Eternal vs conditional security, or OSAS vs LOS

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"The Bible never says or even suggests that justification is based on continuing in anything. If so, what verse says that?"

It's all over the New Testament.

Maybe you're unaware of just how much of a dodge that really is. In fact, there aren't any, or if there were, it would have been quite easy to find at least one of them. So your claim has been proven wrong by failing to provide any verses.

I could probably post 100 verses but I think it's better if you read the New Testament for yourself instead of just relying on the verses your pastor quoted to you.

More disingenuous claims. Again, your unsubstantiated claim is proven wrong by failure to provide even one of them.

And just so you know, I read through the entire NT monthly. So I know well what it says.

Note that the Bible never says or even suggests that once a person who is justified at one point in time will remain justified forever.

More importantly is the FACT that the Bible never says or even suggests that justification can be lost. If it could, why are there no verses that make that claim?

The bible says faith comes from God which makes it supernatural.

As a noun, of course it is supernatural. As a verb, it is not.

Galatians 5 and 1Cor 6 both said "will not inherit the kingdom" and you couldn't refute them nor show where any Christians agreed with you.

Sure I did. I pointed out that those passages are in parallel with Eph 5, which says such lifestyle common to ALL 3 passages results in NOT HAVING an inheritance IN the kingdom. iow, they will get in, but they will NOT HAVE an inheritance.

But those unfamiliar with the doctrine of eternal rewards will not understand any of this.

Another good passage is John 15:5-6:

"I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. (NKJV)"

All passages are good. Which brings up the whole point of the OP: what are all those verses good for, if they don't teach eternal security?

But, back to Jn 15. Jesus' point was service to Him. The farming metaphor is about service. Branches that don't produce are not used for service. It's that simple. The verse cannot be about loss of salvation because of the verses where Jesus promises that those who believe HAVE eternal life, and those who have eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH.

And, again, there are NO VERSES that tell us that eternal life can be lost.

In fact, Paul refutes such an idea by describing eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23 and then saying that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

Rom 11:21-22 also clearly refutes OSAS:

"For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. (NKJV)"

No, it doesn't. Again, it's about service and when the Jews didn't believe in their Messiah, they were cut off from God's service. Recall that the nation of Israel was chosen to serve.

You claimed "the entire concept of grace was lost by the second century" which implies the concept of grace was understood earlier. However, it looks like you don't have any evidence that any of the early Christians interpreted the scriptural passages on grace the same way you do.

If your interpretation of scripture is correct, why isn't there any evidence of any early Christians who agree with your interpretation?

What do you mean by "early Christians"? Initially you noted ECF, which are those who came AFTER the writers of Scripture. The last book of the NT is Revelation, written somewhere between 85-96 AD. So writers AFTER the Bible was finished would ALL be considered second century.

And I have already pointed out that what the ECFs wrote are commentaries. They are not inspired writings.

I personally don't care what those in the 2nd century thought. I care very much what the writers of Scripture wrote. Do you see the difference?

 

[FreeGrace2]

God said he would NEVER forsake you OR leave you!
Jesus said he would NEVER lose who God gives him!
Either God and Jesus tell the truth OR they both lie about this.
I just don't see how one can live in denial of this!

Just like the Pharisees in Jesus' day who SAW the miracles and still denied His Deity.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It's totally irrelevant and your response indicates you obviously don't know. Now where exactly does the Bible say spiritual gifts are irrevocable?

Seriously? Paul mentions "spiritual GIFTS". What's not to understand about the FACT that they are GIFTS from God. Are you in denial of what Rom 11:29 says? It says that the gifts and calling of God are IRREVOCABLE. And that was written AFTER Paul described 3 different things as gifts:
1. spiritual gifts
2. justification
3. eternal life

Therefore, all of them are irrevocable.

The only way to refute this would be to find a verse(s) that directly exclude any of these gifts from being irrevocable. There is no other way.

How about we trust the credentials Greek Scholars to render it into English and we just deal with the English, okay?

Are you willing to do that with Rom 11:29 and the word "irrevocable" as well?

