yes" than on natural relationship building and following the Spirit's lead on when and where to make a proclamation of the gospel message.

I say this not to denigrate street evangelism, because God works through it all, but to point out that we must look and act like Christ if we are to be effective witnesses. We must pay attention not only to the pathos and logos of our message, but also to the ethos.

People who are spiritually gifted for evangelism do not have to rely on high-pressure sales tactics.

 

[FireDragon76]

What would you have preferred them to do? How do you see the charge to evangelize?

Aversion to proselytism seems to be a secular and rather anti-religious dogma. The reason someone within a secular culture would be averse is because they would be taught by secularism that proselytism involves insincerity and an objectification of persons. But anyone who is a Christian believes in evangelization and arguably proselytism, and there is no reason to believe that evangelization must be insincere or involve objectification. Many would take it as a compliment that someone cares enough about them to broach a subject they deem serious. That someone cares enough about you and the faith to take it all seriously.

(I am presuming that this person does not know that you are a Protestant Christian, and maybe that's part of the difficulty here.)

Evangelization and proselytism are two separate things.

Your own church has made a good definition of proselytism, and why it's problematic.

Most of these churches that push their members to engage in proselytism are heavily shaped by voluntarist and consumerist assumptions about the nature of faith and religion.

 

[RDKirk]

Evangelization and proselytism are two separate things.

Not in scripture.

 

[Jermayn]

I could have put this in a Christians-only section, but I wanted this open to non-Christians.

Somewhat recently I had an experience at my work; for context I work at a popular retail warehouse store, I don't work for them but I do work in that warehouse, along with vendors of other companies who operate in the same space. A lot of people from different companies all operate within the same space, and naturally we interact with one another on a regular basis. As such I've built up friendly relationships with a lot of people who I interact with regularly.

Over several months I have interacted with a certain individual, it's always casual always friendly, but they work for a different company than I do. However several weeks ago this individual gave me a card, it had a pretty picture of sunflowers on it, and I didn't think much of it, I smiled, thanked them, made a comment about needing more sunshine in my life, that sort of thing. I slipped the card away and didn't really take a look at it until after work. Well, it was a Gospel tract disguised as a card.

Receiving religious material isn't the weirdest thing that's happened to me at my job, but usually it's customers leaving things on a cart, or slipped between food items to be found by a random passerby.

But this particular experience gave me pause and a thought: Has this individual's actions and behavior toward me, their demeaner, their friendliness (etc) been part of an attempt at proselytizing. I mean, I'm a Christian and the card/tract was generically Christian enough that I have no idea what denomination they are part of. I wasn't offended obviously, but it led me to wonder to what degree their interactions with me came from sincere comradery, or whether it is a kind of "missionary" tactic.

I may not have thought this except that, growing up in a particular kind of Christian environment, missionary-friendship and missionary-relationships were considered a valid "tactic" at trying to make converts. So that background does mean that I am aware that this is something that exists. It's not part of my current religious practice, but it was in the background I was raised in.

And I guess here's the point: When I thought about this, I felt a kind of betrayal. As though this person had been insincere in their interactions with me, I felt like a target, or an objective--not a person. And again, I wasn't angry, I wasn't particularly offended, but I felt dehumanized--even if just slightly.

As I was thinking about all of this again this evening, I wanted to open up this topic more broadly. Because I have a feeling many people--especially people outside of my religion--know exactly the feelings I felt, and I thought this could be a good topic of discussion. And ideally, a way for Christians like me to learn more, take feedback, and consider the ethics of religious outreach.

A secondary thought I had in all this: In some ways I feel like I would prefer a total stranger leaving a tract or pamphlet than someone who has been regularly interacting with me. There is a sense in which now I question and doubt the sincerity in friendliness of this person that I didn't before. And that's kind of an awful feeling to have. I'm not angry with them, or offended, but I now doubt their authenticity toward me. And I feel like this experience I had might provide me with a slight amount of insight and empathy with those who experience this more regularly.

-CryptoLutheran

Did they stop being friendly after he gave you the tract or is their attitude toward you still the same?

 

[rambot]

Our small group did a great study on this.

When Paul uses the analogy of the human body and how every organ is different and serves a purpose and contributes to the functioning of the body, this is how a church works.

I have gifts for leading worship and I have gifts for compassion. I do not have gifts for discipliship. Some other friends of mine with severe social anxiety also struggle with that.

I always just think we need to be ready and WILLING to have those conversations but I do believe the charge given to the discplies was for THEM.

 

[RDKirk]

Our small group did a great study on this.

When Paul uses the analogy of the human body and how every organ is different and serves a purpose and contributes to the functioning of the body, this is how a church works.

I have gifts for leading worship and I have gifts for compassion. I do not have gifts for discipliship. Some other friends of mine with severe social anxiety also struggle with that.

I always just think we need to be ready and WILLING to have those conversations but I do believe the charge given to the discplies was for THEM.

Or rather, as I've mentioned earlier, for people who are specifically called by the Holy Spirit to be evangelists.

We've got too many people who don't have the gift doing a lot of ham-fisted evangelism. Too many feet trying to be hands.

 

[rambot]

Or rather, as I've mentioned earlier, for people who are specifically called by the Holy Spirit to be evangelists.

We've got too many people who don't have the gift doing a lot of ham-fisted evangelism. Too many feet trying to be hands.

