Eternal Torment is nowhere in The Bible

[he-man]

Some preachers are not accustomed to having people question their sermons and are obviously ill-prepared to do anything but repeat themselves.

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[Der Alte]

Some preachers are not accustomed to having people question their sermons and are obviously ill-prepared to do anything but repeat themselves.

I must disagree with you here. I think it should read, "Some 'preachers' are not accustomed to having people question their sermons and are obviously ill-prepared to do anything but repeat themselves."

 

[stevenfrancis]

Mark 9:40 Why, if anyone gives you a cup of water to drink in my name, because you are Christ’s, I promise you, he shall not miss his reward. 41 And if anyone hurts the conscience of one of these little ones, that believe in me, he had better have been cast into the sea, with a millstone about his neck. 42 If thy hand is an occasion of falling to thee, cut it off; better for thee to enter into life maimed, than to have two hands when thou goest into hell, into unquenchable fire; 43 the worm which eats them there never dies, the fire is never quenched. 44 And if thy foot is an occasion of falling to thee, cut it off; better for thee to enter into eternal life lame, than to have both feet when thou art cast into the unquenchable fire of hell; 45 the worm which eats them there never dies, the fire is never quenched. 46 And if thy eye is an occasion of falling, pluck it out; better for thee to enter blind into the kingdom of God, than to have two eyes when thou art cast into the fire of hell; 47 the worm which eats them there never dies, the fire is never quenched.

 

[he-man]

Some preachers are not accustomed to having people question their

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[DrBubbaLove]

I must disagree with you here. I think it should read, "Some 'preachers' are not accustomed to having people question their sermons and are obviously ill-prepared to do anything but repeat themselves."

Well I actually did not mean to exclude those who obtain the title from responding to a magazine ad.

 

[Der Alte]

Well I actually did not mean to exclude those who obtain the title from responding to a magazine ad.

My bad.

 

[JLS7982]

I'm no expert on the subject at hand, though I love to study and absorb the Word more than anything these days. I wish I was quicker on the draw with the Bible verses and quotes and what not, I greatly admire the Christians on CF who can keep a good conversation/debate/discussion going. I'll just throw my 2 cents in with what I think about it, may just be my opinion, that's fine if it is, I have much respect for you all. My view is that it is indeed eternal torment in Hell, (not Hades/Paradise, etc.), because in my opinion, nothing less would do. Our Lord Jesus is an ETERNAL being who allowed Himself to be tortured and crucified, and to DIE for us. I believe that only an ETERNAL punishment would do for rejecting Him, the most wonderful Gift in the world. God Bless

 

[DrBubbaLove]

amen and welcome to CF - the darkside here in UT land.

 

[JLS7982]

Thank you brother Love, it's great to be here, and God bless you!

 

[he-man]

Some preachers are not accustomed to having people question their sermons.

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[DrBubbaLove]

I wonder how long it takes to get the pastor certificate from the magazine ad and how many Churches accept that credential.

 

[he-man]

I wonder how long it takes to get the pastor certificate from the magazine ad and how many Churches accept that credential.

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[DrBubbaLove]

Someone who is sleeping the sleep of the dead and never wakes up can only be said to be still sleeping - how that becomes non-existence is the point. A person cannot be said to be "sleeping" and also non-existent. Must be one or the other, not both.

How that addresses how long it takes to get a "preacher" certificate from the back of a magazine am unsure. I knew a guy in college that had one and I think it only took a couple of weeks.

 

[Der Alte]

Someone who is sleeping the sleep of the dead and never wakes up can only be said to be still sleeping - how that becomes non-existence is the point. A person cannot be said to be "sleeping" and also non-existent. Must be one or the other, not both.

How that addresses how long it takes to get a "preacher" certificate from the back of a magazine am unsure. I knew a guy in college that had one and I think it only took a couple of weeks.

I know two pastors, in the Bluegrass state, who got doctorates from the back of a magazine for a joke.

 

[he-man]

Someone who is sleeping the sleep of the dead and never wakes up can only be said to be still sleeping - how that becomes non-existence is the point. A person cannot be said to be "sleeping" and also non-existent. Must be one or the other, not both.