The gift which was Jesus became our righteousness. It's pretty simple. In ourselves no man has righteousness but in Jesus he becomes our righteousness, just as he becomes our Mediator, and our Confessor, and Our Redeemer, and our Savior. He is the total package. One gift but many attributes.

And how does any of this change anything I've posted?

Did you not even bother to read John 11? I guess I can't blame you if you find it hard to understand because Martha found it hard to understand and she was talking to him face-to-face, but when Jesus said to her what he did and verses 25 to 26 she clearly understood by her response in v27. Yes I do believe Jesus was cleared it's just that you don't fully comprehend what it was telling you so I suggest you read Philippians 3:10-14, and let Paul put it into perspective for you. He recognized that he did not HAVE eternal life, but he did understand what it took to actually acquire it and have it.

I will ignore this extreme rudeness and false charge.

I read through the NT monthly, and have done so for more than a dozen years. I won't ask about your reading habits.

Once again, go through the OP and explain what the verse teach, if not eternal security.

Then you don't believe Hebrews 9:27, or John 11:25?

I'd love to know why one would think these verses refute my views. Please advise.

The the point is you worry too much about the tense instead of understanding the sense in which Jesus & Paul were talking.

It is this kind of sloppy thinking and scholarship that leads to the views of LOS. "just ignore the words (which includes their tenses, moods, and voices) and just focus on "the sense" of which they were talking". Yeah, sure. Go with that.

Any Greek scholar will tell you that the ONLY WAY to understand what the Bible means is to pay attention to tenses, moods, and voices. It's called grammar.

Figuratively one may have eternal life and have passed from Death To Life but literally that doesn't happen until it actually literally happens.

Nope. Jesus SAID that believers HAVE eternal life. That's not "figurative".

This is a sense that you're not getting and which is why you miss use the word.

Geez. Pot.calling.kettle.black.

It's no different then when the word says 'the soul that sins dies'... did you die when you first sinned?

Well, through much study, I've learned all the different uses for the word "dead" in Scripture. When a believer sins, they grieve or quench the Holy Spirit, which breaks fellowship. In THAT SENSE (since you like to think about "the sense of things) the believer's fellowship with God HAS literally died.

To use an old Beatles song as an analogy, you may have a Ticket To Ride, but it does you no good if you throw it away or don't end up getting on the train.

And I'll take this example and throw it away, as it has zero relevance to the issue of one's salvation.

Well that is what you're saying now but that isn't the point and you haven't demonstrated that all gifts fall into this category that you have insisted they do.

It should be very easy to refute my view by just providing any verse that teaches that any of God's gifts are revocable. So, please proceed.

Apparently you have totally forgotten about King Solomon's gift, or the parable that Jesus taught in Matthew 25:14-30?

So, please explain these gifts and show how they are related to the issue.

Now all you're doing is avoiding and obfuscating. Which gift does the Bible say is irrevocable? It does not say that ALL his gifts are irrevocable.

The Bible is clear about it: "the gifts of God". AND, there is NO exception attached to that claim. So the OBVIOUS conclusion should be that none are revocable.

So, if there are any that are revocable, why would one suppose that the Bible NEVER says which ones?

It means in the instance that it is used that God cannot revoke what he has given. You somehow seem to think that includes revoking our Free Will which of course it doesn't.

Seriously? Does God really allow His children to do ALL that they may plan to do? Come on. Be reasonable. God can change our plans any time He wants. And He does.

Oh you mean like you're being unambiguous? How about Matthew 10:33?

I'm really not sure what idea you're referring to because you keep on running back and forth between different scriptures that mean different things. This is the problem when you try to cherry-pick verses out of context to use them to enforce something else that is not enforceable.

Then I suggest that when (if) I do that you stop right there and point it out and explain how they are different. Anyone can make any claim they want. Please back your up with substance.

No I am not greater than them and Jesus isn't implying anything he stating the truth.

Then why would your view be that a believer can lose salvation?

It's not much different than the scripture that states nothing can separate us from the love of God, Rom 8:38-39, however in both cases the scriptures do not negate or interfere with the Free Will that we have been given by God himself.

Why would free will have anything to do with eternal security. The issue is about what God has promised, not what may may decide later on.

You failed understand or accept that apostasy is a matter of our free will.

