Eternal vs conditional security, or OSAS vs LOS

[StanJ]

I never play games! Oh, please ask again! Have no idea what you are referring to!

I guess that explains why you are not able to properly exegete anything... You don't understand it.

 

[Born Again2004]

I guess that explains why you are not able to properly exegete anything... You don't understand it.

A typical response from one who would argue against salvation by grace alone...the only thing you have in the end is nonsensical innuendos and like statements.
I tell you what OLE Stan, it is obvious that you believe in works and I don't, I believe in Grace Alone... So, I exegete huh? Well, I believe Jesus is Lord and Savior and I believe it is ALL of him and none of me! So we will just have to agree to disagree and move on...I will give you the last word, take your best shot.

 

[StanJ]

A typical response from one who would argue against salvation by grace alone...the only thing you have in the end is nonsensical innuendos and like statements.
I tell you what OLE Stan, it is obvious that you believe in works and I don't, I believe in Grace Alone... So, I exegete huh? Well, I believe Jesus is Lord and Savior and I believe it is ALL of him and none of me! So we will just have to agree to disagree and move on...I will give you the last word, take your best shot.

Actually I don't argue against salvation by grace through faith. I acknowledge what Paul teaches in Ephesians 2:8-10.
What I don't do is equivocate or misrepresent what others say or what the scriptures say. If you can't understand my plain English vernacular then I suggest the problem is either in your comprehension skills or you're being deliberately obtuse?
I said you don't exegete, at all. FYI, Jesus has the last word.

 

[Born Again2004]

Actually I don't argue against salvation by grace through faith. I acknowledge what Paul teaches in Ephesians 2:8-10.

There you go again, can't be truthful, you must twist my words....I said" you argue salvation by grace alone" instead of your salvation by grace through faith in a most famous passage and of course true. You subtlety avoid my statement: I say by grace ALONE and you do not, you can only cling to salvation by your works as well....you ignore the second part of you quoted verse.....not of your works.....that means by grace alone, which you do not believe in!
But, I do apologize, I did say you had the last word on this subject....I'm respectfully done!

 

[StanJ]

There you go again, can't be truthful, you must twist my words....I said" you argue salvation by grace alone" instead of your salvation by grace through faith in a most famous passage and of course true. You subtlety avoid my statement: I say by grace ALONE and you do not, you can only cling to salvation by your works as well....you ignore the second part of you quoted verse.....not of your works.....that means by grace alone, which you do not believe in!
But, I do apologize, I did say you had the last word on this subject....I'm respectfully done!

You're the one twisting your own words and mine. I've never argued that one is saved by grace alone so I'm not sure where you would get that, unless you're deliberately trying to misrepresent or equivocate about what I have said? Why would you misquote scripture or misquote me?
I have never claimed 'salvation by works', but again you're the one that's falsely asserting something I've never claimed. Either you have a really bad habit of deliberately misrepresented people or you have a really bad problem in comprehending what people say because of your inculcation into your Dogma. Ephesians 2:8-10 clearly shows that salvation is not by grace alone but by grace through faith, so you're doing exactly what you accuse me of doing which is quite sad given you're the one protesting. If you continually misrepresent what the word of God says, you're going to lose any credibility whatsoever on this or any other thread. I find it disingenuous for you to claim being respectful now when you haven't been at all, as far as I'm concerned, but in any event it doesn't really concern me, as I'm not the one with the thin skin.

 

[samir]

I said this:
"The Bible never says or even suggests that justification is based on continuing in anything. If so, what verse says that?"

Maybe you're unaware of just how much of a dodge that really is. In fact, there aren't any, or if there were, it would have been quite easy to find at least one of them. So your claim has been proven wrong by failing to provide any verses.


More disingenuous claims. Again, your unsubstantiated claim is proven wrong by failure to provide even one of them.

If you think not providing evidence proves one's claim is wrong then I suggest an intro to logic course.

And just so you know, I read through the entire NT monthly. So I know well what it says.

Wow. Your posts made it sound like you never read the NT in its entirety. Perhaps the problem is you read too quickly. You need to read with understanding. Slow down, set your traditions aside, humble yourself, and try to learn what it teaches. Don't be afraid to read how the early Christians interpreted scripture. They are the experts who were taught by the apostles' themselves. They also gave you the Bible you have today. If they lacked understanding of grace (one of the basic teachings of Christianity) then I wouldn't rely on them to tell me which books are scripture.