Then please explain how you can sleep in the sleep of death and not wake and it not be perpetual? Romans 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Psa 13:3 Consider and heare me, O Lord my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleepe of death.
And some have ears to hear but hear not! Jer 51:39 In their heat I will make their feasts, and I will make them drunken, that they may reioyce, and sleepe a perpetuall sleepe, and not wake, saith the Lord.

Apparently you are not aware that it was spoken only to believers and not to the wicked and how could dead people be judged if they were not awakened They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years but some already haue their reward and into smoke shall they consume away?

Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambes: they shall consume: into smoke shall they consume away.

Rev 20:12 And I sawe the dead, small and great, stand before God: and the books were opened: & another booke was opened, which is the booke of life: and the dead were iudged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Psalm 62:11 God has spoken once, Twice I have heard this: That power belongs to God.
(12) Also to You, O Lord, belongs mercy; For You render to each one according to His work

Mat 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they loue to pray standing in the Synagogues, and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seene of men. Uerily I say vnto you, they haue their reward.

Rev 21:8 But the fearefull, and vnbeleeuing, and the abominable, and murderers, and harlot mongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all lyars, shall haue their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Rev 20 Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded [/u]for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God,[/u] and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years

Rev 20:15 And whosoeuer was not found written in the booke of life, was cast into the lake of fire. Rev 21:8 which is the second death.

Got MILK? Are you thirsty and do you HUNGER?
Eze 39:20 Thus yee shall be filled at my table with horses and charets, with mightie men, and with all men of warre, saith the Lord God.

Rev 19:18 That yee may eate the flesh of Kings, and the flesh of Captaines, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men both free and bond, both small and great.

Rev 19:17 And I saw an Angel standing in the Sunne, and hee cried with a lowd voyce, saying to all the foules that flie in the midst of heauen, Come and gather your selues together vnto the supper of the great God:

No devil, no hell fire just annihilation for the wicked.
1 Corinthians 2:13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the [Unatural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he k]Holy Spirit teaches[/U], comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (14) But the now them, because they are spiritually discerned. (15) But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. [NKJV]

Mat 13:28 And he saith to them, A man, an enemy, did this; and the servants said to him, Wilt thou, then, that having gone away we may gather it up? [YLT][DARBY] [BULLINGER][GNT-V]
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares in the wheat, and went his way
28 And he said unto them, ‘A man, an enemy did this.’ The servants said unto him, ‘Wilt thou then that we go and collect them together ?’
Bullinger notes: 28 He = And he. An enemy = A man an enemy. Fig. Pleonasm(Ap. 6), for emphasis. hath done = did.

Mat 13:28 ο δε εφη αυτοις εχθρος ανθρωπος τουτο εποιησεν οι δε δουλοι Aλεγουσιν TSBειπον αυτω θελεις ουν απελθοντες Bσυλλεξομεν TSAσυλλεξωμεν αυτα [GNT-V]

 

[Mediate]

Rethinking Hell | Exploring Evangelical Conditionalism (Annihilationism)

Lets start here, John 3:35-36 - ""The Father loves the Son and has given all things into His hand. 36"He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.""

The Wrath of God is not Life, So wrath of God is Death to those who harm others(1 John 3) who are Lawless of Matthew 7:12

Wrath of God means basically the Justice of God, not madness, read The Word, Strong's Greek: 3709. ὀργή (orgé) -- impulse, wrath means to stop evil/oppose evil(which is harm)

Meaning the wrath of God is a mistranslation and actually means Justice/ending evil(harm)(For lack of a better word)


Those who do not Treat others the same way they would want others to treat them(Matthew 7:12) will not see Life, they will cease to exist.


Now, lets go to what Eternal Fire/Lake of Fire terms mean because alot of people simply believe in the World(Colossians 2:20-23) rather than The Apostles & Prophets who are of YHWH,

Jude 1:7 - "just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

Sodom and Gomorrah no longer exist, that city was annihilated, and That is according to Jude 1:7 The example of Eternal Fire, Eternal Fire means Death, hence the Term Eternal Fire, the Fire has Eternal consequences, Nonexistence. Fire burns out it doesn't keep burning, it annihilates.