Well, you're once AGAIN!! I fully understand that apostasy is a matter of free will.

I think that rather too try and reconstruct this after-the-fact you up to deal with it using the features of this forum, as you evidently know how to do. All you're doing here is muddying up the waters and I must say I'm not sure if it's deliberate or unintended.

I have no idea what this is referring to. What do the "features of this forum" have to do with anything, and how am I "using them"?? And how have I muddied up the waters?

First of all because the Greek word being used isφθορά (phthora), which does not conduct any form of discipline, and secondly because the gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus. When one is destroyed one does not receive eternal life.

Jesus refuted your claim in John 5:24. But you have admitted that you have rejected the rules of grammar and therefore cannot comprehend the meanings of the words in Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Never said I had no assurance, I said I had no security.

I assure you that they are the same thing.

God's word gives me plenty of assurance but obviously you don't understand the difference between the two words. People of Faith don't need security they just need faith. God said it, I believe it, that settles it!

The problem is understand what God said. What He said means security for the believer, regardless of circumstances.

Please address just point 5 of the OP; the passage on 1 Thess 5, which I exegeted. And point out from each verse where my exegesis is wrong.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Got to be one of, if not my favorite Bible verse! Let me ask both @StanJ and @FreeGrace2 a question......Once saved, is that not a gift of Grace from God and both a gift of salvation and a gift redemption?

Yep. And an irrevocable gift, since Paul never excluded the gift of eternal life from God's gifts that are revocable.

Come to think of it; where does the Bible tell us or show us that any of His gifts are revocable? None. Of course.

 

[Thursday]

Seriously? Paul mentions "spiritual GIFTS". What's not to understand about the FACT that they are GIFTS from God.

Romans 11
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

 

[bling]

There is no way to respond to such a big post. But, if any of these verses actually teach that one can lose their salvation, please explain what the passages in the OP are teaching then.

I did briefly address the OP in my post 24, but you gave lots of verses without the context, so when I give the context and explanation it takes lots of words. Every one of my follow up posts went on to explain the context further.

I agree all verses have to be consistent so each needs a logical alternative explanation that is consistent with all other verses.


I have given Gal. 6: 8-9 as one of Paul’s most direct explanation/warning of how a Christian can “give up” his/her harvest of eternal life, so that would be a good verse for you to address.

So far the only “explanation” you have given for Gal. 6: 8-9 is to suggest: “Paul is not talking about “eternal life” but is talking about an “abundant life”, but that does not make sense. Paul’s specific words are “eternal life” and not “abundant life”. The idea is the “harvest” of eternal life is one time in the future and if you “give up” you get no harvest, so no “eternal life”.

If the Christian is getting any “blessing and rewards” for doing good here on earth these “blessings and rewards” would be “earned” and not pure gifts?

Do Christians do good stuff out of loving gratitude or to earn some “rewards”?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I think believers during this dispensation we have eternal security, but it's not like that throughout the whole Bible.

Actually, it is like that throughout Scripture.

Consider King Saul. Because of his consulting with a medium, God killed him (which is divine discipline) in 1 Chron 10:13,14 - 13 So Saul died for his trespass which he committed against the LORD, because of the word of the LORD which he did not keep; and also because he asked counsel of a medium, making inquiry of it, 14 and did not inquire of the LORD. Therefore He killed him and turned the kingdom to David the son of Jesse.

Then, because of that seance, Samuel came back to tell Saul that he would join him the next day.
1 Sam 28:19 - “Moreover the LORD will also give over Israel along with you into the hands of the Philistines, therefore tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. Indeed the LORD will give over the army of Israel into the hands of the Philistines!”

We all know that Samuel was a true prophet of the LORD, not a false prophet. And he told Saul where Saul would be the next day; with Samuel.

Please don't make the silly mistake of claiming that Samuel was only referring to "being in the grave". As a believer, Samuel was in Paradise, where all believers went after death.

No believer would make reference to just being "in a grave" after death.

Jesus presented a very conditional and works based salvation in the Gospels.

Really? Consider this:
For salvation:
Mark 16:16
16 " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Luke 8:12
12 "Those beside the road are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their heart, so that they will not believe and be saved.