More importantly is the FACT that the Bible never says or even suggests that justification can be lost. If it could, why are there no verses that make that claim?

There are probably well over 100 verses that teach it. I can't help it if you choose to ignore them.

As a noun, of course it is supernatural. As a verb, it is not.

Faith isn't a verb in any dictionary I've ever consulted.

Sure I did. I pointed out that those passages are in parallel with Eph 5, which says such lifestyle common to ALL 3 passages results in NOT HAVING an inheritance IN the kingdom. iow, they will get in, but they will NOT HAVE an inheritance.

2 of the 3 parallel passages say will not inherit the kingdom at all. Why do you ignore them in favor of Eph 5 which says won't have any inheritance (none at all) in the kingdom?

But those unfamiliar with the doctrine of eternal rewards will not understand any of this.

I'm well aware believers will receive other rewards in addition to heaven.

All passages are good. Which brings up the whole point of the OP: what are all those verses good for, if they don't teach eternal security?

Already explained it.

But, back to Jn 15. Jesus' point was service to Him. The farming metaphor is about service. Branches that don't produce are not used for service. It's that simple. The verse cannot be about loss of salvation because of the verses where Jesus promises that those who believe HAVE eternal life, and those who have eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

Jn 15 doesn't merely say they won't be used for service. It clearly says they will be cast out, thrown into the fire, and burned. That other passage you mention in John cannot be about eternal security because Jn 15 says those believers will be cast out and burned in the fire.

n fact, Paul refutes such an idea by describing eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23 and then saying that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

I agree 100% that God's gifts are irrevocable but that has absolutely nothing to do with believers rejecting the gifts God gave them.

No, it doesn't. Again, it's about service and when the Jews didn't believe in their Messiah, they were cut off from God's service. Recall that the nation of Israel was chosen to serve.

Anyone else agree with your interpretation? The early Christians who were taught by the apostles don't agree with you so you must have a really good reason to think you understand better than the fathers. What are your credentials?

What do you mean by "early Christians"? Initially you noted ECF, which are those who came AFTER the writers of Scripture. The last book of the NT is Revelation, written somewhere between 85-96 AD. So writers AFTER the Bible was finished would ALL be considered second century.

By early Christians I mean the Christians who lived during the first 3 centuries after Christ. There were Christians in the first century other than the apostles. Clement wrote his epistle in the first century.

And I have already pointed out that what the ECFs wrote are commentaries. They are not inspired writings.

Neither are your interpretations. If you think the leaders of the churches founded by the apostles didn't understand Christianity as well as you do then you are either an extremely arrogant person or you must have some amazing credentials. What makes you think you understand Christianity better than those instructed by the apostles?

I personally don't care what those in the 2nd century thought. I care very much what the writers of Scripture wrote. Do you see the difference?

What is written in scripture is NOT the issue. The issue is the correct interpretation of scripture. All those Christians in the 2nd century believed what scripture wrote. They just didn't agree with your interpretation of it. Since you think you're better than all of them, what are your credentials?

 

[bling]

It won't make any sense to any who have not been taught about the doctrine of eternal reward, which seems to be fairly common.

I have been “taught” about “the doctrine of eternal reward”, but I have not committed myself to the doctrine beyond all reason.

When the truth in scripture goes against my understanding I change my understanding and do not force the scripture to say what it does not say.

It's a mistake to equate harvest with eternal life.

Paul equates the harvest with eternal life, so did Paul make a mistake in scripture? Paul specifically says in Gal. 6: 8-9 “whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. Everyone understands you “reap a harvest” and your harvest is what you reap and you sow a little with God’s involvement you reap a lot “eternal life”?

To have a harvest, one must WORK FOR IT. You know, plant, water, grow, prune, etc, and finally, collect the harvest. If eternal life is a harvest, then salvation is by works. I totally reject that idea. We are saved by grace, which those of the LOS side seem not to understand.

With gran (and that is what this would be referring to since you are sowing it) the watering is done by God, you do not prune it, nor do you need to weed it, if you sow only good grain.

Paul is not talking about the whole farming process, but just the sowing and reaping of the harvest. As we all go through life we are automatically sowing something good or bad (there are no non-sowers in Paul’s description), the quantity of what we sow is not addressed nor the effort is being addressed, the good grain is from God and will automatically spring forth producing an abundant crop.

