Ethical ?

[4x4toy]

How about economical ? Or moral ?

 

[redleghunter]

How about economical ? Or moral ?

Wow.

 

[St_Worm2]

If you really believe the common teachings of Christian doctrine, especially concerning an "ever suffering in hell" (note: I do not, but for them that do) then having no children would be the right and loving thing to do. A person that has children while believing these doctrines would be doing nothing less than recklessly endangering the very soul of a being with eternal suffering; and for very selfish reasons. Upon accidental pregnancy, abortion would be the loving thing to do, giving the soul the certainty of reaching heaven.

I know the Bible teaches us this: "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth" .. Genesis 1:28 (which is the very first pre-Fall commandment given to all of mankind, BTW, and as such, is still in force today). We are also clearly taught .. "You shall not murder" .. Exodus 20:13, but I don't remember ever reading that the intentional murder of your unborn child guarantees them a place in Heaven, do you

While I do believe that all who God allows to die as children (or as unborn children) go to Heaven, there is no direct teaching concerning that fact in the Bible (is there?), so all we can do is "assume" that such a belief is correct .. right? If you know of something I've missed however, please let me/us know.

This means the one committing the abortion would be sinning, yet if they can be forgiven of that sin, then the child is guaranteed heaven, and the person committing abortion is forgiven. If the person committing the abortion cannot be forgiven, then it is even more loving of them to sacrifice their own life for the sake of assuring their children life in heaven without the very real possibility of ending up in eternal suffering. So if one believes the common Christian doctrines, abortion is the just and loving choice, and having children is selfish and unimaginably cruel. I would argue that if a person believes these doctrines and has had children, they should qualify as being placed behind bars in the same way that we would incarcerate parents forcing their children to walk a tightrope over a vat of acid.

Now, of course, this creates a very bizarre situation, but if one believes such bizarre doctrines, how would this not be the right and loving ethical outcome?

John, I think you might want to go back to the drawing board and re-think all of this!

Yours in Christ,
David

 

[John Hyperspace]

I know the Bible teaches us this: "Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth" .. Genesis 1:28 (which is the very first pre-Fall commandment given to all of mankind, BTW, and as such, is still in force today), and we are also taught .. "You shall not murder" .. Exodus 20:13, but I don't remember ever reading that the intentional murder of your unborn child guarantees them a place in Heaven, do you

Yes, it is simple deduction if you believe a child that dies goes to heaven. If you believe a child that dies goes to hell, then don't have an abortion by any means, or you would be guilty in the contrapositive (i.e. sending the child to hell without possibility of reaching heaven).

While I do believe that all who God allows to die as children (or unborn children) go to Heaven, there is no such direct teaching about it in the Bible (is there), so all we can do is "assume" that such a belief is correct .. right? If you know of something I've missed however, please let me/us know.

The ethics will depend upon your own belief, not mine. If you believe that a child who dies goes to heaven, and believe in an everlasting suffering hell awaiting those who fail in life to "be good"; then the clear option is to abort the child, thereby aborting the possibility of going to hell entirely. But, remember this is in a drastic case of unintended pregnancy. To intentionally bear child is cruelty in the extreme; selfishness and unlovingness without boundary. Bearing children would reasonably be one of the greatest sins imaginable.

John, I think you might want to go back to the drawing board and re-think all of this!

Not at all. Reason dictates that anyone believing "eternal suffering hell" should either, not have children out of love for others; or, go back to the drawing board with the doctrines they've been lead to believe which are causing a very clearly bizarre conflict with reality, love and the scripture itself.

 

[~Anastasia~]

I'm not sure if you are promoting this idea or trying to have a philosophical discussion, John, but I would be careful in what you are saying.

It is never right to kill a child, born or not. One cannot justify the murder of children by saying that they believe they are sending the child to heaven. There was a case in the news some years ago of a parent who did this. We consider such thinking to be a sign of mental illness at best, and criminal at worst.

I would not wish to be misunderstood as condoning such a thing. (And if I'm not misunderstanding you, and you ARE actually condoning it, that is a problem - promotion of abortion is against CF's sitewide rules.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Lord have mercy.

I watched most of the video. I couldn't finish it. Im surprised I made it past the first part because I actually know of someone close to me who has these things done to them.

It's sickening.

And grievous.