Acts 4:12
12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14
14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31
They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

Rom 10:9, 10
9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:5
5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

For eternal life:
John 3:15-16
15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24
24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40
40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13
These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

See any difference? No. So, the claim that Jesus presented a very "conditional and works based salvation" is false.

Paul wrote these:
Rom 4:4,5 - 4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Eph 2:8,9 - 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Clearly, you are not familiar with what the Bible teaches on the subject.

Things like if we don't forgive others we won't be forgiven, if we deny Jesus he will deny us, if we don't endure to the end we won't be saved, etc. Prior to the death of Jesus and his blood atonement, people were righteous based on their own actions, salvation as a free gift was not there. I also think after the rapture happens and the Time of Jacobs Trouble starts salvation becomes conditional again due to the Mark of the Beast. Instead of trying to twist the verses that disprove eternal security like Hebrews 10:26 and 2 Peter 2:21-22 I just attribute them to a future time period. After all, if we can lose salvation, then Hebrews 6:4-6 proves we can never get it back. It makes more sense to me that these refer to people who get saved then take the Mark of the Beast, which condemns you to Hell.

None of this is in reference to loss of salvation.

So your claim is based on assumption.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Seriously? Paul mentions "spiritual GIFTS". What's not to understand about the FACT that they are GIFTS from God."

Romans 11
22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

This is a good example of how the LOS folk don't read clearly.

My comments were about the gifts of God. Where in Rom 11:22 does anyone find anything about gifts? We don't. So one HAS TO assume to think that Paul was referring to loss of salvation or eternal life in that verse.

And one needs to understand how metaphors are used. In this one, a farming one, the issue is about service, and that since the Jews were in unbelief, God cannot use them for His service. Recall that the election of Israel was for service.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have given Gal. 6: 8-9 as one of Paul’s most direct explanation/warning of how a Christian can “give up” his/her harvest of eternal life, so that would be a good verse for you to address.

So far the only “explanation” you have given for Gal. 6: 8-9 is to suggest: “Paul is not talking about “eternal life” but is talking about an “abundant life”, but that does not make sense.

It won't make any sense to any who have not been taught about the doctrine of eternal reward, which seems to be fairly common.

Paul’s specific words are “eternal life” and not “abundant life”. The idea is the “harvest” of eternal life is one time in the future and if you “give up” you get no harvest, so no “eternal life”.

It's a mistake to equate harvest with eternal life. To have a harvest, one must WORK FOR IT. You know, plant, water, grow, prune, etc, and finally, collect the harvest. If eternal life is a harvest, then salvation is by works. I totally reject that idea. We are saved by grace, which those of the LOS side seem not to understand.

If the Christian is getting any “blessing and rewards” for doing good here on earth these “blessings and rewards” would be “earned” and not pure gifts?

Which is the whole point of being a reward. Rewards are earned. Gifts are not.

Do Christians do good stuff out of loving gratitude or to earn some “rewards”?

Either. Paul even made comment on motivation:
1 Cor 9:17 - For if I do this voluntarily, I have a reward; but if against my will, I have a stewardship entrusted to me

Point being; if one wants to be rewarded, they are going to have to earn it. But those who aren't interested, won't have an inheritance in the kingdom. They will be there, but they will not have any inheritance there.

 

[Thursday]

My comments were about the gifts of God. Where in Rom 11:22 does anyone find anything about gifts? We don't. So one HAS TO assume to think that Paul was referring to loss of salvation or eternal life in that verse.

Do you believe someone who has been cut off from God will go to heaven?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Do you believe someone who has been cut off from God will go to heaven?

By understanding what is meant by "cut off" yes, sure. They will.

In fact, point 5 of the OP directly addresses this. I've given exegesis of the passage. Please review it and address it.

 

[Thursday]

It's a mistake to equate harvest with eternal life. To have a harvest, one must WORK FOR IT.

That's the whole point:

Paul tells us: DO NOT BE DECEIVED, a man reaps what he sows.

What are we talking about reaping?

Paul tells us again: whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

 

[Thursday]

By understanding what is meant by "cut off" yes, sure. They will.