Which is the whole point of being a reward. Rewards are earned. Gifts are not.

The harvest is a purely charitable gift since you are automatically sowing something as you go through life.

Either. Paul even made comment on motivation:
1 Cor 9:17 - For if I do this voluntarily, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have a stewardship entrusted to me

Point being; if one wants to be rewarded, they are going to have to earn it. But those who aren't interested, won't have an inheritance in the kingdom. They will be there, but they will not have any inheritance there.

Paul tells us specifically what his “reward” is 1 Cor. 9: 18 What then is my reward? Just this: that in preaching the gospel I may offer it free of charge, and so not make full use of my rights as a preacher of the gospel.

Paul held back his monetary reward (payment) for preaching to the Corinthians, so he would not be accused of preaching the Gospel just for the money. His “reward” was in their becoming believers.

What more could God give me that He has not already given me, other than a home in heaven?

Your idea of heaven is not my idea, I do not see degrees of rewards in heaven, but do see differences in punishments being expressed. Do Parents not equally Love their children?

Here on earth we can take the little Love we do have with our little faith and use it in the market place of life so it multiplies, so some will inter heaven with more Love than others, but what does that mean?

If Paul Loves me more than I can Love Paul back, who is the winner and loser in that scenario?

If Paul has a mansion and throws a huge party, will I be invited and where will Paul let me sit?

Would Paul share his mansion with me?

 

[ZacharyB]

The FG2: "The Bible never says or even suggests that justification
is based on continuing in anything. If so, what verse says that?"

samir: It's all over the New Testament. I could probably post 100 verses ...

This has been my magic number all along also: 100 anti-OSAS NT verses!
However, the FG2 has seen 'em and rejected 'em several times!
Thus and therefore, why waste your time on him?

 

[ZacharyB]

God said he would NEVER forsake you OR leave you!
Jesus said he would NEVER lose who God gives him!
Either God and Jesus tell the truth OR they both lie about this.
I just don't see how one can live in denial of this!

'Tis quite simple ... you don't know WHO They were referring to!

IMO, they were referring to God's elect,
who heed the many dire warnings in the NT,
and walk the narrow path/road to eternal life.

True saving belief-faith produces
true love for Jesus and obedience to Him.

News Flash ...
This is miraculously possible for these people (and others)
through God's free gift of grace (unmerited favor) by which
He imparts the seed of faith, which enables them to believe.
Razbeerishlee? (Bulgarian for "Dost thouest understandeth?")

 

[Thursday]

To be clear, what He said that you've quoted wasn't in reference to either getting saved or maintaining one's salvation.

Do you think you can be saved if you are consistently disobedient to Jesus without repenting?

 

[Thursday]

Not that I don't sin but I won't willfully sin because I have no desire to willfully sin.
That is the whole point...I choose not to!
Let me ask you again....do you have a desire to willfully sin?....Will you ever chose to?

Sometimes I sin, but I confess the sin and am forgiven.

1 John 1
8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

John 20
If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

 

[Born Again2004]

8If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

This is a true statement but, it is not to who you think it is. This message was to Gnostics of time; to non-believers...not to believers as you think!

Sometimes I sin, but I confess the sin and am forgiven.

Do you confess every sin, 24/7 with no failure?

 

[Born Again2004]

'Tis quite simple ... you don't know WHO They were referring to!

NEWS Flash!...it is either non-believers or believers.....why would Jesus say he would never lose who God gave him and be referring to non-believers....which God hasn't given him yet!

 

[Thursday]

This is a true statement but, it is not to who you think it is. This message was to Gnostics of time; to non-believers...not to believers as you think!

Do you confess every sin, 24/7 with no failure?

Sounds like he is writing to Christians to me:

28And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.


I confess regularly and receive absolution. It is not necessary to remember every sin if you are sincerely sorry for your sins.

 

[Born Again2004]

Please prove that John was writing to gnostics.
That seems inconsistent with the rest of the book.