Lord have mercy.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Not watching. But

If you really believe the common teachings of Christian doctrine, especially concerning an "ever suffering in hell" (note: I do not, but for them that do) then having no children would be the right and loving thing to do. A person that has children while believing these doctrines would be doing nothing less than recklessly endangering the very soul of a being with eternal suffering; and for very selfish reasons. Upon accidental pregnancy, abortion would be the loving thing to do, giving the soul the certainty of reaching heaven.

This means the one committing the abortion would be sinning, yet if they can be forgiven of that sin, then the child is guaranteed heaven, and the person committing abortion is forgiven. If the person committing the abortion cannot be forgiven, then it is even more loving of them to sacrifice their own life for the sake of assuring their children life in heaven without the very real possibility of ending up in eternal suffering.

So if one believes the common Christian doctrines, abortion is the just and loving choice, and having children is selfish and unimaginably cruel. I would argue that if a person believes these doctrines and has had children, they should qualify as being placed behind bars in the same way that we would incarcerate parents forcing their children to walk a tightrope over a vat of acid.

Now, of course, this creates a very bizarre situation, but if one believes such bizarre doctrines, how would this not be the right and loving ethical outcome?

assuming the OP agrees am not sure where one draws a moral line in granting a mother or father could even wish this for their child.
Ultimately it always comes to a point where one minute one claims it is OK and the very next instant it is murder.
That seems a very subjective distinction. Also rather begs the question of the justification of other murders. We could even expand the justification to address both the victims and perhaps a "greater good" for everyone remaining. That is the problem with suggesting morality is subjective.

And if the subjectivity is being denied, OK then it is simply murder and it is being justified. Which can and is done for many reasons. But justified how in this thread - greater good for the victim and parents, and in another post even greater good as whole (which can expand to population control, ending hunger, poverty). OK fine. But precious few of us claim to know with any certitude that in killing that child we would be sending them to a greater good than if we had not. Without that total assurance the concept we could justify it because we are pretty sure God would cut them a brake becomes abhorrent. A risk we would not sanely take ourselves in acting to end our own lives, yet are willing to participate in ending another life because we think it might be true???

And if the sin of murder were not enough alone, to my mind the OT prescription of death or cutting off for intentionally causing the death of the unborn does not reflect any leeway here for justifying these murders.

So am not sure how to be OK with these ideas.

 

[4x4toy]

I know folks can't waste time looking at every video, I don't .. But the summery in this one is that . Abortion is a crooked, evil, money making industry .. The woman featured is an abortion clinic owner who used telemarketing strategy and other sales technic for one purpose only, "$$$$" .. Acting as councilors they fool young women into being trusting customers , they provide inadequate, cheap birth control that 1. fails to prevent pregnancy and 2. gives the girls false hope of not becoming pregnant, then with their faith in (planned to fail, faulty) birth control they began to have sex anytime ..... These abortion clinics are money mongering ,murdering liars who have found an easy way to make a buck and process young girls . They get the girls to trust them , act like there closest friend then guide them to ruin like only a deceiving devil can .. Abortion, murder incorporated ..
A person may or may not have a valid POV , but added information to that POV is what changes minds ..

 

[quatona]

I know folks can't waste time looking at every video, I don't .. But the summery in this one is that . Abortion is a crooked, evil, money making industry .. The woman featured is an abortion clinic owner who used telemarketing strategy and other sales technic for one purpose only, "$$$$" .. Acting as councilors they fool young women into being trusting customers , they provide inadequate, cheap birth control that 1. fails to prevent pregnancy and 2. gives the girls false hope of not becoming pregnant, then with their faith in (planned to fail, faulty) birth control they began to have sex anytime ..... These abortion clinics are money mongering ,murdering liars who have found an easy way to make a buck and process young girls . They get the girls to trust them , act like there closest friend then guide them to ruin like only a deceiving devil can .. Abortion, murder incorporated ..
A person may or may not have a valid POV , but added information to that POV is what changes minds ..

Now, do you want me to agree with you on that these practices are unethical (I agree), or do you want to make a point against abortion (in which latter case I don´t seem to get the logic)?

 

[4x4toy]

Now, do you want me to agree with you on that these practices are unethical (I agree), or do you want to make a point against abortion (in which latter case I don´t seem to get the logic)?

Both ..

 

[quatona]

Both ..

Well, as I said, I fail to see the logic in using these example as a case for the latter.
You many want to explain?