YES! Agreed. As Jesus said, they have received their reward in full. I just think it's too bad because I am 100% positive some of those people are stirring up discontent against Christians and God.

 

[FireDragon76]

Not in scripture.

The only time proselytes are mentioned explicitly in the Scriptures is by Jesus himself, and he does so negatively.

 

[RDKirk]

The only time proselytes are mentioned explicitly in the Scriptures is by Jesus himself, and he does so negatively.

Of of the men selected as a supply steward in the congregation of Jerusalem was explicitly identified as a proselyte.

 

[Chesterton]

@ViaCrucis Some of the men from my church and I used to get together once a week in my priest's neighborhood to play basketball. Not everyone always shows up consistently. Sometimes we're short on players. Local neighborhood guys would sometimes join us. (We're closed communion, but not closed basketball. )

I was going to ask a person in my neighborhood, who I'm pretty sure is not a churchgoer, if he'd ever want to come play with us. But then I thought, when he finds out it's mostly guys from my church, is he going to suspect I'm trying to evangelize him? Would he take that negatively? I thought about it a couple of weeks before I finally asked him. Turns out he's not into basketball and wasn't interested. Just thought I'd share that. I don't want to do anything that would be off-putting to a friend or acquaintance.

 

[rebornfree]

I could have put this in a Christians-only section, but I wanted this open to non-Christians.

Somewhat recently I had an experience at my work; for context I work at a popular retail warehouse store, I don't work for them but I do work in that warehouse, along with vendors of other companies who operate in the same space. A lot of people from different companies all operate within the same space, and naturally we interact with one another on a regular basis. As such I've built up friendly relationships with a lot of people who I interact with regularly.

Over several months I have interacted with a certain individual, it's always casual always friendly, but they work for a different company than I do. However several weeks ago this individual gave me a card, it had a pretty picture of sunflowers on it, and I didn't think much of it, I smiled, thanked them, made a comment about needing more sunshine in my life, that sort of thing. I slipped the card away and didn't really take a look at it until after work. Well, it was a Gospel tract disguised as a card.

Receiving religious material isn't the weirdest thing that's happened to me at my job, but usually it's customers leaving things on a cart, or slipped between food items to be found by a random passerby.

But this particular experience gave me pause and a thought: Has this individual's actions and behavior toward me, their demeaner, their friendliness (etc) been part of an attempt at proselytizing. I mean, I'm a Christian and the card/tract was generically Christian enough that I have no idea what denomination they are part of. I wasn't offended obviously, but it led me to wonder to what degree their interactions with me came from sincere comradery, or whether it is a kind of "missionary" tactic.

I may not have thought this except that, growing up in a particular kind of Christian environment, missionary-friendship and missionary-relationships were considered a valid "tactic" at trying to make converts. So that background does mean that I am aware that this is something that exists. It's not part of my current religious practice, but it was in the background I was raised in.

And I guess here's the point: When I thought about this, I felt a kind of betrayal. As though this person had been insincere in their interactions with me, I felt like a target, or an objective--not a person. And again, I wasn't angry, I wasn't particularly offended, but I felt dehumanized--even if just slightly.

As I was thinking about all of this again this evening, I wanted to open up this topic more broadly. Because I have a feeling many people--especially people outside of my religion--know exactly the feelings I felt, and I thought this could be a good topic of discussion. And ideally, a way for Christians like me to learn more, take feedback, and consider the ethics of religious outreach.

A secondary thought I had in all this: In some ways I feel like I would prefer a total stranger leaving a tract or pamphlet than someone who has been regularly interacting with me. There is a sense in which now I question and doubt the sincerity in friendliness of this person that I didn't before. And that's kind of an awful feeling to have. I'm not angry with them, or offended, but I now doubt their authenticity toward me. And I feel like this experience I had might provide me with a slight amount of insight and empathy with those who experience this more regularly.

-CryptoLutheran

I think it was a strange thing to do, as it interrupted the flow of dialogue between you, by suddenly presenting you with religious material, when there had been no previous discussion about faith. She could have introduced the subject by saying that she had had a good weekend, mention going to church and, depending on your response, asked if you had any religious beliefs. If I was not a Christian I would have found her actions a barrier to communication.

I appreciate that you want to put yourself in a non-believer's position, which is great. I think that they would probably feel.that her friendship had had an ulterior motive. However, as a Christian, I can see that her motives were good, but it was not the best thing to do until there had been some discussion of faith.

I'm not keen on tracts, unless the gospel has already been shared and the person is given one to take away with them. Alternatively a church giving them out to passers-by, with contact details in case of enquiry, may be useful to some, but I prefer personal or ministry based evangelism.

 

[RDKirk]

I appreciate that you want to put yourself in a non-believer's position, which is great. I think that they would probably feel.that her friendship had had an ulterior motive. However, as a Christian, I can see that her motives were good, but it was not the best thing to do until there had been some discussion of faith.

But what if the nonbeliever is this person:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them...."

And just doesn't know it yet.

Can you put yourself into that non-believer's position?

 

[rebornfree]

But what if the nonbeliever is this person:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them...."

And just doesn't know it yet.

Can you put yourself into that non-believer's position?

Well, I think that finding some way to introduce Christianity would be best and then find out what the other person believes. Then he could explain what he believes, in which case giving them a tract to take home would be a good idea. Or alternatively invite them to church. I think it's important though to keep a good relationship (in this case a working one) with the person, whether or not they show an interest in Christianity.