Eternal vs conditional security, or OSAS vs LOS

[Born Again2004]

Do you believe you will be saved if you start to persistently disobey the teachings of Jesus without repenting?

Why should I...I am a "Born Again" Christian with Jesus inside me and I am already saved?
Aren't you?

 

[Thursday]

Why should I...I am a "Born Again" Christian with Jesus inside me and I am already saved?
Aren't you?

You shouldn't, but nothing will stop you from sinning if that is what you desire and you will it to happen.

You have the choice.

Jesus said we must pick up our cross daily and follow him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Maybe we agree to this but, much is lost in translation. It appears to me that you are comparing Apples to Oranges. I am talking about believers..... you are talking about the bulk of the Pharisees and Sadducees of the day which where controlled by Satan and where non-believers. They were supposed to be experts in the Torah and should have know who Jesus was...but they denied scriptures as well!

I did understand that you were referring to believers, but the comparison is still valid; that one can be presented with truth and still deny it. Whether the saving gospel message, or doctrines taught in the Scriptures.

 

[StanJ]

Sure, you have a right to your opinion and the verses that you think supports your forever notion that before you die or perhaps changed in the blink of an eye, you have to hold on or perform in some righteous way...again and again...to prevent a "falling away"! I also have the right to mine, in which, I have my own scriptures, I consider myself more of a "Heart Christian" than a "Head Christian", that I somehow believe inside that God is greater and makes no mistakes. He also told Paul that his grace was sufficient and refused to remove the thorn from his side''....His grace is perfect, sufficient and it is his work through us; not our work. If it were a matter of our continued work and falling away or not, we all would fall away...but God did, what only he could do to defeat Satan and death, he devised a perfect plan and took us completely out of the equation!

Sadly that sounds like a very sectarian / human point of view, not one subscribed to within biblical texts. If you insist on sticking to your Dogma despite repeated evidence to the contrary then that just makes you human and sadly a human who is inculcated, not Free in Christ.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You shouldn't, but nothing will stop you from sinning if that is what you desire and you will it to happen.

You have the choice.

Jesus said we must pick up our cross daily and follow him.

To be clear, what He said that you've quoted wasn't in reference to either getting saved or maintaining one's salvation.

 

[Born Again2004]

You shouldn't, but nothing will stop you from sinning if that is what you desire and you will it to happen.

You have the choice.

Jesus said we must pick up our cross daily and follow him.

Not that I don't sin but I won't willfully sin because I have no desire to willfully sin.
That is the whole point...I choose not to!
Let me ask you again....do you have a desire to willfully sin?....Will you ever chose to?

 

[Born Again2004]

Sadly that sounds like a very sectarian / human point of view, not one subscribed to within biblical texts. If you insist on sticking to your Dogma despite repeated evidence to the contrary then that just makes you human and sadly a human who is inculcated, not Free in Christ.

How in God's creation can I believe in blessed assurance for what God / Jesus has done for me and you call it not free in Christ. But, you can fall away to the Devil and YOU are free in Christ....Wow!!!...that is a new twist I have never heard before!

 

[Born Again2004]

I did understand that you were referring to believers, but the comparison is still valid; that one can be presented with truth and still deny it. Whether the saving gospel message, or doctrines taught in the Scriptures.

You still didn't get my point: being presented with the truth, and knowing the Torah by heart and the Pharisee still did not believe is the exact opposite of the Apostles and no way the same!

 

[StanJ]

I assure you that they are the same thing.

And I can assure everyone else reading this that you are wrong.

The problem is understand what God said. What He said means security for the believer, regardless of circumstances.

I have no problem understanding what the word of God says, my problem is those who assert it says what it doesn't. I have no problem with God being true to his word, but I do have a problem with people who impose a certain attribute or position on God that is not something he himself has said is true.

Please address just point 5 of the OP; the passage on 1 Thess 5, which I exegeted. And point out from each verse where my exegesis is wrong.