In fact, point 5 of the OP directly addresses this. I've given exegesis of the passage. Please review it and address it.

6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

10If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That's the whole point:

Paul tells us: DO NOT BE DECEIVED, a man reaps what he sows.

What are we talking about reaping?

Being rewarded for his work. Doesn't "sowing" involve work? We are not saved by working for it.

Paul tells us again: whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Once again, to "reap" has the clear connotation of being rewarded for effort. The verse teaches eternal rewards. Not salvation.

 

[FreeGrace2]

6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

10If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.

This is about fellowship with Christ. Having fellowship with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is not on critical but absolutely necessary in order to bear fruit.

To "remain in Christ" means to have fellowship. It certainly cannot mean to maintain your own salvation, or doing something in order to stay saved, as so many seem to think.

Jesus put that one to rest in Jn 10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

The words "no one" means "no person". That would also include the believe himself.

So, not even a believer can remove himself from being "in Christ".

Further, since it seems the OP isn't familiar to you, the second point deals with the sealing with the Holy Spirit, which is a promise of eternal security.

Here's the point:
Second, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).

And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

If these verses aren't teaching eternal security, what are they teaching?

 

[Born Again2004]

I wasn't insulted. I've been doing this schtick for a long time and I can guarantee you that I don't get easily insulted but having said that I am very confrontational. Not bragging that's just the way it is. In case you hadn't noticed Jesus doesn't want us to be comfortable in our salvation.
As I've said a couple of times now, nobody's salvation is secure. They either believe their saved or they don't believe they're saved. Those who fall away, are going to fall away regardless. Paul said it very succinctly in Philippians 2:12-13;
Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.

Sure, you have a right to your opinion and the verses that you think supports your forever notion that before you die or perhaps changed in the blink of an eye, you have to hold on or perform in some righteous way...again and again...to prevent a "falling away"! I also have the right to mine, in which, I have my own scriptures, I consider myself more of a "Heart Christian" than a "Head Christian", that I somehow believe inside that God is greater and makes no mistakes. He also told Paul that his grace was sufficient and refused to remove the thorn from his side''....His grace is perfect, sufficient and it is his work through us; not our work. If it were a matter of our continued work and falling away or not, we all would fall away...but God did, what only he could do to defeat Satan and death, he devised a perfect plan and took us completely out of the equation!

 

[Born Again2004]

Yes it does. The bible is quite clear that we can be cut off from the vine to which we are connected.

Sin can shipwreck our faith. Dead faith will not save you.
We must endure to be saved.

Not even Paul claimed that he couldn't fall away:

1 Cor 9:27
No, I strike a blow to my body and make it my slave so that after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified for the prize.

Phil 3
10I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

Why did Paul talk about not being able to control sin in Romans 7 but in Romans 8:1...said that when he did there was no condemnation for him? ...Sure he pressed on...don't you....it is the same desire I have.....that is because of him in me....without him in me, I could care less....every "Born Again" Christian has the eternal desire to succeed, press on and please God.....but when we mess up...there is no condemnation for us.....our salvation remains in the hands of God and secure...I have total trust in him and none in me or what I may do or not do! ...If I did, I could boast, which I can't!

 

[Born Again2004]

Just like the Pharisees in Jesus' day who SAW the miracles and still denied His Deity.

Maybe we agree to this but, much is lost in translation. It appears to me that you are comparing Apples to Oranges. I am talking about believers..... you are talking about the bulk of the Pharisees and Sadducees of the day which where controlled by Satan and where non-believers. They were supposed to be experts in the Torah and should have know who Jesus was...but they denied scriptures as well!

 

[Thursday]

Why did Paul talk about not being able to control sin in Romans 7 but in Romans 8:1...said that when he did there was no condemnation for him? ...Sure he pressed on...don't you....it is the same desire I have.....that is because of him in me....without him in me, I could care less....every "Born Again" Christian has the eternal desire to succeed, press on and please God.....but when we mess up...there is no condemnation for us.....our salvation remains in the hands of God and secure...I have total trust in him and none in me or what I may do or not do! ...If I did, I could boast, which I can't!

Do you believe you will be saved if you start to persistently disobey the teachings of Jesus without repenting?