Revelation 20:14 - "Then death and Hades(Hell) were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire."

The Lake of fire isn't some literal lake, it's defined clear cut, no excuses, "This is the second death, the lake of fire"

Then we have people claiming this supports eternal torment, Matthew 25:46 - ""These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.""

However this assumes that Punishments means eternal torment, that's Assuming Eternal Torment into the text, as Punishment can also mean Death, add that with the fact that Torture is never ever used as punishment in the bible, in the Old or New Testament, but Death is, even stoning was made painless, as it rendered you unconscious( Jewish Law - Legal Briefs ("Bryan v. Moore2") )

It just proves that Annihilation is true, it's so clear, "but the righteous into eternal life" The Righteous get Eternal life, not those who get punished,

the ones who get punished Do Not get what The Righteous get, which is Eternal Life, they do not get Eternal Life, if they do not get Life/Existence, then their Dead/They don't exist.

They will cease to exist forever.

So that proves annihilation as well,


Then people use, revelation 14:11, "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever." but that's also refuted as the term was used in the Old testament to describe something that Did Not last forever and ever.

Explicit Mistakes: A Response to Matt Chandler | Rethinking Hell



The Isaiah passage referred to in that quote is, Isaiah 34:10.

So there you have it, not one passage of eternal torment, YHWH said Love your enemies(Matthew 5:42-48),

The Law is Matthew 7:12 - "Therefore in Everything, Treat others the same way you would want them to treat you, for this Is the Law and the Prophets" - Jesus Christ(YHWH)

YHWH(The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit) would never refuse to do this, as He Is Love(1 John 4:8) and He Does not Sin(James 1:13, 1 John 3:4) He cannot nor will ever be Lawless of Matthew 7:12

Eternal Torment is false and nowhere found in The Bible.

Justice is not always a game of opposites. Earthly obliteration does not equal obliteration from eternity. And 'life' for those who do good things does not equate to 'death' for those who do bad, at least not in the eternal sense.

God, from the very first spark of human life, has given Earthly, temporan consequences for misdeed. To Cain, he gave an Earthly curse, to Adam and Eve, a temporal death, to Sodom and Gamorrah, a worldy destruction. Nothing in any of the old testament indicates eternal punishment for Earthly sins.

In fact, we are told that 'god has imprisoned mankind in disobedience that he may have mercy on all'.

We are also told that sin and death will be abolished come the end. How can sin and death be abolished if some die to eternity? In an eternal sense, there has been eternal deaths. There must only be temporal deaths if death is to be abolished in the eternal sense. Eternity is from beyond beginning to never-ending.

To those who are righteous, life pervades them, to those who are not, sin will be abolished in flame.

Flames do not leave nothing, flames leave smoke and ash.

'And the smoke riseth for eternity'.

The smoke is a witness to the end of sin and the end of death. All temporal things, all perish-ability, all endings will become annulled.

It means that even those who were once sinful ewill be liberated from the prison of temptation, sin and death and become immortal beings, seeing in a reflection no longer faded, in fullness.

We are told christ is the 'image of God', which means that he is the mirror against which we stand adjudged. To see it in fullness is to comprehend as he comprehends. In comprehending as he comprehends, 'each are rendered according to their deeds'. rendering is a process of changing something from one form to another, and it is generally regarded as irreversible.

What is seen that can be unseen? What is heard that can be unheard?

Every single person who has ever lived will rise at the judgement and undergo this viewing of themselves, when 'all the motives of the heart' are revealed.

For those who are righteous, there need be no ash, but to those caught up in deceit, desire and ill-will, there will be an undertaking. They will be of changed mind, and thus, part of them will have been turned to 'ashes', and 'the smoke riseth for eternity'.

 

[lesliedellow]

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matt 25.46)

And don't tell me that αιωνιος doesn't mean everlasting. It is used with precisely that meaning in Romans 16.26, not to mention the Septuagint.

 

[Mediate]

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matt 25.46)

And don't tell me that αιωνιος doesn't mean everlasting. It is used with precisely that meaning in Romans 16.26, not to mention the Septuagint.

It's okay. Neither you nor I are entering hell. With such ideal in mind, what is the next step?