OK
1Thess 5:1-11 (as context is paramount) BTW that's point four just to be clear.
Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.
What is clear here is that Paul is writing to the Thessalonians whom he knew where saved and reminding them about the day of the Lord which means the day Jesus would return. He even says that it's not something that he needs to be telling them about because they are well aware. What he's doing is giving them confidence and that he knows that they are prepared for that day even though it may not come until after they die. Now his confidence does not mean that all of those people he was addressing this letter to will rise when Jesus returns but only that based on their condition at that time they would. It's basically called exhortation, and has nothing to do with eternal security despite your attempt to make it say so.
You did not exegete anything here, you simply repeated them with your preconceptions. Paul is stating facts here not precedents. He is encouraging the Thessalonians based on what he knows of them and of himself. What has been relayed to him by Jesus. This is not to say that there are not things in this section of scripture that we cannot assimilate into our own lives as all of God's word is useful to us, but it is not directed at us in the 21st century and it's definitely not teaching anything about eternal security. What is applicable for all Christians in this chapter of Thessalonians is what Paul rights about in verses 12-22. In fact if you had actually read the whole book of 1st Thessalonians in context you would have seen that in chapter 3 v5, Paul writes; For this reason, when I could stand it no longer, I sent to find out about your faith. I was afraid that in some way the tempter had tempted you and that our labors might have been in vain.
Do you honestly believe that Paul would have written these words if he believed in or was confirming anywhere that eternal security was factual?

 

[StanJ]

How in God's creation can I believe in blessed assurance for what God / Jesus has done for me and you call it not free in Christ. But, you can fall away to the Devil and YOU are free in Christ....Wow!!!...that is a new twist I have never heard before!

So you're changing your tune now? You have faith and assurance in God and don't require eternal security? Sorry, I must have missed that somewhere along the way here.

 

[StanJ]

Why should I...I am a "Born Again" Christian with Jesus inside me and I am already saved?
Aren't you?

That would be avoidance and deflection with a capital A and D.

 

[Born Again2004]

So you're changing your tune now? You have faith and assurance in God and don't require eternal security? Sorry, I must have missed that somewhere along the way here.

Yes, you sure did.....NO, because I have faith in God/Jesus I have assurance and eternal security because of his work...so, unless I missed something , I believe in Grace alone, you, on the other hand, believe in your own works to secure your salvation to the end!

 

[Born Again2004]

That would be avoidance and deflection with a capital A and D.

Huh?....Me saying "I am a "Born Again" Christian with Jesus inside me and I am already saved" is avoidance and deflection. Jesus said he was the way and the truth and he said he would never lose me......what Jesus do you believe in?

 

[StanJ]

Yes, you sure did.....NO, because I have faith in God/Jesus I have assurance and eternal security because of his work...so, unless I missed something , I believe in Grace alone, you, on the other hand, believe in your own works to secure your salvation to the end!

Well now you're bringing in another petal of your T.U.L.I.P. Doctrine which has nothing to do with this issue. I do wish you'd stay on topic and be clear about what you're actually saying. You obviously don't except the assurance that Jesus gives you if you require that he also give you some kind of guarantee against your own apostasy.

 

[StanJ]

Huh?....Me saying "I am a "Born Again" Christian with Jesus inside me and I am already saved" is avoidance and deflection. Jesus said he was the way and the truth and he said he would never lose me......what Jesus do you believe in?

You know exactly what I was referring to so please stop with these games. You were asked a specific question and you deflected and did not answer it.

 

[StanJ]

Not that I don't sin but I won't willfully sin because I have no desire to willfully sin.
That is the whole point...I choose not to!
Let me ask you again....do you have a desire to willfully sin?....Will you ever chose to?

Everybody chooses to sin. There is no such thing as 'the devil made me do it'.

 

[Born Again2004]

You obviously don't except the assurance that Jesus gives you if you require that he also give you some kind of guarantee against your own apostasy.

Love the Tulip analogy but head knowledge won't get it done. Now your getting it....his assurance to me would be a guarantee against apostasy.....in fact, unlike you, the thought of apostasy never enters my mind until someone, as yourself, brings it up! Also, that is absurd that you intimate that humble ole me would require anything of God!...He is God...He gives freely... and I receive and not in my wildest moment would I require him anything, that is crazy!

 

[Born Again2004]

You know exactly what I was referring to so please stop with these games. You were asked a specific question and you deflected and did not answer it.

I never play games! Oh, please ask again! Have no idea what you are referring to!

 

[StanJ]

Love the Tulip analogy but head knowledge won't get it done. Now your getting it....his assurance to me would be a guarantee against apostasy.....in fact, unlike you, the thought of apostasy never enters my mind until someone, as yourself, brings it up!

You can equivocate until the cows come home but assurance does not mean guarantee or security. Sadly it will be the ones and always has been the ones who think they're not susceptible to apostasy that fall into it. Being aware of the pitfalls in our walk is exactly what the New Testament is all about and why it speaks so heavily against all those issues. There is no reason to warn us against potential problems when they aren't problems so the fact that you ignore the warnings and stick to your ignorance is bliss routine only shows why so many people like you fall into apostasy.

Here are 37 Bible verses that warned about apostasy. You will either Heed These Warnings or ignore them, the choice is yours
http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Warnings-Against-Apostasy

 

[Born Again2004]

What was that?