Eternal Torment is nowhere in The Bible

[DrBubbaLove]

If you live on the correct farm it is only the goats on the left who go up in smoke like the fat of lambs.

Again one was never asked if one believes God annihilates the goats. That is a given by your simple need to repeat so many times that is so - which does nothing to prove it is so BTW.

One was asked how one can speak of annihilated goats as if they still exist. The answer was given on another thread saying that UT holders of annihilation can suspend all logic and speak of things like "flying pigs" being "banished" and that explaining why we do not see "flying pigs" anymore. Thank you for finally conceding and addressing my point.

 

[he-man]

Again one was never asked if one believes God annihilates the goats.

deleted

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Where do you see the word annihilate?

So now you deny a belief that the damned are annihilated????:o

 

[he-man]

Again one was never asked if one believes God annihilates the goats.

How about the ungodly if they do not stand in the judgment how can they stand anywhere when they perish from the face of God and are then considered as the enemies of the LORD?
I guess you don't live on the correct farm or you would know it is only the goats on the left who go up in smoke like the fat of lambs[/B].

Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Mat 3:12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Ps 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous

Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. 49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and exclude the wicked from among the just,

Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away
Ps 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the ungodly perish [אָבַ֖ד âbad] from the face of God. [ Joel 1:11 אָבַ֖ד (Chaldee); corresponding to H6 - destroy, perish]

By whose authority did Christ speak? Joh_10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
Rev_2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but His that sent me.
And not to mention that you ignore what the MSS says about the logos.

Strange but Metzger lists all 15 of the Nomina Sacra and the Greek, "word"as used in the MSS of John 1:1 is not listed as one of the 15.
There is no line drawn at the top of LOGOS!

The abbreviation of θεός/Theos and other substantives becomes the "nomina sacra" when a line is drawn at the top of the letters. The Nomina Sacra identified
The Nomina Sacra are contracted Greek words representing 15 frequently occurring names (or titles) in Scripture. The contraction was written with an overline.

Look now at the MSS Codex Sinaiticus and see if "word" has the Nomina Sacra over it and see that it does NOT but both θν and θϲ have the Nomina Sacra over them.
Do you see the start of the second verse "ουτοϲ"? It does not say αυτος it says ουτοϲ. Tyndale properly translated that as 1:2 "The same"

1 εν αρχη ην ο λογοϲ και ο λογοϲ ην προϲ τον θν και θϲ ην ο λογοϲ
2 ουτοϲ ην εν αρχη προϲ τον θν
3 πατα δι αυτου εγενετο και χωριϲ αυτου εγενετο ουδεν ὁ γεγονεν

Do you know what the Koine is for πρός? towards, near to, against, back, on the side of, in the eyes of, in the name of (+ gen); near, in addition to (+ dat); toward (+ acc) ; regarding, for, besides, except, with regard to (Jn. 1:1), concerning; (Low Nida specification) 89.7; compare regarding; headword

Translated it reads:
1:1 In a beginning was that word, and that word was with regard to God: and God was that word.

1:2 This was in a beginning with regard to God.

1:3 All things happened through Him, and without Him, nothing, happened to be.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

How about the ungodly if they do not stand in the judgment how can they stand anywhere when they perish from the face of God and are then considered as the enemies of the LORD?

Exactly as one as already previously admitted and admits again here, it makes no sense "" to speak of something one claims does not exist as "standing" anywhere or STILL being the enemies of the Lord if one says they no longer exist. Just like one cannot speak of flying pigs being "banished" explaining why we do not see them.

Am glad you finally agreed it makes no sense to speak that way about something that does not exist. Am sadden that anyone would need to render Scripture as speaking that way in order to defend one's view.

 

[he-man]

Exactly as one as already previously admitted and admits again here, it makes no sense "" to speak of something one claims does not exist as "standing" anywhere or STILL being the enemies of the Lord if one says they no longer exist. Just like one cannot speak of flying pigs being "banished" explaining why we do not see them.

Pigs that run off the cliff no longer exist.I said the ungodly if they do not stand in the judgment how can they stand anywhere when they perish from the face of God and are then considered as the enemies of the LORD,

Ps 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God. And so according to the Bible:

Ps 1:4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and exclude the wicked from among the just, .

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Mt 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and exclude the wicked from among the just,

Ps 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Pigs that run off the cliff no longer exist.

Which is why it would make NO sense to speak of those pigs now as being "banished", which is my point regarding your rendering of a verse which says those are ALREADY annihilated are banished from the presence of the Lord. You have already repeatedly now conceded it makes no sense to speak of something that no longer exists as if it still does. What you have not done is explained why one insists the Scripture has to be rendered to nonsense to support one's view.

I said the ungodly if they do not stand in the judgment how can they stand anywhere when they perish from the face of God and are then considered as the enemies of the LORD,.