Sounds like he is writing to Christians to me:

• Yes and I made the same mistake. The verse 1 John1:9 gave me concern until I understood what was going on. I am not a theologist, but I study many on this passage. It appears to me that Gnostics were prevalent in John's time and he was explaining to how to become saved....not to those who were already saved!
• Of course you have a right to your opinion but your thoughts do not match the rest of the Gospel narrative for me..... your salvation is not dependent on you asking for forgiveness all the time....if it were and under God's expectation you would have to ask for forgiveness for every sin and never miss one, not once! Jesus died once for all and all sins....your proof of salvation or , if you will, works required is the possession of a repentant heart....not your own actual works like asking for forgiveness as a requirement of God.

 

[Thursday]

• Yes and I made the same mistake. The verse 1 John1:9 gave me concern until I understood what was going on. I am not a theologist, but I study many on this passage. It appears to me that Gnostics were prevalent in John's time and he was explaining to how to become saved....not to those who were already saved!
• Of course you have a right to your opinion but your thoughts do not match the rest of the Gospel narrative for me..... your salvation is not dependent on you asking for forgiveness all the time....if it were and under God's expectation you would have to ask for forgiveness for every sin and never miss one, not once! Jesus died once for all and all sins....your proof of salvation or , if you will, works required is the possession of a repentant heart....not your own actual works like asking for forgiveness as a requirement of God.

Why did Jesus say this?

Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Why did Paul say this?

Romans 2
6God will repay each person according to what they have done. 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

and this,

Philippians 3:13
Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have laid hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead.

Why did Peter say this?

1 Peter 1:17
Since you call on a Father who judges each person's work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.

 

[Born Again2004]

Sure @Thursday but please keep this is mind...I believe that I am saved by God's grace alone and nothing I could every do makes any difference!

Why did Jesus say this?
Matt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

In the end, it comes down to this...who is a true believer and saved and who isn't.
Where do you go to church? I am sure you are not saying there and everywhere that everyone who calls themselves is a Christian, a true Christian, I am sure you already know that some are a Christian in name only and have never been born again. This is what Jesus is saying here...at judgement day many will say Lord, Lord...look at what we have done and he will reject them as non-believer. You must remember that a true Christian has Jesus in them...no Jesus -no salvation!

Why did Paul say this?
Romans 2
6God will repay each person according to what they have done. 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

According to if you have received Christ in or not...it is that simple. You have Christ in you, yes?...like me, won't you be persistent? BTW, nothing a human does is ever perfect!

and this,
Philippians 3:13
Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have laid hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead.
It is mostly hard when you take a single verse out of context. Paul, yearned to be perfect, yet he knew he was not and he always urged himself and others to forge forward.....don't forget what he said in Romans 8:1.....he worked at never looking at the past only the future but regardless, he KNEW, when he faltered , there was no condemnation.
Why did Peter say this?
1 Peter 1:17
Since you call on a Father who judges each person's work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.

I am not sure what you are pointing to here other than you might be worried about your own working! Don't forget these two things:

1. God said your salvation is NOT about your works
2. Faith without works is dead

These do not meant your works but his work through you...remember Jesus said: " If you are in me and I in you, you will have many works. These are the works God judges independently in each of us...basically that Jesus is in you!

 

[Thursday]

Sure @Thursday but please keep this is mind...I believe that I am saved by God's grace alone and nothing I could every do makes any difference!

That's a terribly dangerous position to take.

Only those who endure will be saved. If you deny him, he will deny you. Sin can shipwreck your faith. Anyone who puts their hand to the plow but then looks back is not worthy of the Kingdom.

2 Peter 2:20
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

 

[Born Again2004]

That's a terribly dangerous position to take.

Only those who endure will be saved. If you deny him, he will deny you. Sin can shipwreck your faith. Anyone who puts their hand to the plow but then looks back is not worthy of the Kingdom.

2 Peter 2:20
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

Terrible dangerous for you perhaps because you have to have continued works to acquire salvation...I on the other hand believe in Grace alone by God alone and not by any my own works or it wouldn't be grace!! I have no plans or chance of denial.....sorry you appear to have that chance!

 

[Thursday]

Terrible dangerous for you perhaps because you have to have continued works to acquire salvation...I on the other hand believe in Grace alone by God alone and not by any my own works or it wouldn't be grace!! I have no plans or chance of denial.....sorry you appear to have that chance!

You must remain in the love of Jesus to be saved. You must endure to be saved.

The bible warns you about this.

Heb. 3:14
We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

Romans 11:22
Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

2 Peter 2:20
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.