Again, something that everyone believes "stands in judgment" obviously exists, other wise it cannot stand anywhere. Things which do not exist cannot be said to do anything or be anything or be anywhere.

The damned standing in judgment clearly exists, so they can stand. The question is what happens after. You say they are annihilated, meaning cease to exist.

How anything that is said AFTER judgment to perish or be destroyed - and have that understood as meaning annihilated - as in ceasing to exist - CAN AFTERWARDS be spoken of as "being" anything (like an "enemy") or "being" anywhere (as in not over there) is NONSENSE. Yet that is exactly how one renders the verses speaking of the damned AFTER they are punished.

 

[SkyWriting]

Ok, I will play, especially since I cannot get a proper response from He-man.
There is a difference between making non-sensical statements and telling a story,myth,legend depicting Supernatural acts of God. God making something from nothing - which is actually infered and not explicit in the Creation myth - would be non-sensical if it were not for our beliefs regarding God's abilities. It does not defy logic because we assume an ability on His part. So am unclear what other point from this myth one thinks is non-sense.

Even God's abilities could be discussed in non-sensical matters - can He make a rock too big for Him to move for example is a classic non-sensical question. Just as the idea of somehow "restricting" movement (and thereby location) of something which does not exist is non-sensical.

Which is my point to the other poster in his saying that in his view a NT verse has the damned annihilated, but then spoken of as if they were located somewhere in the same sentence.

Annihilation could mean the body and the location would then be where the spirits reside.
Would be one explanation.

The story about the immovable rock is just wordplay. You put a Spirit being on one side of the equation and physical existence on the other and you'll get logic conflicts. Just stands to reason.

 

[SkyWriting]

The damned standing in judgment clearly exists, so they can stand. The question is what happens after. You say they are annihilated, meaning cease to exist.

Annihilation would only happen after the second death.

 

[he-man]

Which is why it would make NO sense to speak of those pigs now as being "banished", which is my point regarding your rendering of a verse which says those are ALREADY annihilated are banished from the presence of the Lord.

Sorry dude but it says into smoke shall they consume away and after the pigs ran into the lake they were suffocated but your statement "are ALREADY annihilated" applies to those who are the ungodly and will not be raised to face the judgment because they have already been given their wages like a bag with holes

Luk 8:33 Then went the evil spirits out of the man, and entered into the pigs: and the herd rushed headlong down the steep into the lake, and were suffocated.

The Bible says that the ungodly do not stand in the judgment so how can they stand anywhere when they perish from the face of God and are then considered as the enemies of the LORD and shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away?

Ps 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

Psa 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Just as Matthew says the BAD are thrown overboard and are CAST away when the angels come and exclude the wicked from among the just, at the end of this age .

Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and exclude the wicked from among the just,

Ps 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

Who shall pay a penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 2Th 1:9

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[14messenger]

No, Smoke of their torment term doesn't mean torment or even eternal torment, posting again

For ever and ever is quite clear.

 

[14messenger]

Are those that serve against God, one with satan?

Luke 16:25 suggests that Lazarus was tormented while on earth and is now comforted.

Ye shall be as your master. Matthew 10:25, Luke 6:40.

Revelation 20:10

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Sorry dude but it says into smoke shall they consume away and after the pigs ran into the lake

LOL, I just realize someone thinks all my references to "flying pigs" relates to this miracle of Jesus. If those pigs in that miracle had wings and could fly, then the herd would not have fallen into the water and drowned. Animals falling off a cliff are not "flying". Last I checked "flying" is said to have evolved to defeat gravity.

The only reason I ever mentioned "flying pigs" is to illustrate the gibberish of speaking of something that has NEVER existed as if it does exist. For someone to claim we will never see "flying day glow orange pigs" on farmer Jim's farm is because Jim "banished" them is NON-SENSE. We will never see "flying day glow orange pigs" because those things do not exist.

Just like having Saint Paul or Saint John speaking of people that one claims no longer exist (damned because they have been annihilated) as if those people still exist is gibberish. If Saint Paul or Saint John understood perish or destroy the way some here do, then they would NOT have spoken of people perished or destroyed as if those people still existed. Yet they did speak of those people that way.

So either one is mistaken on what the NT writers meant by words like perish, destroyed or one is ok with the writers recording gibberish. Take your pick.

 

[14messenger]

Last I checked "flying" is said to have evolved to defeat gravity.

Or embrace gravity.

 

[he-man]

The only reason I ever mentioned "flying pigs" is to illustrate the gibberish of speaking of something that has NEVER existed as if it does exist.

You keep digging your hole deeper and deeper every time you try to fool someone with your torture theory.

That shows you do not understand that dead people who do not exist anymore shall forever be denied a possibility of rest with our Lord.You seem to come short of what "REST" means.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Mat_11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:9 Who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Deu 29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.

Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

You keep digging your hole deeper and deeper every time you try to fool .

LOL, the only person digging a deeper hole and attempting to fool people is the one refusing to support the claim he made. Defending orthodoxy is not the topic of this thread, nor is it the purpose of the UT section. Defending UT beliefs against claims it makes no sense would be an example of the purpose of the UT section.

Let's recap: an admission was already made that it makes absolutely no sense to speak of things which do not exist in a manner as if they do exist or as if they still exist (in this case the damned for whom it said no longer exist after being annihilated post judgement). We all agree on that much.

Now, rather than wanting to speak of why one needs to render Scripture into gibberish by stating having it do EXACTLY what one agrees is non-sense, one simply alternates between attempting to take pot shots at me and simply offering other Scripture purported to support one's view. Am still waiting for an explanation of why it is ok with some UT folks to have Scripture rendered into gibberish to support one's view of the afterlife.

No one asked for Scripture to support one's view, as that has been done a hundred times over all ready. No one doubts that some here in UT land sincerely believe those Scripture support their view of the afterlife. EVERYONE should have doubts about why that view requires Scripture to be rendered to/understood as gibberish in order to bring Scripture in line with that view.

It is not enough to just say Scripture says the damned no longer exist (annihilated) and are also banished. One needs to explain how it makes sense to simultaneously speak of something as no longer existing and ALSO banished at same time. If a person exists, then that person can be "banished" from a place or to a place. A person can be claimed to no longer exist. A person CANNOT be said to be banished AND not exist at same time.

Again I completely understand the trouble one must have when faced with the illogical rendering/understanding of Scripture and why one continues to repeatedly avoid wanting to talk about it.

 

[he-man]

LOL, the only person digging a deeper hole and attempting to fool people is the one refusing to support the claim he made.

It is your choice. Rom 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

1Co 9:8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?

That shows you do not understand that dead people who do not exist anymore shall forever be denied a possibility of rest with our Lord.[/B]You seem to come short of what "REST" means.

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Mat_11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

2Th 1:9 Who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Deu 29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.

Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

It is your choice.

Right. One has no response so just suggest the person asking question is in "unbelief".
Again the question was never one of belief. Everyone here knows Heman believes the damned will be annihilated.
What everyone does not know because Heman refuses to address it is why his view REQUIRES Scripture to be rendered utter non-sense.

That shows you do not understand that dead people who do not exist anymore shall forever be denied a possibility of rest with our Lord.

What is obviously not understood here is that it is impossible to deny anything to people who do not exist.

Say one had an imaginary friend as a child that one would actually be caught by others talking to that friend as a child. As adults, sane people would never speak of that "friend" as now being "DENIED" thier conversation, at least not in anything but a imaginary/fairy tale sense. Why?
BECAUSE THAT FRIEND DOES NOT EXIST.

There is NO coming back from non-existence. God is All Powerful, but if He did unmake a sentient being - He cannot remake that person again, just like He cannot make a rock so big He cannot lift it. He could certainly duplicate a person as many times and whenever He cares to (whether they are annihilated or not), maybe even convince the duplicate that it actually lived the life of the original.

Non-existence is non-existence - just like imaginary friends are non-existence. Just like our imaginary friends cannot be "denied the possibility of rest with our Lord" neither can people who no longer exist be denied ANYTHING.

And it makes no sense to speak as if things which do not exist can be denied something. Just like it makes no sense to speak of "banishing" flying pigs. Flying pigs can only be "banished" if they actually exist.

 

[he-man]

Again the question was never one of belief. Everyone here knows Heman believes the damned will be annihilated.
What is obviously not understood here is that it is impossible to deny anything to people who do not exist.

That continues to show that you do not understand that the dead people that knew not God and refused to obey His commandments, shall forever be denied a possibility of rest with our Lord.Now the "REST" of the story and what it means to not be allowed to enter into a place of rest with the Lord.
Since the Bible says that the ungodly do not stand in the judgment how could they stand anywhere when they perish from the face of God, having been considered as the enemies of the LORD, like the ones who crucified him?

Ps 68:2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

Just as Matthew says the BAD are thrown overboard and are CAST away when the angels come and exclude the wicked from among the just, at the end of this age .

Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and exclude the wicked from among the just,

Heb 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

Mat_11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9 Who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Deu 29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.

Ps 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

That
<snip-shorten to just where Heman addresses the point>

No one asked whether some people will be punished or not. We both believe some people will be punished forever. The question that remains unanswered is how to see Scripture, the Apostles speaking of people who no longer exist as if those people still exist. The only place we find writing/people speaking like this is in fairytales.
In fairytales we can speak of flying pigs being banished. In fairytales we can speak of children growing up and their age denying the possibility of seeing Peter Pan ever again.
Am simply asking how one can see Scriptures as a fairytale?